DDOGamer: Understanding PvP Hate

[geoffhanna]

Clearly the very idea of PvP stirs up a lot of unpleasant emotions.

DDOGamer talks about why


Not to worry gentle readers, we are almost done with this series. One more tomorrow and then back to our normal (non-PvP related) drivel.

[Spoonwelder]

To me - playing against the game is stressful enough when I am here for a stress relief. I specifically chose a game free of PVP from the point of view of the main world. I never want to walk around looking over my shoulder or avoiding certain zones etc...I don't want to toggle it off or just be on certain worlds. I get no joy out of defeating (or more likely loosing to) another human in a pixel world.

I play this game because it is a game. I wouldn't play if there were some intrinsic drive in the game to confront other real people. I don't want to 'win' at the expense of someone else 'losing' at any aspect in this game. I like that DDO is in the vast majority (grease clickies aside) a cooperative game.

With that background I firmly oppose any expansion or development of PVP based on the slippery slope argument. I.e. a little more PVP is good so alot more is going to be better.

I haven't read all of your threads on this but I want to point out it isn't just PVP angst and fear of griefing it is also purely a game choice for some.

[sebastianosmith]

I appreciate the effort you've put into this Geoff. I understand your desire to address a segment of the gaming community which enjoys PVP. Having a more robust or varied system for it might attract new players. However, one must ask if those are the sorts of players who would enjoy the rest of the game.

DDO from its conception was designed to be a cooperative game, much like its spiritual predecessor. While there are those gamers who find the co-op experience of TF2 or CS to their liking, the majority with whom I've had any contact are but preening soloists. They keep score in a way that primarily excludes grouping. I find nothing wrong in that style of play. I simply want no part of it and doubt many dedicated PVPers would find the converse exciting.

What the game currently provides for PVP is sufficient if not spectacular. Any additions would have to be monetized in order to make them worth pursuing. That alone would drive most of the existing PVPers out of the game with no guarantee the new features would bring others to replace them.

Thank you again for taking the time to discuss this.

[Flavilandile]

it is also purely a game choice for some.

^_____^
This

If I really wanted to have PvP in an MMO there's enough MMOs around that cater to that specific need that I would be playing there instead of being here.
As stated in the part I cut, some of us are here because PvP is not here, as we find ganking and e-peen waving unpalatable at best.

[Therrias]

People play the same games for different reasons.

http://www.gamerdna.com/quizzes/bart...mer-psychology

[Ape_Man]

Making DDO a good PvP game is like trying to teach my cat how to bark. Write your next article on that subject.

[Memnir]

I don't hate PvP - I hate PvP in DDO.

[Spoonwelder]

Making DDO a good PvP game is like trying to teach my cat how to bark. Write your next article on that subject.

How do you make a cat go woof.......soak it in kerosene throw a match at it....WOOF!

Apologies to all the cat lovers out there but....to follow

How do you make a dog go meow.....throw it in a freezer, take it out the next day, run it through a band saw.....MEEEEEOOOOW!

[MsEricka]

I decided to check out this article to see if you "get it", at least from my perspective, as to why I hate PvP in DDO. This "article" had nothing to say about why people hate PvP in DDO. It was a generalization and in fact talked about other games PvP rather than DDO for a lot of it.

[Dribble]

I decided to check out this article to see if you "get it", at least from my perspective, as to why I hate PvP in DDO. This "article" had nothing to say about why people hate PvP in DDO. It was a generalization and in fact talked about other games PvP rather than DDO for a lot of it.

Your "hate of pvp" is irrelevant and opposition to general pvp improvement is indefensible, so the why's behind it don't really matter. Though you are correct in pointing out his article needs to reach people like you, rational or otherwise, in order to change your mind -- and I agree the piece fails on that level.

[Entelech]

Wow, another willfully misleading article that completely misses the point. Color me surprised.

It's not that I'm afraid of griefing. I played EverQuest for years, and even then, it was impossible to lose your gear to some griefer. That hasn't been an issue since Ultima Online's roving robber gangs. Not only that, but in EverQuest, players could come into conflict even on the non-PvP servers, and I generally did quite well when forced to teach someone else a lesson in manners.

