Guild Renown Changes

[Gremmlynn]

EDIT: To my mind the DEVs borked the system by not taking into account the psychology behind the guild system. As Long as only the best of the best ever would have been able to get to lv. 100 and big guilds got stopped in their 70ies to 80ies, while most small guilds found the stop somewhere between lv. 40 and lv. 100, there was no big difference between small and big. Both got smacked by the system. Most small guilds never ever could even dream of reaching the upper Levels. Most big guilds while reaching the best buffs (lv. 63) easily could never dream of getting into the 90ies. Only a small handful of super eager power players ever reached lv. 100. Now the big guilds got the release from the decay grip. Fine. I really am happy for all the big guilds out there. And holla! We see a lot of big guilds on the rise. What a surprise! And again, I am happy for you folks out there.

No. The system was set up, using the data they had, to cause the majority of guilds to stagnate right around the level 55 mark. Just high enough to buy a decent ship and +2 stat/30 resist gold seal buffs but not quite high enough to get any of those shrines for plat. They don't seem to have envisioned that most guilds would actually adapt and change due to the system, removing less active players and taking advantage of the mathematical sweet spots the addition of size bonuses created.

[curiouspilot]

I know a lot of people complain about guild decay, but it really is the one thing that is making me so angry that I am going to quit this game. The only thing that has kept me playing is the fact that if I quit, the guild that I have spent so much time building is going to start going backwards. But here is the thing, no matter what I do anymore I cannot keep my guild moving forward. I play a lot. I have put a lot of money into this game over the years. And I didn't mind that my guild was only advancing slowly. I knew that if I kept playing eventually I would work my way up and for the longest time it was true. But that isn't the case anymore. I am stuck. And I don't feel that it is my fault. I just got through with a solo run of "The Lords of Dust" on elite. I am level 17 and the dungeon is level 18. I didn't get through but I did get all the way to the end fight. I killed three red names along the way and got three chests. Each of those chests had a heroic deeds in them. I am so angry that I don't know what to do. I was tempted to quit when the last heroic deeds appeared. And I mean quit forever. How can I keep up guild renoun when i lose 3000 points every day and when I do run quests I get garbage. There should not even be the possibility of a heroic deeds in a level 18 dungeon on elite. It is an insult to give someone a heroic deeds and to get three in a row makes me feel helpless to do anything. I ran most of the walkup quests in gianthold with a pug group a few days ago and received Heroic deeds for most of the end quest rewards. I have a small guild, I am the only active member. I don't have guildies to run quests with whenever I want. I am often waiting around for a pug that happens to be doing what I need, which is rare. If you aren't in a big guild you are at an extreme disadvantage in this game. Most of the time I end up running the wilderness areas, which give **** for renoun. And I am finally to the point that when I get a good day and make around 10000 renoun, I will have thrree bad days and lose it all. When I get to the point that my guild moves backwards, I will quit. I don't see how I can keep playing a game that punishes me for playing. I understand punishing people for not playing, but I am online and active A LOT and I feel that I am still getting punished. I can't move forward so what is the point of playing? I guess I could abandon my guild and join a bigger one, but I don't want to do that. I am proud of the fact that I got to level 54 essentially alone. I have already paid for the ship at level 55, but I can't get there. I guess I could recruit people. I have tried, but that ends up doing more harm than good. I get people who don't bring in much renoun, but add to my decay. Most good active players are in a big guild and don't want to move back to a level 54. As I type I realize two things, 1. no one is going to read all of this and 2. it is futile to continue playing.

Then be content with level 53/54 sir, you've earn it and it's a decent guild level, but not everyone gets to advance, just as not everyone gets to be Usain Bolt, because the faster/higher one move/climb, the more wind resistance/gravity one gets. If, however, you'd like to be Lance Armstrong, you'd need a team.

