It is time to put a timer on mana pot usage

[Missing_Minds]

Every last person that uses SP potions, and every last person that relies on anybody else that plays a spellcaster at any time to cast spells.

ANYONE that gets hit by enfeeblestupid repeatedly and wants to remove it.

[Qhualor]

Part of the raid mechanic is an SP drain attack that is meant to teach people with blue bars not to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. It is meant as a punishment for not playing the raid 'properly' and apparently it only warrants - at its worst - a 'time out'

Shroud phase 4 has a mechanic where if you die you have to wait until the phase is over before you can be raised. Again, just another form of 'time out'.

Ok. That part of the raid i can see adding an interesting and fun challenge, but i dont think its a good design to recall and reenter a raid. Not much of a penalty it seems to me. Its like ddooring in Chrono at the end fight where 1 blue bar at a time replenish mana and run back, but at least you are still in the raid.

[MrkGrismer]

Ok. That part of the raid i can see adding an interesting and fun challenge, but i dont think its a good design to recall and reenter a raid. Not much of a penalty it seems to me. Its like ddooring in Chrono at the end fight where 1 blue bar at a time replenish mana and run back, but at least you are still in the raid.

I am not sure if that is WAI. I would not be surprised if it got 'fixed' in the future.

You bring up a pretty good aside there about the Chrono thing tho, there are always alternatives. Even if SP pots were totally removed people would just have added incentive to grind out Con-ops, Torqs and Baubles. As it stands at least those things are optional. If SP potions were removed or seriously 'nerfed' they would become considerably more 'essential' and those of us that don't want to run the same quest a hundred times to get those items might decide to look at a different game, as I simply do not have enough 'discretionary time' to grind that junk out.

[Aashrym]

Consider there are store bought and there are in game farmed.

If we ponder, and be generous that most post drinkers will be healers, lets just say this for sake of easy numbers.

50% of drinkers use store, 50% use in game.
75% of drinkers are healers, 25% are blasters.

How about VIPs that get a constant stipend of points? Shall we say that 40% of players are VIP?

So out of our original 100% of drinking players, only 22.5% are buying them out of the store via their wallet. We didn't even touch the rate at which they are drunk.
We can further shrink the idea of this supposedly large number if we bother to make more assumptions of how many players are active casters (I am not including rangers, paladins, fighters, barb, etc. Artis and bards are included.) vs. non casters that are being played.
Also add in level ranges. How many pots do you actually bother drinking in low levels vs high vs. epics?

I honestly don't think we are looking at a huge number of people buying out of the store and drinking, and I think I was being very generous with made up numbers for this supposition.

I stated it before that I am against further timers being put on pots. The other games that have such timers put on pots also allow their characters complete regeneration of hit points/spell points after any fight, let alone regen during the fight. This game does not.
If you want to up your game, then find other like minded people.

I don't know how much we're looking at for store bought potions, but as stated earlier I don't buy them and they are easy enough to stock up. The VIP stipend points don't actually seem to add up to much monthly unlees I ignore them for a while.

If not a lot of store potions are being purchased the need for the revenue objection against SP potions or restrictions becomes a weaker objection since the revenue becomes smaller. I am not actually convinces revenues would drop in the first place with a small change; only the rate of consumption.

Timers don't actually affect how many potions a person can drink in the quest and that means the SP will still be there. It only limits how fast it will be there a slow things down a bit.

Other games don't have follow the premise of massively powerful spells that cover defense, offense, and healing when they allow for mana regen so that becomes apples to oranges, in my opinion.

If you are asking me specifically how many I drink I would answer that I don't recall ever drinking more than 3 or 4, and it was so I could maintain DoT's on shroud part 4 on a wizard when I was the only member of the group who hadn't died to blades right after the surprise bug fix. I don't drink them to heal except on rare occasion, never buy off the store, never buy off the AH, and don't actually bother to farm them and still end up with more than I use. I sell them on the AH or trade them if there is something I want occasionally.

