DDO > Neverwinter

[Ape_Man]

Now, what has Turbine done about the grind, realistically?

Made it worse. The ED grind in this game is insane.

[Uska]

Haha what would you like to bet, my friend Uska?

(I have never liked a Cryptic or PW game. Cant stand Chinese MMO culture. Refuse to play 4e at the table and always will. But Cryptic is making Neverwinter in the good ole US of A with WotC, and I think it will make a great accompaniment to DDO.)

Well for me wotc=a huge minus now to after making 4e without much input from input from anyone including play testers and making 5e which isn't going to be much better but then I prefer 1st Ed for dnd and if there was a world of hack Kraft game I would be there rather than here just because of wotc




I would rather be playing hackmaster

[Missing_Minds]

I have in fact followed it very closely, daily in fact. And I can create a text adventure right up to a quest longer and harder than any quest in DDO, and with potentially better graphics and less lag. Neverwinter has a real solution to the typical grind, and will have more quests in its first year than DDO has had in seven. Now, what has Turbine done about the grind, realistically?

How much have you played CO or STO to get an idea of how Cryptic operates?

Tell me, as I've not seen this test done and I ask without being sarcastic. If you have a frame rate of 60 FPS, can the text/keyboard interface for chatting keep up with a 40 word per minute typist?

When CO started it could NOT. And that was the bloody interface! I quit CO when PW started to come in and change polices to fit them. By that point it BARELY could. And note, the graphics were running at 60 frames per second, so it was NOT drawing lag.

[Beethoven]

Sure it is. It's a bonus when a damned good DM can take that same set of small group of like-minded players to new places every time.

Yeah, I was being obstreperous in saying D&D is not about you (LeslieWest_GuitarGod) being a DM, but about someone taking the role of a DM were the quality of the campaign/adventure is directly dependent on the quality of the GM.

I don't doubt that you will be able to produce quality modules. I would not hedge my bets on me because I am not being paid for it (and don't believe I would be able sustain my lifestyle by donations only), have a wife who (even though she also plays) wants attention outside the game too, friends outside the game that want me to be social, a son who started toddler soccer last week, a house (and yard) to take care of and a dog. Nevermind my capability as GM, I simply do not have the time to devote to it than someone who gets paid for it.

My prediction is different than yours; my estimation is that the Foundry by itself will either be:
a) so restrictive too few use it - my experience with good GMs is they want a certain amount of creative liberty in creating adventures/campaigns and if not provided with those liberties they quickly stop bother.
b) eventually will loosen their restrictions leading to tons of modules inevitably subjecting users to spend hours searching for the one rare gem of quality content.

I may be wrong. I hope I will be proofen wrong. I am even likely to give it a try, but I so far I simply have not heard anything that would convince me that I am wrong.

[AZgreentea]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylmYK...eature=related

Another video on combat.

If its free, I might load it up. Sometimes you need a break from one game to play another. I would say DDO is more D&D and I dont like the FR's as much as I like Eberron.

[ThreeEyedBob]

I have in fact followed it very closely, daily in fact. And I can create a text adventure right up to a quest longer and harder than any quest in DDO, and with potentially better graphics and less lag. Neverwinter has a real solution to the typical grind, and will have more quests in its first year than DDO has had in seven. Now, what has Turbine done about the grind, realistically?

Like I said, I think you are in for a bad surprise once you get your hands on Neverwinter. But at this point nobody can say for sure unless they've alpha tested it. I just know from prior experience that things are -never- the way they try to sell it to you.

As for DDO and grinding, yes. The grind is huge and grown even bigger with the ED's. But this focus grind = bad is completely wrong. It isnt about how huge the grind is. It's about how fun the game is to play. If you want to talk about big grinds, look at Asheron's Call 1 (another Turbine title) with its 118 BILLION xp to max level. And I rarely saw people complain about the game being such a frindfest because the gameplay was extremely action oriented. And that is (in my opinion) the saving grace of DDO also. The gameplay is -fun-. Sure, lag and bugs can make an impact at times. But the core gamplay is very action packed.

For me it seems like the MMO industry is moving backwards and sideways towards confined gameplay suited towards console players. The titles from the last year all seem to head this way and from the looks of it, Neverwinter goes the same way.

Whenever a game confines me and limits my choices in character development or gameplay, I really dont like it. And from what was said in that video, it all came across as very confined and boxed in character design. Definitely not my cup of tea.

It's still some time until Neverwinter is released, so more info will be forthcoming, but from the looks of it there isnt really much to cheer for.

[bigolbear]

Well. i have to say that looked prety darn good to me.

objectively i have to say that the voice over guy was clearly trying to appeal the the wowish market, but what i saw was a reasonably active combat system, with inter class combos.