BTW, this problem of yours has little to do with being in a small guild under the old system. The fact that it's easier for large guilds to gain renown right now does not mean you're being punished directly. Everyone in the game gets "garbage" just as often as you on average, and everyone's being punished as much as you under the same formula. Being in a solo guild is a challenge as we all know, so it's more of a personal choice than the imagined "I am being treated unfairly" condition. If we're under the old system you'd still be able to complain about the same situation that you're in. I hope you understand what I am trying to say here, sir.

[Gremmlynn]

...The fact that it's to easy for large guilds to gain renown right now does not mean you're being punished directly...

You seem to be confusing opinion with fact.

[curiouspilot]

You seem to be confusing opinion with fact.

Fixed.

[Nestroy]

No. The system was set up, using the data they had, to cause the majority of guilds to stagnate right around the level 55 mark. Just high enough to buy a decent ship and +2 stat/30 resist gold seal buffs but not quite high enough to get any of those shrines for plat. They don't seem to have envisioned that most guilds would actually adapt and change due to the system, removing less active players and taking advantage of the mathematical sweet spots the addition of size bonuses created.

Disclamer for Tshober first: No, I do not want the old system back.

OK, now to answer Gremmlynn: The more the new system got boked. And it´s your own argument telling me that. When the original system was set with a lv. 55 guild buing most ammenities by gold contract in mind, the less I understand the switch in policy by the DEVs with the new system. Now the rip-off is clearly with all the small guilds and small guilds alone.Where the big and small guilds got ripped off in the old system alike, the rip-off of the big guilds finally stopped. And on what single achivement? They are big. That´s all.

So the systematic and system-immanent rip-off only continues for the small guilds now.

Well, as alread stated several postings past, there are only 4 options open for small guilders, all of them hurting the Turbine business model. And thank god for this, because money seems to be the only language Turbine ultimately understands.

[eris2323]

Well, the system is what the system is. If I do not like to have eaten away 100% of renown production by decay, there are 4 simple Solutions. 1st, expand the guild. This sounds great advise but there is only one player base, there are only so much active players and there are only limited growth opportunitiies left. So this normally leave choice 2nd: Join a more active bigger guild. This is sound advice, with the exception that perhaps the guild one person is in is a guild the player has done a lot for, where the friends are in and where there is an emotional tie to the guild as well. That leaves only two other Solutions still valid, as long as we rule out external changes again - 3rd accepting the Status quo of the stagnating guild or 4th leaving the game completely.

And with 3 options out of 4 for small guilders to be less than satisfactory and the 4th near to impossible to attain, there is muchby the DEVs artificially created dissatisfaction. I wonder if this already hurts sales?

So you're saying that there are never, ever, ever any new players coming to this game, or you are saying that the guild you represent is unable to give these new players any sort of incentive to join them, with guild voice chat servers, web servers, or scheduled raids/training runs, so therefore, you can't grow?

I disbelieve. Rolled a 20. Made the save.

Perhaps it's just this: not as many people WANT to be in a tiny guild as you think, and most would rather a large guild with many players, and you are blind to this fact?

[Gremmlynn]

Disclamer for Tshober first: No, I do not want the old system back.

OK, now to answer Gremmlynn: The more the new system got boked. And it´s your own argument telling me that. When the original system was set with a lv. 55 guild buing most ammenities by gold contract in mind, the less I understand the switch in policy by the DEVs with the new system. Now the rip-off is clearly with all the small guilds and small guilds alone.Where the big and small guilds got ripped off in the old system alike, the rip-off of the big guilds finally stopped. And on what single achivement? They are big. That´s all.

So the systematic and system-immanent rip-off only continues for the small guilds now.

Well, as alread stated several postings past, there are only 4 options open for small guilders, all of them hurting the Turbine business model. And thank god for this, because money seems to be the only language Turbine ultimately understands.

Overreaction to the way guilds adjusted to the original system by booting players would be my best guess. Since I started playing, it's often seemed to me Turbine was more trying to play catch up with where their game was than following some sort of over all plan. I actually think they developed the system with an emphasis on not letting guilds recruit to gain an advantage and it never occurred to them that guilds might boot the less active players.

