Guild Renown Changes

[smatt]

100% renown loss for booting would solve that and without decay there would be no reason not to have that in.

Hmm, no that would create situations when guilds hae "Problem members" they need to boot.

[Chaos000]

100% renown loss for booting would solve that and without decay there would be no reason not to have that in.

I am all for this idea provided the following applies:

100% renown loss WILL apply when:
Character leaves on bad terms (by selecting that option when they voluntarily drop from guild)
If a character is expelled by an officer of the guild (regardless of if the account is inactive or not)

100% renown loss WILL NOT apply when:
Character leaves on amicable terms (by selecting that option when they voluntarily drop from the guild)
Character is deleted from the Character Select screen while a member of a guild

Should be easily applied as the items above can be assigned different values.

Hmm, no that would create situations when guilds have "Problem members" they need to boot.

In situations where a guild has a "Problem member" they could communicate with the member about improving their behavior and politely ask them to voluntarily drop from the guild on amicable terms if this can not be accomplished.

In my opinion, in the same manner that your loot is your loot, so is a player's renown earned.

[DocBenway]

Yes, there has been OFFICIAL reason for it to exist and a sound gameplay reason for it to exist!


Renown Decay

A guild’s level represent’s their current stature, and that stature is based on their renown. If “renown” is your guild’s “fame,” then your guild is like a famous actor, but in more ways than one! With a successful actor, the level of their fame can decline if they’re removed from the public eye for an extended period of time. The same is true for a guild’s renown – it can fade if the guild is not keeping active around the city thwarting monsters and waging battles of glory. If a guild were able to rise to an impressively high level and then cease to be active, their renown would start to decay as the tales of their heroics faded into memory.

For the first part of a guild’s level progression, decay of a guild’s renown isn’t a concern, but as a guild’s level increases beyond a certain threshold, they start to face additional challenges progressing – and maintaining - their renown and guild level. This mostly pertains to ambitious guilds that attain very high renown; we felt that this would create an exciting dynamic and foster some friendly competition! Who can rise to the top, and stay at the top, of the city’s list of famous guilds?

Guild levels below 26 do not decay. As a guild reaches the highest levels, the rate of decay will increase.

There you have it.

Ok, using this exact same reasoning, I am going to argue for the decay of Favor. What is it but a different name assigned to individuals rather than groups of individuals. "What have you done for me lately?" should apply in both cases.. You won't decay below the first favor rank since they will always know your name, it just depends if they're currently singing your praises or mumbling about your laziness. After all, a characters Favor represents their stature or "fame" with the various factions of the world. The longer since you've done them a "favor" the foggier their memory of the last one is.

[Chaos000]

Ok, using this exact same reasoning, I am going to argue for the decay of Favor. What is it but a different name assigned to individuals rather than groups of individuals. "What have you done for me lately?" should apply in both cases.. You won't decay below the first favor rank since they will always know your name, it just depends if they're currently singing your praises or mumbling about your laziness. After all, a characters Favor represents their stature or "fame" with the various factions of the world. The longer since you've done them a "favor" the foggier their memory of the last one is.

Hey if I can run epic normal 10 times and get elite favor for it I am all for a decay of favor

Also, if repetition penalties dropped off at a certain point that would be fantastic as well.

If low level favor decays too, being over leveled should not be penalized anymore

[Hendrik]

Ok, using this exact same reasoning, I am going to argue for the decay of Favor. What is it but a different name assigned to individuals rather than groups of individuals. "What have you done for me lately?" should apply in both cases.. You won't decay below the first favor rank since they will always know your name, it just depends if they're currently singing your praises or mumbling about your laziness. After all, a characters Favor represents their stature or "fame" with the various factions of the world. The longer since you've done them a "favor" the foggier their memory of the last one is.

Then you need to start a new thread for that as it is totally off topic.



Sorry you do not like the sound reasoning behind decay, but makes total sense to me and to Turbine.

Expect it to stay and suggest ideas for Renown around that.

[Hendrik]

Hey if I can run epic normal 10 times and get elite favor for it I am all for a decay of favor

Also, if repetition penalties dropped off at a certain point that would be fantastic as well.

If low level favor decays too, being over leveled should not be penalized anymore

And if you drop below certain Favor thresholds, you loose access to what that favor gains! Just like Renown.

I'm sure Doc would be happy to loose access to what he has from PDK favor until he run it again all on EE. Bank slots earned via House K, gone until you regain that favor. Inventory, gone too until it is regained.

