Paladin Tank with DPS

[Jasparion]

For life number 5 I have settled on Paladin, and with our group having no proper healer this life, figure a somewhat defensive based Paladin would be a good idea.

So I have settled on Human 2 Fighter / 18 Paladin with DoS as my Pre. Fighter levels taken at 7 and 14.

Str 16 - 24 (+3 tome, +5 level ups)
Dex 8 - 10 (+2 tome)
Con 16 - 18 (+2 tome)
Int 11 - 14 (+3 tome)
Wis 9 - 11 (+2 tome)
Cha 16 - 18 (+2 tome)

I figure its better to end on an odd number for Wisdom, which really only is there to help with spells.

In order, Feats would be:
Toughness, THF, Power Attack, ITHF, Shield Mastery, IC Slash, IC Pierce or Ex. Dw. Axe, GTHF, Maximise, Imp Shield Mastery

For the most part I will be using 2 Handed weapons - Carnifex/Antique Greataxe, Bloody Cleaver, Vampiric Bloody Cleaver, possibly a Tier 2 Greensteel Falchion, and stuff I can craft. I will S&B for the encounters where we really need the defence. I have Arrondi and Light and Darkness - but sadly no Madstone Shield, despite SO MANY runs.

My decision on IC Pierce or Ex. Dw. Axe comes down to whether I think I will get more use out of my Lit 2 Rapier, Turbulent Epee, WoP Rapier, CC Short Sword, Envenomed Blade, and other assorted Rapiers and Short Swords, or whether I will get more use out of the very limited named Dwarven Axes I own, plus whatever I craft. I have until level 12 to decide this, so there is no rush.

In terms of skills, it will be Intim, Jump, Bal, then as my Int goes up I include Spot or something else, then when Balance gets to 15, I will swap it out for more Spot, or something else.

I will be using White Dragonscale from 14, plus Parasitic for the times when Reflex is more important than PRR.

Are there any obvious flaws in what I have chosen? I suspect my big decision will be whether to take IC Pierce or Exotic Dwarven Axe at 12. But is there anything else I should look at?

The rest of the group will be made up with: Ranger, Artificer, another Paladin. So our self heals should be pretty decent, but I think we could have some trouble with our DPS.

[Jasparion]

Plenty of views but no opinions.

Any thoughts on whether I go Imp Crit Pierce and take advantage of my Lit 2 Rapier, or do I go for Dwarven Axe and take advantage of GTHF ?

[darkovac]

You would have to have Dwarven Axe proficiency... Only dwarfs gets that as Martial weapon others have to invest the feat in that. Don't know if that is good option, if you are spending a feat for it and want singlehanded THF weapon check also Bastard Sword (I'm not playing Paladin but it seems to me that there are some nice Bastard Sword options for them).

Second thing, since you are mentioning GTHF... I hope that you at least considered Cleave and Great Cleave.

[unbongwah]

Personally I would take ftr splashes at lvls 1 & 8 to get the feats sooner; that way you could do, say, Toughness (1), THF (1), Power Atk (ftr 1), Shield Mastery (3), ITHF (6), IC:Slash (8), ISM (9), GTHF (12), then the rest. Are you planning on running epics with this char or TRing again as soon as you hit 20? Cleave & GC are nice for mobs, but they're also pre-reqs for Overwhelming Crit, so they're definitely worth considering.

Normally I'd say glancing blows from d.axe or b.sword are more important for S&B tanks than greater crit range of rapiers; but I don't know if it's worth bothering to grind out new weapons, esp. if you just plan to TR again.

[Purkilius]

I second what unbongwah is saying, played with a build like that the other day and he had the Bastard sword from the new raid and was doing really good dps for a Paladin.

[Jasparion]

We will spend the time it takes to get 20 tokens worth of fragments to buy the next TR, so I wont be progressing too far in to the Epic realm.