[Tshober]

No. The system was set up, using the data they had, to cause the majority of guilds to stagnate right around the level 55 mark. Just high enough to buy a decent ship and +2 stat/30 resist gold seal buffs but not quite high enough to get any of those shrines for plat. They don't seem to have envisioned that most guilds would actually adapt and change due to the system, removing less active players and taking advantage of the mathematical sweet spots the addition of size bonuses created.

Yes, I agree that it seems they very much underestimated the lure that guild levels would have for guilds. A fundamental rule of MMO's is never underestimate the ridiculous lengths that players will go to in order to advance even a tiny bit in an MMO. If it can be done at all, no matter how crazy it might seem, there will be players who will do it and find ways to improve the efficiency of it too.

[Gremmlynn]

Yes, I agree that it seems they very much underestimated the lure that guild levels would have for guilds. A fundamental rule of MMO's is never underestimate the ridiculous lengths that players will go to in order to advance even a tiny bit in an MMO. If it can be done at all, no matter how crazy it might seem, there will be players who will do it and find ways to improve the efficiency of it too.

You would think the popularity of their True Reincarnation system would have showed them that.

[Nestroy]

So you're saying that there are never, ever, ever any new players coming to this game, or you are saying that the guild you represent is unable to give these new players any sort of incentive to join them, with guild voice chat servers, web servers, or scheduled raids/training runs, so therefore, you can't grow?

I disbelieve. Rolled a 20. Made the save.

Perhaps it's just this: not as many people WANT to be in a tiny guild as you think, and most would rather a large guild with many players, and you are blind to this fact?

Well, I could tell you something now about servers like Wayfinder I am on with my guild but I will save my breath now because I alread got through the discussion that will certainly follow about 500 - 1000 Posts past in this discussion thread and I do not want to repeat. Let me put it this way: From about 80 accounts that went through our guild alone on Wayfinder I have a core group of 7 playing regularly and about 60 that after more or less time playing left the game completely and on very different reasons. And even the guys from Superiority Complex are not that overstuffed with players...

There is just not a player base on any server that allow any guild to grow endlessly. Even with homepage, teamspeak, guild raids (very funny on a 7 active acount guild, really!), etc. Else all guilds would be 1000 members strong. And now please stay with your big guild and stop talking about things you do not know anything about like playing in small and underleveled struggling startup guilds.

[Nestroy]

Yes, I agree that it seems they very much underestimated the lure that guild levels would have for guilds. A fundamental rule of MMO's is never underestimate the ridiculous lengths that players will go to in order to advance even a tiny bit in an MMO. If it can be done at all, no matter how crazy it might seem, there will be players who will do it and find ways to improve the efficiency of it too.

You would think the popularity of their True Reincarnation system would have showed them that.

I concur with both of you. I am still not convinced they do not do this on purpose in order to make the most money they can get away with out of it before anyone complains. And this would be called a rip-off.

Just let me say "daily dice".

[slarden]

