Guild Renown Changes

[slarden]

I think you need to re-read. I said the lines are not that easy to draw between Large and Small as it is based more on Activity.

I totally agree if the % of active accounts for Large and small are the same, the Larger guilds will generate more. However, if you consider for a moment a large guild that has the same number of active accounts per night as a small guild, than the numbers slant towards the smaller guild in that they earn renown at 2.4 to 3 times the amount per account than the larger guild even though for that same day they had the same number of accounts actively gaining renown. In this case the break even point would be that a large guild needs 2.4 to 3 times the people active to equal the same renown, or for simplicity 5 to 6 active accounts for a small guilds 2. However, under the decay system in both cases the active accounts for that day are responsible for the entire guilds decay amount. So yes you can average out on a per account basis, and larger guilds have more to spread that too, but in truth the number it is actually spread to for both large and small is the number that was actually active that day.



The Activity Level is the problem. It has been obscured by Guild Size and has caused a polarization on that issue which is preventing many to engage the real issue. The real issue is what "Activity Level is Turbine using to determine average renown gains" 1 hour, 4 hours, 8 hours a day average?

Under the old system a guild of 5 would have had decay based on 20. A guild of 200 would have had decay based on 210 so the small guild bonus really only helps small guilds break even in that regard. If 20% of the small guild is online earning 240% they are geneating renown to cover 2.4 out of the 20 used in the decay formula (12%). If 20% of a 200 guild is online they are generating 40 out of 210 used in the decay formula (19%). Under no circumstance does the small guild ever come out ahead with regards to math if the same percentage of guildies are casual, inactive, skipping chests or leaving renown in chests. But there have obviously been some focused guilds (usually around 10-20 people) that have been able to reach very high levels due to high play time and strict recruiting standards. Zerging guilds also get more renown generation because chests are opened in a smaller amount of time.

I do acknowledge full that people in large guilds tend to have more complacency with regards to renown generation. That is a big challenge for large guilds and this should be dealt with so that large casual guilds can advance. But any notion that small guilds can overcome these issues easier than large guilds is completely false. Large guilds will sail to level 50 even with no concern about guild renown. Most small guilds will never get to 50 and many will just disband due to lack of progress. I would like to see people have a choice between small and large guilds - based on their personality and preferences. I also want to see the big guild issues resolved. I have many in-game friends that are in big guilds and I want them to have a chance to get bigger ships and better amenities.

I don't agree that large guilds are out to help casual players while small guilds are not (not directed at you - but I see these type of false comments in this thread). Many people get lost in large guilds and find a better home in small guilds. My small guild never booted a single casual player and we only booted inactives that were gone a long time and obviously not returning. When someone asked to join our guild we never declined, we only asked that they agree to represent our guild well with kind behaviour to others. We don't reject people because they aren't hardcore players.

[eris2323]

We've now re-enabled our temporary adjustments to guild renown, as specified in the first post in this thread:



These changes are anticipated to remain in-game through at least Update 16. We are continuing to look into a bug which may be causing additional decay issues, and will have more information about that when we can. Thank you!

I thank you all again, from the bottom of my heart.

[Tshober]

We've now re-enabled our temporary adjustments to guild renown, as specified in the first post in this thread:



These changes are anticipated to remain in-game through at least Update 16. We are continuing to look into a bug which may be causing additional decay issues, and will have more information about that when we can. Thank you!

Thanks for the update and thanks again for trying out alternatives!

[eris2323]

Will there be a refund policy for elixir purchased by small guilds? There should be because the new system is rendering small guilds obsolete.

This is just silly.

Did large, casual guilds get a refund on the years of using potions to try to stay even?

No.

Don't be bitter; they have said they have more changes.... maybe, perhaps, try a little patience.

[Chaos000]

Will there be a refund policy for elixir purchased by small guilds? There should be because the new system is rendering small guilds obsolete.

Provided there is a drastic reduction in small guilds by the time update 16 hits I'm pretty sure they would consider the validity of this request at that time.

[Dandonk]

Provided there is a drastic reduction in small guilds by the time update 16 hits I'm pretty sure they would consider the validity of this request at that time.

Or maybe a drastic increase in people recruiting, and then kicking people again once they reach the desired level.

I'm disappointed that Turbine hasn't seen fit to address the entire problem, but I'm not surprised.