As for BS vs DA vs IC Pierce... I think I will be more likely to get good DA over BS, plus for my fighter life there is always a chance I will go Dwarf, meaning I will again get good use out of the DA.

W.R.T Cleave and Great Cleave - I really dont know how I fit them in to the build. I could drop Maximise, but then my self healing from level 15+ takes a huge hit - in a group where we have no proper healer (the Arty can Heal scroll but he is a very myopic player so will really only be good for healing outside of combat). And that still leaves me something else to drop. Maybe the DA or IC Pierce I guess.

Though if the main benefit is for Epic levels then I could always LR at 21, if we decide to spend more time there.

[Ralmeth]

In general, I think your build looks good. I do agree with Unbongwah to take your Fighter levels at level 1 and 8 so you can pick feats in the order he recommends (this is the order I would take them as well).

Other than that, if it were me I would bump int to 12 and wisdom down to 8. Starting wisdom at 8 isn't a big deal, and starting int at 12 will get you some extra skill points to play with. But this isn't going to make a big difference either way.

[Jasparion]

I have a +3 tome for Int so figured starting with an odd number means I end up on an even number.

[Nodoze]

For life number 5 I have settled on Paladin, and with our group having no proper healer this life, figure a somewhat defensive based Paladin would be a good idea.
...
In order, Feats would be:
Toughness, THF, Power Attack, ITHF, Shield Mastery, IC Slash, IC Pierce or Ex. Dw. Axe, GTHF, Maximise, Imp Shield Mastery

For the most part I will be using 2 Handed weapons - Carnifex/Antique Greataxe, Bloody Cleaver, Vampiric Bloody Cleaver, possibly a Tier 2 Greensteel Falchion, and stuff I can craft. I will S&B for the encounters where we really need the defence. I have Arrondi and Light and Darkness - but sadly no Madstone Shield, despite SO MANY runs.
...
Are there any obvious flaws in what I have chosen? I suspect my big decision will be whether to take IC Pierce or Exotic Dwarven Axe at 12. But is there anything else I should look at?

The rest of the group will be made up with: Ranger, Artificer, another Paladin. So our self heals should be pretty decent, but I think we could have some trouble with our DPS.

Curious how hard it is to self heal as the tank with aggro. If you are tanking and self healing you may want to take Quicken to stack with your Maximize over IC Pierce or Ex. Dw. Axe.

When equipping a Bastard Sword on my Paladin I only saw a -4 to attack so if that is the only downside and you only plan to S&B infrequently maybe just use the Dwarven Axe without proficiency.

[Feithlin]

Curious how hard it is to self heal as the tank with aggro. If you are tanking and self healing you may want to take Quicken to stack with your Maximize over IC Pierce or Ex. Dw. Axe.

When equipping a Bastard Sword on my Paladin I only saw a -4 to attack so if that is the only downside and you only plan to S&B infrequently maybe just use the Dwarven Axe without proficiency.

Using a weapon without proficiency also negates the +20% to-hit chance granted to player characters.

[Nodoze]

Using a weapon without proficiency also negates the +20% to-hit chance granted to player characters.

Didn't see that on my character sheet nor on the expanded inventory tab that showed the +'s to hit. Is there any way to see that in game?

Edit: Are you referring to Glancing Blows or Grazing hits?

Edit2: Though I still don't know how to see it in game, I think I found what you were referring to in this thread:

"This is the new (post u14) attack equation... Attack Bonus + Ave d20 roll of 10,5 / Target’s AC) /2 = X% +20% if you’re using a proficient weapon.