My problem is that PvP tends to appeal to, and attract, some of the worst, most unpleasant players. Others have commented in these threads about the horrible spam in the Harbor when the insecure little kiddies are trying to prove their manhood (Half-Orchood?) in the Wayward Lobster PvP pit.

If I want to deal with that kind of nonsense, I can watch Professional Wrestling. They're better at it. I have a job and a life now, and really don't want to waste my play time torturing some stupid brat until he wakes up to the fact that people are polite to each other FOR A REASON. His parents are supposed to be doing that.

DDO has an older, more mature, more civil player base than most MMO's, and most of us stay here for that very reason. Deliberately dragging in a large cohort of drooling PvP twits is a plan that is both unlikely to succeed, and likely to drive away existing customers.

And yes, I'm serious about the more civil part. When the Devs start to complain about how they're treated here, go look back at the EverQuest forums. Nobody has created a popular webcomic that portrays Tolero as a sock puppet with Munchausen syndrome. They did that for Abashi though, back in EQ.

[Galeria]

I don't hate PvP - I hate PvP in DDO.

^This.

DDO to me is about working together, co-operative play. PvP doesn't fit that model.

I don't care if people want to PvP, but with limited resources to work on the game (obviously) and so many things left to do/fix in the "real" game, I would take more work on PvP to be a slap at the rest of the game which desperately needs attention.

[Bolo_Grubb]

Started Playing DDO because it was the closet thing out there to Pen and Paper Dungeons and Dragons.

I don't hate PvP, I just have no interest in it. I have tried PvP in other MMOs and did not care for it there either. If I want to play against another human, I would rather play battlefield or team Fortress or something similar.

[cdbd3rd]

I don't hate PvP - I hate PvP in DDO.

THAT^, exactly.


(LoL @ Spoon, btw.)

[Entelech]

Your "hate of pvp" is irrelevant and opposition to general pvp improvement is indefensible, so the why's behind it don't really matter. Though you are correct in pointing out his article needs to reach people like you, rational or otherwise, in order to change your mind -- and I agree the piece fails on that level.

(1) See my above post for a relevant defense of her position.

(2) Thank you for helping to support my argument in that post.

[BitkaCK2]

I started typing all this stuff then said to myself, "Meh, nevermind." I found this instead:


bitkaCK2

[Expalphalog]

I go to nearly any comedy website on the internet and what do I see? Hate. Rage. Pain. All in the form of comedy, mind you, but that doesn't change what it is at its core.

I turn on my television and what are my choices? Reality shows? Cartoons for adults? Sitcoms? News programs? Hate. Rage. Pain. Each and every one.

I turn on my radio and what are my choices? Rap (hate)? Rock (rage)? Country (pain)?

Now don't get me wrong. I do enjoy some of it. South Park, old Family Guy, Cracked.com, etc. The point is not that hate/rage/pain is necessarily bad, just that the places I can turn to to escape from it are dwindling fast. It is becoming increasingly difficult to find any form of quality entertainment that is not at the expense of others.

Sometimes I just want to be able to play a game without being cussed at. Without someone specifically trying to ruin my experience. Without feeling like I have to validate my existence to anonymous strangers.

There are thousands of multiplayer PvP games out there. I know. I stare longingly at the advertising for some of them thinking "Wow... That game looks awesome..." Then, invariably, my wife wipes the drool off of my chin, rolls her eyes, and says "No you can't buy that. You'll hate it." But sometimes a man's gotta be a man, sometimes a man's gotta put his foot down, remind her who's boss, and declare loudly and proudly, ".... yes dear" before sneaking back later that evening and secretly buying it anyway! At which point I find that my wife was right. I end up hating the game and wishing desperately that there were a PvE version, or that the PvP zones didn't blend in so seamlessly that I won't realize when I've stumbled into the 'you about to die, motha-f***a!' area on my way between quests. It seems to me that most games that come out nowadays have some form of PvP multiplayer but most PvE games are just single-player.

So, what does this have to do with the price of tea in China? Not a **** thing. Why would you even ask that? That's a really odd thing to ask, dude.

