DDOGamer: Understanding PvP Hate

[wax_on_wax_off]

Well, extra work is... extra work.
Opinion: Use time clocked in to fix whats already broken?
Shocking!
There's an overstated idea. And i for one am all for that!

Don't really care if PvP stay's or goes... there's plenty of that in other games im told.
Primarily, it's a character flaw to have to prove yourself -to yourself? ~As i doubt no one else really truly cares? -although i admit... i do enjoy the occasional pwning of your Monkcher clones.
...they learn the hard way.

If that small amount of extra work generates significant return on the investment which could then be reinvested back into the game to fix the issues that you've listed above then ... Well, everybody wins, right?

[GLand_Clickyclack]

I don't hate PvP - I hate PvP in DDO.

^_This_^

[Kawai]

If that small amount of extra work generates significant return on the investment which could then be reinvested back into the game to fix the issues that you've listed above then ... Well, everybody wins, right?

Perhaps?

Yet i fail following presumption that what is already proven to b niche in this game could b translated into a "significant return on the investment"?
Photo of the numbers on Stockholders folder? or it didn't happen.

My little brother is sitting right here? Fresh from bed, and already le Xbox?
I ask him : would u play this game with me if you could kill others fairly?
He shruggyz "not really, D&D is lame, and so is that..."

Poo with him anyway.
He would rather play Call of Duty... *shrug

[goodoldxelos]

Some really good points made by DDOgamer.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Perhaps?

Yet i fail following presumption that what is already proven to b niche in this game could b translated into a "significant return on the investment"?
Photo of the numbers on Stockholders folder? or it didn't happen.

My little brother is sitting right here? Fresh from bed, and already le Xbox?
I ask him : would u play this game with me if you could kill others fairly?
He shruggyz "not really, D&D is lame, and so is that..."

Poo with him anyway.
He would rather play Call of Duty... *shrug

The current implementation of PvP in DDO is niche but that doesn't mean that PVP in general is and there's a whole range of audience between you're little brother and an average polarised forum goer - including the average player - and I think many people would enjoy a fun diversion occasionally from the usual treadmill.

[Entelech]

Conspiracy theory: is it jus me, or does "The Great Tree" challenge look a lot like a one-sided version of DotA and the "Ritual" look a lot like King of the Hill?

Really, if we consider that these challenges are already in the game how much extra work is it to turn them into PvP maps?

Sigh...you're still not getting it.

Sure, in a perfect universe, Turbine could sprinkle magic fairy dust on their servers and everything you and Geoffhanna want would pop onto the live servers with no bugs.

In the real world, coding anything requires that a person spend time on the problem. And then spend time debugging the solution.

That means Turbine has to prioritize what they work on. Currently, I hope their to-do list looks something like this:

(1) Fixing those pesky Lesser Reincarnate bugs that cause XP loss.
(2) Fixing UMD lag
(3) Reducing that horrid load screen lag that cropped up recently.
(4) Getting the Mabar festival right.
(5) Fixing Improved Feint.
(6) Finishing the Enhancement updates and PrE's they promised.
(7-4000) Other bugfixes and new quests that do not involve Elminster or Drizz't.
(4001) Dying in bed, of old age, surrounded by fat grandchildren.
(4002) Improve PvP.
(4003) New quests that DO involve either Elminster or Drizz't.
(4004) Heat death of the Universe.
(4005) New quests that involve BOTH Elminster and Drizz't.

[Dribble]

The current implementation of PvP in DDO is niche but that doesn't mean that PVP in general is and there's a whole range of audience between you're little brother and an average polarised forum goer - including the average player - and I think many people would enjoy a fun diversion occasionally from the usual treadmill.

Yup. There is absolutely nothing limiting the enjoyment and draw of a new thing to do in DDO (to new players or existing players)...except the quality and manner in which Turbine would decide to do it.

Some people act as if they know the inner workings of Turbine. They act as if adding a new system somehow halts development on the rest of the game. How ridiculous. People within Turbine work on different aspects game. Turbine will even hire new people with specific backgrounds (ie: pvp) or bring in people from other teams. The world does not stop every time Turbine decides to add something new, be it challenges, crafting, guild ships, myddo or even pvp (when it was first added). We know that much at least. Any other claim is wild speculation that is flimsy at best...yet another non-argument.

[Entelech]

Before Turbine can go and hire new programmers to work on the PVP thing, it needs to develop an estimate of whether such effort is likely to increase revenue, and by how much.

This brings us back to the Bayesian inference thing, and the observation that PvP has never been a strong money-maker in MMO's to date. Furthermore, an attempt to capture a large number of PVP fans will involve competing against non-MMO games that specialize in PVP, such as Call of Duty, for market share.

Then, once Turbine figures out how much, if any, money they can spend hiring programmers for this project, they need to actually go through the process of hiring them and bringing them up to speed on existing DDO code.

And once they've done all that, there's still the decision of whether they should take these shiny new programmers and put them to work on other projects that are likely to make a larger profit than PVP would.

In short, it STILL comes down to a question of prioritization. Unless you are willing to personally pay the salaries of new programmers (in which case they work for you, and do what you tell them to), Turbine will put available resources where it thinks they will do the most good.