I know a lot of people complain about guild decay, but it really is the one thing that is making me so angry that I am going to quit this game. The only thing that has kept me playing is the fact that if I quit, the guild that I have spent so much time building is going to start going backwards. But here is the thing, no matter what I do anymore I cannot keep my guild moving forward. I play a lot. I have put a lot of money into this game over the years. And I didn't mind that my guild was only advancing slowly. I knew that if I kept playing eventually I would work my way up and for the longest time it was true. But that isn't the case anymore. I am stuck. And I don't feel that it is my fault. I just got through with a solo run of "The Lords of Dust" on elite. I am level 17 and the dungeon is level 18. I didn't get through but I did get all the way to the end fight. I killed three red names along the way and got three chests. Each of those chests had a heroic deeds in them. I am so angry that I don't know what to do. I was tempted to quit when the last heroic deeds appeared. And I mean quit forever. How can I keep up guild renoun when i lose 3000 points every day and when I do run quests I get garbage. There should not even be the possibility of a heroic deeds in a level 18 dungeon on elite. It is an insult to give someone a heroic deeds and to get three in a row makes me feel helpless to do anything. I ran most of the walkup quests in gianthold with a pug group a few days ago and received Heroic deeds for most of the end quest rewards. I have a small guild, I am the only active member. I don't have guildies to run quests with whenever I want. I am often waiting around for a pug that happens to be doing what I need, which is rare. If you aren't in a big guild you are at an extreme disadvantage in this game. Most of the time I end up running the wilderness areas, which give **** for renoun. And I am finally to the point that when I get a good day and make around 10000 renoun, I will have thrree bad days and lose it all. When I get to the point that my guild moves backwards, I will quit. I don't see how I can keep playing a game that punishes me for playing. I understand punishing people for not playing, but I am online and active A LOT and I feel that I am still getting punished. I can't move forward so what is the point of playing? I guess I could abandon my guild and join a bigger one, but I don't want to do that. I am proud of the fact that I got to level 54 essentially alone. I have already paid for the ship at level 55, but I can't get there. I guess I could recruit people. I have tried, but that ends up doing more harm than good. I get people who don't bring in much renoun, but add to my decay. Most good active players are in a big guild and don't want to move back to a level 54. As I type I realize two things, 1. no one is going to read all of this and 2. it is futile to continue playing.

It is a shame the system doesn't work for guilds like yours which are perfectly fine the way they are. I encourage you to try and enjoy DDO despite the guild system, but if you made up your mind to leave DDO, I would suggest Neverwinter as a great D&D alternative for folks that want to group the way you do. You won't miss out on any in-game benefits by being in a small guild. Achievements are individual and the guild mechanic is purely social with no pressure and concerns about moving backwards. Three people from my guild and 4 from other small guilds on Sarlona are moving Neverwinter because of the guild system as well. It won't be live for a few months though.

While many people say all guilds shouldn't advance and the system is great the way it is now because guilds are no longer forced to kick players- it's ridiculous. As for the "earning" comments - they are also ridiculous. Someone can join a big high level guild and get all those benefits immediately. You have been working a long time and will never get those benefits because of decay.

First of all guilds were never forced to kick anyone. They did so to try to advance levels. The problem was never the way decay was calculated - the problem was that decay was too high and they couldn't advance. If decay was calculated on a per/account basis but kept low- nobody would care how it was calculated because all guilds could advance.

Your frustration with not advancing is not only understandable it's completely normal. If a system punishes a certain play style, over time more of those people will leave the game. Folks in large guilds previously pointed out the importance of being able to advance when they had the same decay/player that small guilds currently have. As you pointed out, the problem isn't that you aren't playing enough or doing enough, it's the system.

Unfortunately I don't think it will change. The developers made the current change within a few weeks of a forum post where guild leaders expressed their frustration with the system (big and small). It's been 6 months since then and nothing has been done for small guilds and not a single empathetic comment has been made by the developers. They could have lowered the fixed decay from 20 to 15 or 10 so small guilds also got a decay break, but they didn't. Instead they chose to make it even harder for guilds of 10 or less by increasing the ransack penalty without any other helpful changes. I see no reason to expect a beneficial change. Most likely the only changes made will require you to spend more money because you are in a small guild - not to help out small guilds.

I wish you the best in making a good decision.

[Nestroy]

(...)The developers made the current change within a few weeks of a forum post where guild leaders expressed their frustration with the system (big and small).(...)

Well, Slarden, then we shall start again in the General Forum, if the DEVs do not react in any way. I allready suggested this some posts past but this only would make sense if not only one single user but a bigger group of Players would start to campaign again in the General Forum. Else the thread will just get closed again with link in here and we are none the wiser.

Even a statement like "get lost" would help a lot. We then at least know what we have to expect.