Don't think his idea what thought out all that well...

[slarden]

Hmm, no that would create situations when guilds hae "Problem members" they need to boot.

It's not a problem, you gain nothing and lose nothing for booting a problem member - it's like they were never in the guild.

[slarden]

Then you need to start a new thread for that as it is totally off topic.



Sorry you do not like the sound reasoning behind decay, but makes total sense to me and to Turbine.

Expect it to stay and suggest ideas for Renown around that.

Prior to the recent change, almost all comments from large guilds related to decay were that it were too high and/or to get rid of it or reduce it.

It seems like there is a direct correlation between the decay/player ratio of decay and how it is viewed. This is not suprising at all since the pain of decay is largely only a small guild problem now.

I am thankful the devs are still working on it.

[smatt]

It's not a problem, you gain nothing and lose nothing for booting a problem member - it's like they were never in the guild.

Which isn't a problem for a small guild....... But is or can be a much larger problem within a larger social group, as the chances of having an issue with a particluar player(s) is much greater. You see there are upsides and downsides to all sizes of social groups. You want all the benefits, and none of the downsides of small guilds. The large guilds already have to deal with all kinds of issues and now you want to penalize them even further.

See how that works...

[Nestroy]

In situations where a guild has a "Problem member" they could communicate with the member about improving their behavior and politely ask them to voluntarily drop from the guild on amicable terms if this can not be accomplished.

In case of cases there should be the possibillity to have a member booted from the guild by the GMs without renown loss. We would have had one singular case of such a boot in the past, in about 1.5 years of existence and with about 50 accounts going in and out - a case of theft (arguably something uncommon, but if a guildie switches items through the guild chest and another knowingly steals something this is not ok).

[Nestroy]

Hey if I can run epic normal 10 times and get elite favor for it I am all for a decay of favor

Well, I wouldn´t write against renown decay that fevereshly if we would be showered by renown by anything we do except staring and blinking. But since we do not get renown at hight numbers / minute for things like repetitive epic runs, challenges or anything else except Haverdasher on H-E when lv. 2, I am still doing my fight for abolishing decay here.

And I still think, chaos ment renown, not favor...

[Hendrik]

Prior to the recent change, almost all comments from large guilds related to decay were that it were too high and/or to get rid of it or reduce it.

It seems like there is a direct correlation between the decay/player ratio of decay and how it is viewed. This is not suprising at all since the pain of decay is largely only a small guild problem now.

I am thankful the devs are still working on it.

And as a small guild gets higher up, like yours, the decay goes up. Eventually you will reach a point where decay equal your daily renown gains. Just like ALL guilds of ALL sizes. How active your guild is is the variable you need to take control of.

Accept the fact that you will plateau, just like all guilds. Where you plateau is totally dependant on how active your guild is in running content. No matter what changes are made, if any, you will plateau at some point.

If you need help or guidance in looking for ways to reach 100, I would look to the leaderboards of ANY server, see what other small guild is higher then you of relativly the same size, and there are a great deal of them, and get some hint on how they did it.

If they can do it, so can you. They worked within the current system to reach those levels and so can you. If you want to reach those levels you will have to do what they did, 'work for it' by working together as a guild.

[Chaos000]

Well, I wouldn´t write against renown decay that fevereshly if we would be showered by renown by anything we do except staring and blinking. But since we do not get renown at hight numbers / minute for things like repetitive epic runs, challenges or anything else except Haverdasher on H-E when lv. 2, I am still doing my fight for abolishing decay here.

And I still think, chaos ment renown, not favor...

I meant favor. it was in response to someone saying how favor should decay in the same manner as renown. (i.e. elite favor drops off)

But you bring up a good point. If it were possible to get renown per every successful quest completion this would provide players with a more consistent manner in which to gain renown.

Also, for capped characters where xp doesn't matter anymore... any way to convert the xp into renown?

[DocBenway]

Then you need to start a new thread for that as it is totally off topic.



Sorry you do not like the sound reasoning behind decay, but makes total sense to me and to Turbine....

So you are saying that, although it does not belong in this thread but in its own topic, the reasoning for Favor decay is sound? They were the same reasons except renown decay wants you to pay to overcome it. Favor decay, given current rewards, would pay you to hover at a plateau level to decay back and forth on one character and rack up 175TP a week just running Guard Duty on that character.