So in me experience there are simply too many of them floating around too easily and impacting a restriction. I don't think it's really appropriate to be able to recover a raid simply buy guzzling potions; that's an indication they are overpowered to me.

It doesn't matter to me if it's a short timer (I was only thinking 20 or 30 seconds up to a minute as a stretch), or a hard cap based on intended difficulty (so for the expectation part the range drops from 0-unlimited to 0-x which is where balancing for that expectation becomes easier for development), a decrease in drop rates (this is actually my preferred choice and I'd rather see a mass heal scroll instead for less impact on healers and more restrictions on what the drop actually does), or something else possibly.

To me the number of SP potions available seem to have gotten away from the intent.

[Aashrym]

ANYONE that gets hit by enfeeblestupid repeatedly and wants to remove it.

We don't actually need it to be a major and 300 SP to go with it for that though. Most potions used are for SP and not feeblemind, although I agree it's good to point out that use.

[Chai]

Consider there are store bought and there are in game farmed.

If we ponder, and be generous that most post drinkers will be healers, lets just say this for sake of easy numbers.

50% of drinkers use store, 50% use in game.
75% of drinkers are healers, 25% are blasters.

How about VIPs that get a constant stipend of points? Shall we say that 40% of players are VIP?

So out of our original 100% of drinking players, only 22.5% are buying them out of the store via their wallet. We didn't even touch the rate at which they are drunk.
We can further shrink the idea of this supposedly large number if we bother to make more assumptions of how many players are active casters (I am not including rangers, paladins, fighters, barb, etc. Artis and bards are included.) vs. non casters that are being played.
Also add in level ranges. How many pots do you actually bother drinking in low levels vs high vs. epics?

I honestly don't think we are looking at a huge number of people buying out of the store and drinking, and I think I was being very generous with made up numbers for this supposition.

I stated it before that I am against further timers being put on pots. The other games that have such timers put on pots also allow their characters complete regeneration of hit points/spell points after any fight, let alone regen during the fight. This game does not.
If you want to up your game, then find other like minded people.

Those other games also have timers and cooldowns on their spells, so there is a specific rate at which healing type spells can be cast, which is part of where the inherant game balance limitations come from. In DDO, with a few cure spells and a heal spell up, people can rotate through them with the global cooldown only and never have a situation where they cant cast a cure or heal due to cooldown of the spell timer.

Other MMO
1 low output spell instant cast with 10 second cooldown
1 low output spell 2 second cast with 1 second cooldown
1 mid-higher output spell 5 second cast with 10 second cooldown
1 high output LOH type spell, 30 min cooldown.

DDO
CLW instant cast 1s cooldown
CMW instant cast 1s cooldown
CSW instant cast 1s cooldown
CCW instant cast 1s cooldown
Heal instant cast 1s cooldown
Mass versions of all with mass heal being the only one that takes significant time to cast.

Damage spells are balanced the same way in other MMOs -vs- DDO. This is why endless supply of mana potions available is MORE unbalancing in DDO.

Ive already debunked this notion that 50% of mana pot guzzlers are supplied by in game potions. I posted the breakdown of current mana potions on 3 different servers AH at the time I made the post. Theres no way the AH is supplying abusers as fast as they guzzle. We played DDO for more than 3 years before the store was put in, and mana potions were far less part of peoples gaming experience than they are now.

[Forzah]

A hourly timer for posting on these forums... yea, that would be nice!

[Chai]

To me the number of SP potions available seem to have gotten away from the intent.

I agree, and theres two solutions to that.

1. Limit potions. Enforce the sacred game balance that was always brought up in previous game mechanic discussions.
2. Change the intent. Balance? These accounting ledgers are balancing just fine thanks.

Game balance seemed to be the intent in the past when we had these discussions about specific game mechanics, but when most people who disagree with my stance recently post, most of them are citing the economic reason for keeping p2w game mechanics in the store.