So if your attack bonus is 70 and the target ac is 60

Non-proficient -> ((70 + 10,5)/60)/2 = ,67

Proficient -> ((70 + 10,5)/60)/2 = ,67 + ,20 = ,87

They round so ... the proficeint = hit on a 2 the non-proficient = hit on a 6. (being proficient in this case means 4 more hits on average every 20 swings)

and if your attack bonus is 60 and the target ac is 60

Non-proficient -> ((60 + 10,5)/60)/2 = ,5875

proficient -> ((60 + 10,5)/60)/2 = ,5875 + ,20 = ,80 - rounded

The proficient character hits on 4 while the non-proficient hits on 8. "

[C-Shell]

I second what unbongwah is saying, played with a build like that the other day and he had the Bastard sword from the new raid and was doing really good dps for a Paladin.

that might have been me (Torquato)


i recently lesser reinc. my pally and got rid of combat expertise and any metamagic feats because of the experience i mad when playing him. regenerating lay on hands was just more than enough to keep me alive in combination with the life i get from the new bastard sword. and i felt my ac is high enough (130-140 depending on buffs) without combat expertise. i dont know if there are quests or raids, where you totally need combat expertise. im just saying that i never needed it (tanked suulo on elite and both healers went home with more than half their spellpoints). i really feel like its better to build a pally with int as dump stat and get high enough ac anyway.
my pally wasnt really doing any damage at all before. now (with the help of that new bastard sword of course and a new feat lineup), im easily able to solo epic hard demonweb quests. (ca 1000hp, saves are ca 65/45/45 and 130-140 ac).

i highly recommend to take the full thf line, as well as cleave and great cleave and shield mastery and improved shield mastery for the bonus to dobule strike) i even swapped out improved critical recently because the Nightmare, The Full Moon already has it. and my mineral 2 harry beater has it too. im doing more damage in s+b mode than with my next best thf weapon (Cleaver greataxe from caught in the web), so i rarely use anything other than the nightmare+ towershield

other feats that might be useful: skill focus intimidation, extend spell (i got that instead of improved critical now), bastard sword prof, bulwark of defense(i got that too), force of personality, lesser dragonmark of sentinel or maybe the metamagic you wanted to have anyway.

i have a lot of fun playing my pally now. i hit intimdate and start pressing cleave, greate cleave and momentum swing all the time. all mobs around me are constantly getting their level reduction and even die before i start to focus on them. on epic hard, which is the difficulty that i play most and that probablly is played most, i dont lose health at all. when soloing some epichard quests, i often enough dont even need a single lay on hands on myself. my defense and the nightmare bastard sword do the job for me. its not uncommon for me to be the killleader (as was the case in my last epicelite von5 run).

hope i could help

edit: im just seeing that i probablly missed the point of your build and you dont want an endgame build but a nice leveling up build. well sorry. hope you can do something with my post nonetheless

[Nodoze]

that might have been me (Torquato)


i recently lesser reinc. my pally and got rid of combat expertise and any metamagic feats because of the experience i mad when playing him. regenerating lay on hands was just more than enough to keep me alive in combination with the life i get from the new bastard sword. and i felt my ac is high enough (130-140 depending on buffs) without combat expertise. i dont know if there are quests or raids, where you totally need combat expertise. im just saying that i never needed it (tanked suulo on elite and both healers went home with more than half their spellpoints). i really feel like its better to build a pally with int as dump stat and get high enough ac anyway.
my pally wasnt really doing any damage at all before. now (with the help of that new bastard sword of course and a new feat lineup), im easily able to solo epic hard demonweb quests. (ca 1000hp, saves are ca 65/45/45 and 130-140 ac).

i highly recommend to take the full thf line, as well as cleave and great cleave and shield mastery and improved shield mastery for the bonus to dobule strike) i even swapped out improved critical recently because the Nightmare, The Full Moon already has it. and my mineral 2 harry beater has it too. im doing more damage in s+b mode than with my next best thf weapon (Cleaver greataxe from caught in the web), so i rarely use anything other than the nightmare+ towershield

other feats that might be useful: skill focus intimidation, extend spell (i got that instead of improved critical now), bastard sword prof, bulwark of defense(i got that too), force of personality, lesser dragonmark of sentinel or maybe the metamagic you wanted to have anyway.