That is why you'll see one system clung to and the other never adopted. No other reason, since the same "sound" reasons for both to exist don't work in both cases (for Turbine)

[smatt]

So you are saying that, although it does not belong in this thread but in its own topic, the reasoning for Favor decay is sound? They were the same reasons except renown decay wants you to pay to overcome it. Favor decay, given current rewards, would pay you to hover at a plateau level to decay back and forth on one character and rack up 175TP a week just running Guard Duty on that character.

That is why you'll see one system clung to and the other never adopted. No other reason, since the same "sound" reasons for both to exist don't work in both cases (for Turbine)

No it's not sound logic at all... Favor is an individual accomplsihment.... You're clouding issues out of rage, I think...

Everything Turbine does is for one purpose and one purpose only... To make money... *Hint Turbine is a business...

[Nestroy]

(...)Accept the fact that you will plateau, just like all guilds. Where you plateau is totally dependant on how active your guild is in running content. No matter what changes are made, if any, you will plateau at some point.
(...)

First, at the current rate the servers will get turned down and DDO 2 will be online, before we cap. So your argument goes into oblivion. But without multiboxing and farm grinding renown, NO small guild may reach lv. 100 in any meaningful time, even if very active.

Second, I monitored our guild. We had a plus of 65452 renown yesterday, where decay already is deducted. We currently are at 10,200,000 renown total. This renown plus we had due to the ongoing event and due to having 6 out of 12 members active yesterday. Which is something to archieve, especially when counting in that one active member is a recently gone account (by players choice, we would have liked to retain him) and 3 accounts currently are inactive due to personal issues. I would call 50% members active one day a very good activity rate. And nonetheless we only were able to bring in 65k renown. Why? Because we ran a lot of stuff on epic levels (less renown, oh yeah), some challenges and only a few quests with low level toons (in order to help a new member to gain experience with the game). For the total of the week we had some 200k renown (we mostly consist of people with jobs, so about 1-2 hours / day are the most we can do during week) growth. It will still take us 200 weeks, not counting in ever growing renown decay, to reach lv. 100. This is about 4 years at least - until then most members will already be playing NWKO at the current rate and development of DDO in general.

So, please, stop arguing like a wisea** here. No, it is not activity, that defines success or no success of a small guild in reaching lv. 100. That is defined by actually being hyper active and cheating (like multiboxing, I call this cheating).

[Nestroy]

(...)Everything Turbine does is for one purpose and one purpose only... To make money... *Hint Turbine is a business...

You are perfectly right. The more I wonder why Turbine / the devs stick to renown decay as a concept. Because to my mind it actually hurts their sales. In my guild there are a lot of examples - many players that will not use pots "because the renown eventually will vanish anyway" - they prefer investing in more adventure packs or more bank space - things that do not get eaten up.

[PouncingShadows]

You and nearly everyone in this thread are completely missing the point. Yes, small guilds get to keep their bonus when earning renown. HOWEVER, the mathematics of this change mean the the enormous renown earning potential of large guilds has NO offset to balance them with small guilds. As of today, small guilds are in exactly the same position large, casual guilds were in yesterday.

All the devs did today was flip the inequality in guild leveling potential from large guilds to small ones. I appreciate that the devs are trying to please a very vocal portion of the player base, but this was not the way to do it. Small guilds are being punished because it will now be laughably easy for large guilds to outlevel small ones, no matter how active the small ones are. The playing field is not even now, the inequality has just been shifted.

And to answer the question Varguille posed in his post, yes I do think that large, casual guilds rocketing to 100 in a matter of weeks/months (as they are guaranteed to do, that 3 levels/day is a joke) is a problem when small active guilds will still plod along at the same glacial pace. it devalues the achievement and does not address the base issue of inequality among various guild sizes.

Definitely this.

Signed, couldn't agree more.

[Nestroy]

Signed, couldn't agree more.

Not to mention that the decay overhaul spells "quick and dirty" all over the place...

[Hendrik]

So you are saying that, although it does not belong in this thread but in its own topic, the reasoning for Favor decay is sound? They were the same reasons except renown decay wants you to pay to overcome it. Favor decay, given current rewards, would pay you to hover at a plateau level to decay back and forth on one character and rack up 175TP a week just running Guard Duty on that character.

That is why you'll see one system clung to and the other never adopted. No other reason, since the same "sound" reasons for both to exist don't work in both cases (for Turbine)

Not in the least because you have not thought the idea through.