With my guild we currently have 3 players only waiting for NWO to go online in full mode. 2 of them stated for the reason they leave: "We do not want to see our accomplishements getting eaten away by decay." Well, there the discussion stops. And it did not help that several guilides from bigger guilds commented that these players should join the bigger guilds either.

[Tshober]

The problem was never the way decay was calculated - the problem was that decay was too high and they couldn't advance. If decay was calculated on a per/account basis but kept low- nobody would care how it was calculated because all guilds could advance.

Actually, there was a problem with how decay was calculated. Several in fact. And just lowering it so some more guilds could advance would not necessarily have solved the problems. Any system where there are players who earn less renown than they cost their guild in decay, will encourage and reward guilds for kicking/shunning those players. That is the unintended side effect of adding more decay for each player in the guild. If you do not take steps to ensure that no players will be net negative renown contributors, then guilds will be incentivized to get rid of those players.

I agree with you that it is not fair to make players who want to be in small guilds, unable to advance. But it is even more unfair to make players who can't earn as much renown as the decay system takes away from their guild for having them, both unable to advance and unwelcome in every guild that does want to advance. The current system completely solves the 2nd (and greater) unfairness but it does not address the 1st unfairness at all. Fortunately, the current system can be made to address the 1st unfairness pretty easily. The only question is whether or not the devs will see fit to do so.

You said that the change was made within a few weeks of a general discussion forum post, and that is true as far as you went. But that forum post was just the most recent of a very long line of forum posts going back for well over a year pointing out the same problems. This has been a very long time coming. I had been advocating in the DDO forums for the elimination (or at least significant reduction) of renown decay for many months prior to the change. After so many months of seeming to totally ignore us, suddenly he devs acted. Perhaps that is just how they are going to proceed on this.

[UurlockYgmeov]

It is a shame the system doesn't work for guilds like yours which are perfectly fine the way they are. I encourage you to try and enjoy DDO despite the guild system, but if you made up your mind to leave DDO, I would suggest Neverwinter as a great D&D alternative for folks that want to group the way you do. You won't miss out on any in-game benefits by being in a small guild. Achievements are individual and the guild mechanic is purely social with no pressure and concerns about moving backwards. Three people from my guild and 4 from other small guilds on Sarlona are moving Neverwinter because of the guild system as well. It won't be live for a few months though.

While many people say all guilds shouldn't advance and the system is great the way it is now because guilds are no longer forced to kick players- it's ridiculous. As for the "earning" comments - they are also ridiculous. Someone can join a big high level guild and get all those benefits immediately. You have been working a long time and will never get those benefits because of decay.

First of all guilds were never forced to kick anyone. They did so to try to advance levels. The problem was never the way decay was calculated - the problem was that decay was too high and they couldn't advance. If decay was calculated on a per/account basis but kept low- nobody would care how it was calculated because all guilds could advance.

Your frustration with not advancing is not only understandable it's completely normal. If a system punishes a certain play style, over time more of those people will leave the game. Folks in large guilds previously pointed out the importance of being able to advance when they had the same decay/player that small guilds currently have. As you pointed out, the problem isn't that you aren't playing enough or doing enough, it's the system.

Unfortunately I don't think it will change. The developers made the current change within a few weeks of a forum post where guild leaders expressed their frustration with the system (big and small). It's been 6 months since then and nothing has been done for small guilds and not a single empathetic comment has been made by the developers. They could have lowered the fixed decay from 20 to 15 or 10 so small guilds also got a decay break, but they didn't. Instead they chose to make it even harder for guilds of 10 or less by increasing the ransack penalty without any other helpful changes. I see no reason to expect a beneficial change. Most likely the only changes made will require you to spend more money because you are in a small guild - not to help out small guilds.

I wish you the best in making a good decision.

Well, Slarden, then we shall start again in the General Forum, if the DEVs do not react in any way. I allready suggested this some posts past but this only would make sense if not only one single user but a bigger group of Players would start to campaign again in the General Forum. Else the thread will just get closed again with link in here and we are none the wiser.

Even a statement like "get lost" would help a lot. We then at least know what we have to expect.