Well, congratulations to the large guilds. Hopefully the patience of the small guilds will be rewarded.

Miracles do happen, they say.

[eris2323]

Not really, those potions purchaesd by big guilds were done so knowing the rules The potions purchased by small guilds were done so based on the old rules and the rules were changed -rendering small guilds obsolete.

But - nothing has changed for you - you can still gain renown. Your potions still work. They caused you to get a bonus to renown - why should you get a refund?

You're just mad because you see that large guilds will finally LOSE their penalty, compared to small guilds. You're not even willing to give them a little time (one update, even) to see any other changes they have in store, because this angers you so much.

In short, you want to argue, and complain - because someone else is getting a penalty removed, and you are angry that your small guild isn't getting an instant bonus to help you out.

[Dandonk]

You're just mad because you see that large guilds will finally LOSE their penalty, compared to small guilds. You're not even willing to give them a little time (one update, even) to see any other changes they have in store, because this angers you so much.

In short, you want to argue, and complain - because someone else is getting a penalty removed, and you are angry that your small guild isn't getting an instant bonus to help you out.

They did not have a penalty compared small guilds. With equal activity on average for each member, small and large guilds would advance fairly equally.

With the new system, large guilds get a huge bonus while small guilds are left with the old system, the one that you obviosuly didn't like (at least not for large guilds).

I think it is unfair to address only one part of the problem. But I suppose we can always mass invite 50 new players and kick them again after we get to 93. No big problem to me.
But is that what Turbine wants?

[Heikenmoore]

One change I would like to see to guild renown is being able to boot inactive accounts without taking a 25% renown hit.

We have several accounts that have been inactive for 3-6 months, but since booting them means we lose 25% of the renown they added to the guild, it is better to keep them as inactive in the guild rather than boot them.

We should change it so that you take a 25% reduction if only 1 month inactive, a 10% reduction if 2 months inactive, and if greater than 3 months, 0% reduction. That way we can better manage our guild and know how many actives we really have at any one time.

Thanks.

[eris2323]

They did not have a penalty compared small guilds. With equal activity on average for each member, small and large guilds would advance fairly equally.

With the new system, large guilds get a huge bonus while small guilds are left with the old system, the one that you obviosuly didn't like (at least not for large guilds).

I think it is unfair to address only one part of the problem. But I suppose we can always mass invite 50 new players and kick them again after we get to 93. No big problem to me.
But is that what Turbine wants?

You are incorrect.

All large guilds previously would hit a wall, causing players to leave for SMALL GUILDS.

Some would stay, of course - our core group.

For 2 years, we've been the same level because of this garbage.

Now the people who left are mad because they should have stayed in the larger guilds, waited it out, and they'd have their own high levels?

Our only choice was to KICK OUT casual and social players in favour of power-gamers. Some guilds did it, some just suffered with decay.

This has led to many people, in many guilds, being removed from their homes.

The fact that you are considering, even in jest, the 'invite everyone then kick them' - shows me that you are only looking to exploit the system yourself. Is that why you formed a small guild?

Or were you kicked from a large guild? Why so bitter?

[katz]

hmm. small guilds obsolete? funny... *checks ship full of +30 resists and +2 stats* i don't FEEL obsolete. meh. *shrug*

[MysticElaine]

@heiken I stated earlier in this thread that I booted ppl at 4months and over due to knowing they were leaving the game for good. I didn't receive 25% hit or an increase to recent departures...u should be ok

[Dandonk]

You are incorrect.

All large guilds previously would hit a wall, causing players to leave for SMALL GUILDS.

Some would stay, of course - our core group.

For 2 years, we've been the same level because of this garbage.

Now the people who left are mad because they should have stayed in the larger guilds, waited it out, and they'd have their own high levels?

Our only choice was to KICK OUT casual and social players in favour of power-gamers. Some guilds did it, some just suffered with decay.

This has led to many people, in many guilds, being removed from their homes.

The fact that you are considering, even in jest, the 'invite everyone then kick them' - shows me that you are only looking to exploit the system yourself. Is that why you formed a small guild?

Or were you kicked from a large guild? Why so bitter?

Yes, theey kicked casuals. Because they had a large proportion of casuals. Small guilds with the same proportion would hit the same wall.

The system used to reward activity, whether you were large or small guild. Now it just rewards size.