This isn't some guesswork at how Turbine thinks. This is flat-out fact about how EVERY modern business is run. Turbine is owned by Warner Brothers, and you can bet there are corporate business and marketing types running the show.

[cdbd3rd]

Singular,

Apropos of nothing, back in my own Pen and Paper days, inter-party conflict was usually a no-no.

In fact I distinctly remember a Kender character (from Dragonlance) who was executed by the party while screaming something to the effect of "Guys...guys...I'm ROLEPLAYING...I'm a Kender for crying out loud."

As I recall they strapped him to a rack and turned him into something that resembled a Solinesti Elf. He'd thought the Fighter's dagger looked "interesting" for a while, then abandoned it in a mud puddle along the side of the road. When they caught him, he had the Cleric's Holy Symbol in his belt pouch, and had left grape jelly stains on the Wizard's spellbook.

Have you had similar experiences?

Yes! ... and worse - the Kender was the wife of the guy my ex had her affair with. Beat that.

[Entelech]

Yes! ... and worse - the Kender was the wife of the guy my ex had her affair with. Beat that.

*blink*

You win.

[Uchuujin-San]

But those questions would be insufficient.

Of course there's a market for PvP. The four people who still play Dark Ages of Camelot are, obviously, a market. The problem is something that economists call "opportunity cost". If the Devs are busy coding the PVP stuff you want, then they are NOT fixing bugs...or implementing player houses...or putting in SWG-like crafting...or finishing PrE's... Would doing PVP be BETTER than doing any of those OTHER things? THAT is the question we need to ask.

Pretty much this. Dev time spent on PvP could better be spent on improving or fixing the current state of the game.

Although one suggestion i've seen on the forums i really like is for Turbine to introduce a PvP pre-order pack to the store.. then, Turbine at least, can gauge how many of their players actually want dev time and would be willing to fund said time for PvP to be properly implemented.

[Flavilandile]

Singular,

Apropos of nothing, back in my own Pen and Paper days, inter-party conflict was usually a no-no.

In fact I distinctly remember a Kender character (from Dragonlance) who was executed by the party while screaming something to the effect of "Guys...guys...I'm ROLEPLAYING...I'm a Kender for crying out loud."

As I recall they strapped him to a rack and turned him into something that resembled a Solinesti Elf. He'd thought the Fighter's dagger looked "interesting" for a while, then abandoned it in a mud puddle along the side of the road. When they caught him, he had the Cleric's Holy Symbol in his belt pouch, and had left grape jelly stains on the Wizard's spellbook.

Have you had similar experiences?

You have no idea... I personally killed two playing characters as another playing character.
( I stopped counting long ago as a GM )

As for Kenders... Lets say that I played one in a DL campaign, another player was also playing a Kender... and the motto of the rest of the players ( after a few games ) was to ask to the GM what we were doing.... every 5 minutes... to make sure we didn't run off somewhere to do Kender Things. They even put a timing clock on the table set to 5 minutes and when it ringed they asked The Question. Running off to do Kender Things was Interesting.

[Singular]

Singular,

Apropos of nothing, back in my own Pen and Paper days, inter-party conflict was usually a no-no.

In fact I distinctly remember a Kender character (from Dragonlance) who was executed by the party while screaming something to the effect of "Guys...guys...I'm ROLEPLAYING...I'm a Kender for crying out loud."

As I recall they strapped him to a rack and turned him into something that resembled a Solinesti Elf. He'd thought the Fighter's dagger looked "interesting" for a while, then abandoned it in a mud puddle along the side of the road. When they caught him, he had the Cleric's Holy Symbol in his belt pouch, and had left grape jelly stains on the Wizard's spellbook.

Have you had similar experiences?

Yeah, actually I did, now that you mention it. We had a static 4 person group + me, the DM. Sometimes we'd invite others to join us - and yes, anyone who wanted to play a kender tried to pull the **** that you mentioned above. They'd end up ruining a day's game and we'd never invite them back. If I wanted to salvage the day, as the DM, I'd just stop bothering to engage them. Their character would be lost or busy or something.

<shudder> people who roleplay kenders

[Singular]

Yes! ... and worse - the Kender was the wife of the guy my ex had her affair with. Beat that.

Wow. You ... uh...win?

edit - oh! ninja'd!

Anyways, you're better off without that kender-loving blachy person!

[Uska]

Some really good points made by DDOgamer.

Not really all made by the op

[Maximiliuss]

When the PvP arenas came out we had a blast. Mind you the game was different back then and alot of things were nerfed, changed, and overall forgotten. But DDO PvP was never about being the best, it was about doing it! It was awesome having a fighter chase my rogue through the traps :P. Dodging spells to get CC'd by a cleric. Wait like 30 seconds just to maybe catch someone off guard and you guys are missing the best part of DDO PvP!

The best part is how dynamic and acrobatic this game is! You can hang from ledges waiting for your prey, tumble dodge spells, go supderdupder fast, set traps.. I mean its sooo coool! It was by NO means balanced but no body cared! It was fun to have a small tavern or team brawl just for kicks and to do something different. They should bring it back, stop stressing about the quality of players, trust me that without rewards or ability to grieft all those kids will quit b4 they can even make a good pvp toon.

I miss the old days I guess.