Of course for me the big thing will be build diversity - and im not a fan of 4th edition. If its free ill check it out for sure, whether i stick with it will be determined by many factors, but roleplay support, dungeon building(ddo we NEED this ASAP), and build diversity is what will make or break it for me.

[Grosbeak07]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_p_xhMPk3C4

Combat actually looks really lame. Foundry looks cool though.

Was that Neverwinter or Guild Wars 2?

Seriously they look that much the same.

I think this game will lack the depth that many of us enjoy in DDO (Guild Wars 2 certainly does), the classes will be very similar to each other and even within classes, you won't see much variety.

That being said it may be fun, heck most of us love DnD themed anything, but its not going to challenge DDO. And I'm going to tell you now, there is no end game.. so don't bother rushing to cap !

I think there is a real opportunity here for Turbine and DDO again, they took a gamble with free to play 3 years ago... I think they need to take another gamble and reduce the grind. The game should be about playing content, not maximizing xp.

[Vordax]

Well for me wotc=a huge minus now to after making 4e without much input from input from anyone including play testers and making 5e which isn't going to be much better but then I prefer 1st Ed for dnd and if there was a world of hack Kraft game I would be there rather than here just because of wotc

Have you looked at 5e yet Uska? You can go over to the wizards site and download the playtest material right now. Its definitely a step up from 4e and gives me that 1st-2nd edition vibe too.

[Uska]

Have you looked at 5e yet Uska? You can go over to the wizards site and download the playtest material right now. Its definitely a step up from 4e and gives me that 1st-2nd edition vibe too.

Yes I did look at it and have downloaded it they are still keeping to much form 4E and feels very little like 1st ed to me I tried it ran it a bit for friends they are sticking to runequest and I am sticking to hackmaster they sent me the first stuff a long time as I use to run the dnd game days in my area until I got to fed up with 4E also use to be the local magic tourney guy as well

[Dawnsfire]

I'll be trying Neverwinter when it eventually comes out. I'd be lying if I said Cryptic + PW + 4e doesn't make me really nervous but I enjoyed NWN online too much not to try.

[dragons1ayer74]

I think both games have positives and negatives

DDO
+Character Sheet Customization options
+Best combat of any MMO system I have seen yet
+Visual Content Quality (Some of the audio is great as well)
-Lack of quest content at all levels of play
-Continuous rule changes and nerf cycles
-Heroic Quest balance
-Difficulty Scaling (ties in a bit with quest balance)
-Far too Grindy at nearly all levels of play
-Quests are far too linear
-So buggy its bugs have bugs


Neverwinter
+Foundry toolset
+Visual Character Customization
-Foundry toolset limitations
-Based on 4E rule set
-Too many unknowns

I am looking forward to checking out Neverwinter but it might not EVER arrive.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Well for me wotc=a huge minus now to after making 4e without much input from input from anyone including play testers and making 5e which isn't going to be much better but then I prefer 1st Ed for dnd and if there was a world of hack Kraft game I would be there rather than here just because of wotc

You need to understand I have zero respect for 4e. Its D&D for Dummies, etc etc. Others will staunchly state it isnt, but that's what it is for me. I will never play it, create for it, on the table, ever.

However, after being a diehard DDOer for all this time, just like you've been, and hating 4e, just like you've stated, I still see a shining light for this game.

Now, you'll never hear me say Neverwinter will kill off DDO, that would be ridiculous. DDO will be here for years to come. I'll be playing DDO on its last day of existence.

However, DDO must change, and has, and will change again if they do the UI/enhancement shuffle. Its not the same game it was, for good and bad. We still have to run the same quests we ran in 2006/7/8/9/10/11 etc to level a toon, over and over and over again. Sure you can buy your way past doing some of the quests, but the grind never seems to go away. The quest selection, still paltry considering the instanced beauty of the game. The camaraderie, the combat, the sence of community are HUGE in DDO. All will all keep me as a player.

Neverwinter takes the bold step of handing us a blank sheet of paper and a pen. It gives us a set of rules. Then its up to us to generate something good. If you cant stand or don't have time to design content, others with more time, and/or more knowledge of the lore will be ahead of you designing.

So for the DDO crowd, 4e will be a big hurdle. I have learned a bit from multiple sources very close to the design team what's in store for Neverwinter. I'll be (closed) beta testing as well. This game will be dripping in D&D lore, far more so than DDO has ever been.

The ones that already made up their minds because they've been burned by Perfect World or Cryptic in past efforts, or HATE 4e, I can totally understand. I wish I could layout all the meat and potatoes about the game, but we don't have them yet. I just ask as many as possible to be open minded, and give it an honest chance when it finally does releases. You just might be surprised. I know I was when a friend insisted I try a game from Turbine called Dungeons & Dragons Online.