[Forzah]

I agree, and theres two solutions to that.

1. Limit potions. Enforce the sacred game balance that was always brought up in previous game mechanic discussions.
2. Change the intent. Balance? These accounting ledgers are balancing just fine thanks.

Game balance seemed to be the intent in the past when we had these discussions about specific game mechanics, but when most people who disagree with my stance recently post, most of them are citing the economic reason for keeping p2w game mechanics in the store.

You seem to be living in a somewhat different reality. In 2 years playing (almost constantly pugging) I've only encountered one person constantly chugging potions. He was a pretty terrible player, too. Store potions are really a non-problem, at most 1 out of 100 players buy them and constantly drink them. The real problem is the inherently overpowered ability of casters.

[Chai]

You seem to be living in a somewhat different reality. In 2 years playing (almost constantly pugging) I've only encountered one person constantly chugging potions. He was a pretty terrible player, too. Store potions are really a non-problem, at most 1 out of 100 players buys them and constantly drinks them. The real problem is not the store pots, but the inherently overpowered abilities of casters.

This is by far incorrect. I play on three servers and have seen people carried through both quest and raid content quite a bit with mana potions.

Overpowered casters would be limited by their mana without unlimited supply of p2w mana potions, which is exactly what the devs claimed right after the caster revamp. Since the damage wasnt sustainable, it was balanced, which would be true if it werent for unlimited supply of mana potions.

[cpito]

If you are asking me specifically how many I drink I would answer that I don't recall ever drinking more than 3 or 4, and it was so I could maintain DoT's on shroud part 4 on a wizard when I was the only member of the group who hadn't died to blades right after the surprise bug fix. I don't drink them to heal except on rare occasion, never buy off the store, never buy off the AH, and don't actually bother to farm them and still end up with more than I use. I sell them on the AH or trade them if there is something I want occasionally.

So in me experience there are simply too many of them floating around too easily and impacting a restriction. I don't think it's really appropriate to be able to recover a raid simply buy guzzling potions; that's an indication they are overpowered to me.

It doesn't matter to me if it's a short timer (I was only thinking 20 or 30 seconds up to a minute as a stretch), or a hard cap based on intended difficulty (so for the expectation part the range drops from 0-unlimited to 0-x which is where balancing for that expectation becomes easier for development), a decrease in drop rates (this is actually my preferred choice and I'd rather see a mass heal scroll instead for less impact on healers and more restrictions on what the drop actually does), or something else possibly.

To me the number of SP potions available seem to have gotten away from the intent.

You do realize that the first paragraphs I quoted basically say "This is how I play so I think everyone else should play this way too"? I rarely use mana pots myself and have a fairly large hoard of them without farming. I like having them at my disposal for emergency situations. I even keep some on my fighters so I can reimburse healers and casters for impressive play that pulls the group's collective ass out of the fire. Didn't you feel good when you did it in that shroud 4? Some of the best times I've had playing this game have involved completing the seemingly impossible or coming back from a sure wipe. For me, this is an integral part of the game.

What constitutes recovering a raid simply by blowing pots? At what point is a raid blown? When half the party is down? Three-quarters? When the mana is gone?Should 11 people give up the fight because the first healer is oom and the second dc'ed? Is it over if the boss is 90% down and the whole party is alive but the only healer misjudged and is oom? Who decides when a raid is blown?

What happens to people who enjoy soloing? Why shouldn't they get to try soloing a raid? Why shouldn't they be allowed to quaff sp pots to do it?

Again, it comes back to there being too many variables in the way people like to play and it takes a narrow-minded person to think that thier way is the ONLY way.

[smatt]

I agree, and theres two solutions to that.

1. Limit potions. Enforce the sacred game balance that was always brought up in previous game mechanic discussions.
2. Change the intent. Balance? These accounting ledgers are balancing just fine thanks.

Game balance seemed to be the intent in the past when we had these discussions about specific game mechanics, but when most people who disagree with my stance recently post, most of them are citing the economic reason for keeping p2w game mechanics in the store.