i have a lot of fun playing my pally now. i hit intimdate and start pressing cleave, greate cleave and momentum swing all the time. all mobs around me are constantly getting their level reduction and even die before i start to focus on them. on epic hard, which is the difficulty that i play most and that probablly is played most, i dont lose health at all. when soloing some epichard quests, i often enough dont even need a single lay on hands on myself. my defense and the nightmare bastard sword do the job for me. its not uncommon for me to be the killleader (as was the case in my last epicelite von5 run).

hope i could help

edit: im just seeing that i probablly missed the point of your build and you dont want an endgame build but a nice leveling up build. well sorry. hope you can do something with my post nonetheless

Thanks for sharing. I am curious what your twists besides momentum swing are? Did you also take Lay Waste? What else did you take?

[C-Shell]

im a casual player, so i dont really wanna grind much items or xp. the only other thing i unlocked is a tier 1 monk ability, that gives me 3% dodge. but i need to throw that out next time because the cloak of night gives me doge, too. would probablly try to aim for lithe from the shadowdancer destiny.
i dont know what the other destinies really offer. i probablly should search for something to boost my dps even more. can you even slot tier 3 twists? because lay waste+ momentum swing at the same time would indeed be freaking awesome. it certainly was when i played him in the dreadnought destiny.

[unbongwah]

the only other thing i unlocked is a tier 1 monk ability, that gives me 3% dodge. but i need to throw that out next time because the cloak of night gives me doge, too.

The ED and cloak should stack for 6% Dodge (if your MDB is high enough); no need to drop it.

can you even slot tier 3 twists? because lay waste+ momentum swing at the same time would indeed be freaking awesome.

Twists can go up to tier 4, though they get progressively more expensive to unlock and right now the max Fate Points you can have is 18 (16 from 48 ED lvls + 2 Tome of Fate from DDO Store). Unlocking a tier 2 & tier 3 slots for LW+MS would cost 11 FPs (->33 ED lvls). So you have to be reaaaally dedicated to truly exploit the Twists system; pretty fiendish way to feed off their players' OCD.

[Nodoze]

im a casual player, so i dont really wanna grind much items or xp. the only other thing i unlocked is a tier 1 monk ability, that gives me 3% dodge. but i need to throw that out next time because the cloak of night gives me doge, too. would probablly try to aim for lithe from the shadowdancer destiny.
i dont know what the other destinies really offer. i probablly should search for something to boost my dps even more. can you even slot tier 3 twists? because lay waste+ momentum swing at the same time would indeed be freaking awesome. it certainly was when i played him in the dreadnought destiny.

The ED and cloak should stack for 6% Dodge (if your MDB is high enough); no need to drop it.
Twists can go up to tier 4, though they get progressively more expensive to unlock and right now the max Fate Points you can have is 18 (16 from 48 ED lvls + 2 Tome of Fate from DDO Store). Unlocking a tier 2 & tier 3 slots for LW+MS would cost 11 FPs (->33 ED lvls). So you have to be reaaaally dedicated to truly exploit the Twists system; pretty fiendish way to feed off their players' OCD.

Yeah we have limited play time & multiple members of our group hate grinding so the grind for twists is a real pain (especially as being off destiny changes your capabilities substantially)... Our Pally may be stuck with Momentum Swing only as he hates being out of US destiny and we like him in Tank mode. My cleric is EA and the 'Brace for impact' is an obvious & easy tier 1 twist from neighboring US and otherwise I like the EA destiny for my cleric. At some point I may be willing to grind across the others to get Momentum Swing & maybe Lay Waste and try some battle cleric fun while healing but it isn't a high priority right now as we mainly do Epic Hard and my DCs can hit there.

If you do grind destinies, the XP goes up per substantially per tier/level so only doing 1-3 around the full horn may be faster and only going to the 4th tier to jump destinies or if you really want a particular 4th tier twist.