With my guild we currently have 3 players only waiting for NWO to go online in full mode. 2 of them stated for the reason they leave: "We do not want to see our accomplishements getting eaten away by decay." Well, there the discussion stops. And it did not help that several guilides from bigger guilds commented that these players should join the bigger guilds either.

The Dev's are reading and changes are coming. It was just PAX and GoT and so it will just take time (later this year) before their Nerd Glaze wears off and they can roll out the code.

Slarden - exactly my points. Per active account (24 hour window and must have earned renown); and a reasonable amount (which my idea is actually too little).

(let the flaming begin)

[Nestroy]

The Dev's are reading and changes are coming. It was just PAX and GoT and so it will just take time (later this year) before their Nerd Glaze wears off and they can roll out the code.

Slarden - exactly my points. Per active account (24 hour window and must have earned renown); and a reasonable amount (which my idea is actually too little).

(let the flaming begin)

I will not flame you. I really hope you are right, especially on the DEV part...

[Charononus]

The Dev's are reading and changes are coming. It was just PAX and GoT and so it will just take time (later this year) before their Nerd Glaze wears off and they can roll out the code.

Slarden - exactly my points. Per active account (24 hour window and must have earned renown); and a reasonable amount (which my idea is actually too little).

(let the flaming begin)

You may be right, they could change thing tomorrow we have no way of knowing. That said, disagreement, and thinking an idea is horrible and the last thing turbine should do is not flaming, it's part of a debate.

[UurlockYgmeov]

I will not flame you. I really hope you are right, especially on the DEV part...

Appreciate. I don't think you flame.

Is just whispers - but whispers nonetheless. Major changes be coming.

On the decay of dead guilds - have had a break through. It so simple that I can't believe it took so long to think of.

Will finish polishing the explanation - but should post later this week.

[Arnez]

Unfortunately I don't think it will change. The developers made the current change within a few weeks of a forum post where guild leaders expressed their frustration with the system (big and small). It's been 6 months since then and nothing has been done for small guilds and not a single empathetic comment has been made by the developers. They could have lowered the fixed decay from 20 to 15 or 10 so small guilds also got a decay break, but they didn't. Instead they chose to make it even harder for guilds of 10 or less by increasing the ransack penalty without any other helpful changes. I see no reason to expect a beneficial change. Most likely the only changes made will require you to spend more money because you are in a small guild - not to help out small guilds.

I wish you the best in making a good decision.

I remember that post (in the General Forum)- I don't believe that any further changes are anywhere near close.
What they did (after that General Post) was strategic AND effective. Let me explain...

It effectively satisfied (at least) HALF of those complaining in that thread. In terms of hours of development time versus costumer satisfaction (while at the same time leading to more DDO Store Sales), the move was masterful.
Now they can effectively IGNORE medium & small guilds- because even the Large guilds have turned on us.

They had to do something within a week of that post in General- we were a united front at that point.
Now that the large guilds are happy- they are Actively going against ANY gains that medium & small guilds can get (even if only in theory).

[Tshober]

Now that the large guilds are happy- they are Actively going against ANY gains that medium & small guilds can get (even if only in theory).

What? Almost every poster in this thread from large guilds has endorsed at least one suggestion that would be very helpful to small guilds that are struggling against decay. No one that I know of has been more vocal in advocating for the complete elimination of decay than I have. Go ahead and do a forum search and try to find anyone who has been more consistent on that than I have over the last 12 months! And I am the leader of a quite large guild. I want all guilds to be able to advance and reach the highest levels and the suggestions I have supported would ensure that all guilds can and will be able to advance and reach the highest levels. The people I have spent the most time arguing with in this thread have said, over and over, that "some guilds should NOT be able to reach level 100". Most people from large guilds want all guilds to be able to advance because we know what it is like to not be able to do so. It is most certainly NOT large guilds who want guilds to stagnate and be unable to level. It is those who liked the old system and wish we would return to it who want that.