But what does this have to do with the OP? Well, in your article you make the distinction between PvPers and Griefers. You clearly have more experience than I do with the PvP community, so I will acquiesce to your knowledge there and accept that they are different. However I personally have never seen any evidence of the separation, which leads me to believe that the balance of population is heavily skewed in the Griefers' favor.

[Dribble]

(1) See my above post for a relevant defense of her position.

(2) Thank you for helping to support my argument in that post.

There was nothing in your post that even approached a "relevant defense", nor was it remotely logical. What you provided, since you apparently need some clarity, was a rambling and incoherent string of vitriol intended to baselessly group anyone that happens to enjoy playing against a player, rather than playing against a script/AI, into some insulting and narrow label you've invented.

You are free to take that brush of yours and broadly colour any group of players you like. I really don't care. I can not argue rationally against someone taking the kind of position you have taken. What I CAN do however (and what the article should have done a better job with) is address the actual weak argument:

On Players you don't like:
- You have been provided tools to deal with harassment, the same way you have tools to deal with obnoxious people in PVE/chat.
- Turbine has managed to police the game and forums (overly, imo) since going F2P. They can do so with your imaginary drooling PVP crowd as well.
- Various solutions or suggestions on improving/adding pvp actually include separate instances. So for those xenophobic folks that need to protect their virgin ears from mean pvpers, but can't find the /ignore feature...well, it's actually an **improvement**.

I've yet to encounter a rational argument based on anything close to reality. PvP is a very general term and could be added to DDO in a way that not only profits Turbine, but has zero impact on balance. *gasp* It could even happen in a way that gets Pve'ers and RPers excited....!

But no...let's stifle the discussion with non-arguments and +1 each other

[Entelech]

Dribble...

opposition to general pvp improvement is indefensible

The burden of proof on this statement rests with you, not with me.

I've put forth personal reasons for my own distaste for PvP...and thus my opposition to it. They're based on many years of past experience, both in DDO and in earlier MMORPG's, and seem to resonate with several of the other contributors to this thread.

While admittedly, the case that PVP proponents tend to be insufferable jerks is based on direct observation and inductive reasoning, that is not the same thing as "indefensible". Nor would you help your argument by being both a PvP proponent and an insufferable jerk yourself.

I have at no time attempted to make the case that ALL PvPers are bad. Certainly, it can be fun to blow off steam in a cage match against friends, and it can be informative to test experimental builds in the PvP arena (although this is usually a weak predictor of PvE performance of a build).

I do believe, however, that PvP has a strong appeal to certain kinds of obnoxious players, and that it encourages some of them to behave in a more irritating fashion than they otherwise might.

I also believe that when the Devs first thought about DDO, this was likely a part of their considerations. They decided (I believe wisely) to carefully restrict and de-emphasize PvP to venues that permit build testing and a few friendly cage matches, while eliminating the bulk of the negative nonsense that comes along with it.

In light of these opinions, I submit that if you need a game with a strong PvP component to feel satisfied, it is valid to suggest that you get that vital factor by playing some other game rather than messing with a formula that has served DDO well.

After all, I doubt either of us would like DDO to have the market share and revenue stream that Dark Ages of Camelot enjoys...despite the fact that DAoC apparently has superior PvP support (according to the OP's website article).

[Entelech]

Oh...and two other minor notes:

First, the line "But no...let's stifle the discussion with non-arguments and +1 each other" sounds a bit fishy given the current forum rules about, what did they call it, farming positive rep?


Second, "So for those xenophobic folks that need to protect their virgin ears from mean pvpers, but can't find the /ignore feature...well..." is seriously disingenuous. Squelching one or two loudmouths, which is the current situation, is hardly a problem...even if it is irritating (at least irritating enough to trigger your personal squelchification threshold).

Attempting to attract the hordes of PvPers necessary to generate the revenue that would in turn justify the sort of effort the DDOgamer article demands...that's another kettle of fish.

When every trip through a public area with a PVP tavern attached requires adding a dozen names to the squelch list, in a perpetual game of whack-a-mole, you've got a more serious problem. A problem, I might add, that not only infuriates your existing playerbase, but also frustrates the new PVP players because a large fraction of the "haves" in the game are squelching them. If you think "PUGger h8" is a problem now...just wait.