[Thrudh]

Where this game will come alive is in the user generated content. Some old school Neverwinter 1 and 2 authors have already pledged their support. Imagine you want to create a quest as good or better than what we are used to in DDO (and with a real story line editor too). It will be possible, and without an ounce of programming knowledge.

How is this going to work in a persistent world when I can take the items from one dungeon and use them forever going forward?

How are they handling loot and exp?

[Thrudh]

Meanwhile the same expack gave us spell power with the idea that healers would use their hand slots to carry a healing stick.

I use a helm... I've also seen some nice devotion rings.

My hands hold a big axe.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Of course for me the big thing will be build diversity - and im not a fan of 4th edition.

Yes. THAT will be the deciding factor for many old D&D farts like me.

I have been giving Hell to the devs to ensure there are a custom build options like in DDO, and not just predefined paths. I do believe when the dust clears in 2013, we will have customization that supersedes DDO, IF they do not chicken out and go for "mass appeal" like what's been hinted previously. The Neverwinter community is also adamant in their requests. Most in the Neverwinter community is JUST like us, old school D&Ders that want versatility in build design.

We will have to see what happens. The game will be made. The game already is in Friends & Family alpha testing, and closed beta is around the corner, maybe as soon as this November.

[Thrudh]

Made it worse. The ED grind in this game is insane.

So don't do it. No different than the epic item grind we used to have...

Sands epic items were too much grind, so I didn't do it, and my character was solid in all end-game raids and quests anyway.

Getting full ED twists is too much grind, so I don't do it. I have my main ED maxed out, plus 2/1/1 for twists, and my character is solid in all end-game raids and quests.

[dragons1ayer74]

How is this going to work in a persistent world when I can take the items from one dungeon and use them forever going forward?

How are they handling loot and exp?

From the looks of it you will get XP and loot from killing monsters. As a designer you can pick the encounters base type and then setup appearances and spawn locations. The team is not sure about how they are handling Quest Rewards from my interpretation but they are investigating it. For me it looks like the foundry will be about creating custom stories with the designer having little control over the xp and treasure.

[Karavek]

Man are folks way behind me. I started a thread about NWNO and if DDO was still a worthy investment a while back. Ofcourse DDO fanbois come out swinging.

The upsides to NWNO could be huge. Things like the foundry system being its central focus, and players expected to design their own modules to publish for the games population is an interesting attempt to recreate the modding community bioware had for the old NWN PC games.

4E could be the right move as well, it was long called by older table top dice rollers the MMO of table top RPGs, designed more with the intent to be used as a core model for an online game then one meant for real time RPG strategy.

The heavily predefined classes of 4E do insure people stick to those classic roles some here in DDO are always harping on about.

The downsides is its cryptic, and PWE. I have played cryptic games like City Of heroes their first great success, and saw how they nearly killed it before being fired by NC soft and the game given to its own in house Paragon studios to save. And they did for anumber of long years until these current dark days.

meanwhile Cryptic then went on to make such failures as Champions Online and Star Trek Online. Star trek actually did use the foundry system, and it did get some high praise from players who worked hard using it to make some great ST lore driven adventures. However these stories often got bugged and broken with each update to the game and unlike devs paid for their time, havign thier work invalidated frequently made more players jsut stop bothering with it then waste time on something that would be wiped out a week or two later and need to be rebuilt from scratch.

Finally in CO they kept doing major changes to the game in the way we craft and equip that it invalidated years of effort on some players parts while removing alot of flavor from the games content making it even shallower then at launch for newcomers.

Really its not so much a choice of which MMO is better these days, as it is finally a glaring truth that the table top is where we all should stay, where the code of the Dice and the honor of a single roll saving the party is never forgotten.

MMO are all a waste of time and money and can vanish with the next business earning report. Dont delude yourself into thinking your money buys you the certainty of being able to play even 6 months from now.

[Thrudh]

From the looks of it you will get XP and loot from killing monsters. As a designer you can pick the encounters base type and then setup appearances and spawn locations. The team is not sure about how they are handling Quest Rewards from my interpretation but they are investigating it. For me it looks like the foundry will be about creating custom stories with the designer having little control over the xp and treasure.

Sounds like a good idea to keep xp and treasure out of the designer's hands.

Now what about risk vs. reward vs time spent? Can I make a two-room dungeon that one can complete in 40 seconds? Is end-reward based on difficulty or time spent in dungeon? Do the devs have to manually set rewards and xp for every submitted dungeon?