There is not now nor has there ever been "Game balance" between the classes.. Period end of story...... No matter how many times you say it, it never existed in DDO. The blaance has always been shifting between various classes, builds, races. And SP pots NEVER had anything to do with balance. Not when you can easily recall out and get SP in most quests. I had my concerns about SP way back when they added quest re-entry in the mid Mod 4 days. But that game is gone...

Fido meet to wrong tree yet again

And there certainly are economic reason to leave thngs as is in this regard..... The game you want is dead, and was most certainly economically speaking a failure.... Once you get it in your head that DDO is a business and not some free fantasy experience for people trying to be something special they aren't in real life... Well, you might understand.... Thjis game that you and Matt seem to think you can re-create didn't even draw the paultry population the current game does. I liked old Mod 3-4ish DDO a lot.. I liked the steep learning curve.... I liked spending time teaching others, as well as learning from others.... In my travels accross Stormreach as well as Eveningstar, I find FAR few peopel who are willing to teach, as well as people willing to learn.... The game is far bigger now with vast amounts to learn.

In short this change putting a timer on SP pots would do nothing to encourage people to learn the game better as Matt has tried to put forth. Nor woudl it do anything aobut game balance... All it would do is make quests longer and more annoying for thsoe that do drink pots whether it's often or occasionally, as well as those that are in the same groups...... It would chase even more people away....

So I suggest you and Matt run along into your little fantasy and play the game YOU want to play and let others play the game they want to play. You see whether SP pots have a timer or not YOUR game won't change at all.... Well except the population would be even smaller......

[Forzah]

This is by far incorrect. I play on three servers and have seen people carried through both quest and raid content quite a bit with mana potions.

Overpowered casters would be limited by their mana without unlimited supply of p2w mana potions, which is exactly what the devs claimed right after the caster revamp. Since the damage wasnt sustainable, it was balanced, which would be true if it werent for unlimited supply of mana potions.

Sure, I've seen people drink a few potions when things got out of hand, but I've only once seen someone excessively chug pots just to dish out more damage. I can't believe anyone would spend so much money on killing a boss a minute faster....

In most quests and at most moments, the blue bar does not limit a caster at all. If you play very efficiently, you will find that most of the time you up with almost half your mana bar left. Store-pots hardly even come into the equation for good players. The casters are not overpowered because of potions, but because they can do high damage without being hit, combined with superior self-healing.

[Hokiewa]

This is by far incorrect. I play on three servers and have seen people carried through both quest and raid content quite a bit with mana potions.

He is not incorrect. His observations of his experiance are no less accurate or believable as your own. Thinking otherwise is hilarious

[Forzah]

He is not incorrect. His observations of his experiance are no less accurate or believable as your own. Thinking otherwise is hilarious

Reading my sentence again, it more or less seems that I claim only once seeing someone use a potion . I meant "abuse of mana potions", which is very arbitrary notion. Maybe for Chai using a single potion is already cheating...

Some of the best times I've had playing this game have involved completing the seemingly impossible or coming back from a sure wipe. For me, this is an integral part of the game.

Yea I agree. I'd hate to lose the opportunity to make a comeback from a completely screwed situation. Those are by far the best times I've had in the game. Especially in part 3 of ToD.

[MrkGrismer]

This is by far incorrect. I play on three servers and have seen people carried through both quest and raid content quite a bit with mana potions.

And, objectively, what percentage of the player base do you truly believe that represents?

[Hokiewa]

And, objectively, what percentage of the player base do you truly believe that represents?

Lol, you owe me one cup of coffee for that one pesky word....in context...."objectively"

[Forzah]

And, objectively, what percentage of the player base do you truly believe that represents?

Everyone but himself, 99.9997% .

[daikliave]

well if you want SP potions on a timer then you must also want a timer on weapon attacking also right?

[Forzah]

Objectively, it's probably between 0% and 0.5%.