This seems unfair to me, as I prefer to play with my friends in the small guild we have. This is the way our guild has always been - no thought to exploit anything there. But if Turbine wants to make something to blatantly unfair to small guilds, I can play that game too and be unfair in my own way.

Again, as I have said in previous posts: I think anyone getting kicked for renown reasons is a bad thing. So I support this being fixed - but for ALL guilds, not just the large ones.

[eris2323]

hmm. small guilds obsolete? funny... *checks ship full of +30 resists and +2 stats* i don't FEEL obsolete. meh. *shrug*

Exactly.

A few naysayers seem to think there will be no more small guilds after this change; I highly doubt that. Some people can't get along with others, and will always be in a small guild. Some people just want their TR group to be their entire guild - I don't see that changing, either.

And some of us want to be able to log into our large guild and say 'GUILD SHROUD, 10 MINUTES, WHOS WITH ME?'

I highly doubt we are seeing the death of small guilds.

We might see a small reduction in the 6-12 person powergamer guilds though - as some of those players realize they can re-join the larger guilds, instead of re-inventing the wheel themselves - with renown leashed, as it is...

And we might not.

[eris2323]

Yes, theey kicked casuals. Because they had a large proportion of casuals. Small guilds with the same proportion would hit the same wall.

The system used to reward activity, whether you were large or small guild. Now it just rewards size.

This seems unfair to me, as I prefer to play with my friends in the small guild we have. This is the way our guild has always been - no thought to exploit anything there. But if Turbine wants to make something to blatantly unfair to small guilds, I can play that game too and be unfair in my own way.

Again, as I have said in previous posts: I think anyone getting kicked for renown reasons is a bad thing. So I support this being fixed - but for ALL guilds, not just the large ones.

And more changes are coming....

This is not the be-all and the end-all of renown changes.

So why complain, when suddenly people who have been running the same treadmill for years finally get a break? Just because yours is still running?

Your break might be coming too... just gotta give it a chance.

[Dandonk]

And more changes are coming....

This is not the be-all and the end-all of renown changes.

So why complain, when suddenly people who have been running the same treadmill for years finally get a break? Just because yours is still running?

Your break might be coming too... just gotta give it a chance.

My treadmill was running exactly as slow as yours. Given same average activity, we would advance in guild level more or less equally.

Now you get a huge bonus, but we're left behind. That is not fair.

I see a flimsy and indefinite "we'll look into it", but no promises of anything specific to help out small guilds later on. And no idea of when that "later" will be. With Turbine's record, it could be years.

[eris2323]

My treadmill was running exactly as slow as yours. Given same average activity, we would advance in guild level more or less equally.

Now you get a huge bonus, but we're left behind. That is not fair.

I see a flimsy and indefinite "we'll look into it", but no promises of anything specific to help out small guilds later on. And no idea of when that "later" will be. With Turbine's record, it could be years.

I am sorry your concerns haven't been addressed with the recent, emergency-easy fix that Turbine has provided for large guilds - and hopeful in the future that your guild will see some example of fairness returned to you, regardless of what that might be.

As long as it doesn't kill my large guild, that is.

[Dandonk]

As long as it doesn't kill my large guild, that is.

Oh, so it's OK that the current "fix" may destroy some smaller guilds, but not OK if the next "fix" may do the same to your guild?

Check, I understand now.

[eris2323]

Well I've conceded that Turbine is going with the bigger is better strategy. I really liked being in my real life friend guild but I am not going to keep buying elixirs for people if they are going to reward size only.

I don't like the change but I accept Turbine is trying to do the right thing.

We are going to start exploring mergers with other guilds. If we don't like being in a big guild there is always other hobbies, but I do feel like a fool for buyiing guild exlirs without considering that Turbine would change the rules on me. I would never try to build a small guild again - we spent so much time focusing on renown not to mention the elixirs that were wasted.

You're in an MMO. Things change.

I feel like a fool for laying down 80 bucks for underdark, when it was so obviously broken at release.

I got over it though.

[eris2323]

Oh, so it's OK that the current "fix" may destroy some smaller guilds, but not OK if the next "fix" may do the same to your guild?

Check, I understand now.

Exactly.

I do not agree it will destroy small guilds though - I think the only small guilds it will DESTROY is power gamer guilds who don't really care about their friends after all, and were only looking for a quick ride to their own high level buffs...

I would not like to see another 'fix' which will destroy large guilds ability to take in casual and social players though.