Is the paladin stigma over?

[Ap0k]

With 30% double-strike they will do more damage S&B.

that would suggest that the twf or thf paladin doesnt have any doublestrike.
without shield you can get 10% from zeal or fighter capstone , 3 from spare hand (or 6% from random loot) and 3 from monk twist as well for 16-19% doublestrike.

and the most bang for your buck doublestrike wise gets thf since doublestrikes only apply to mainhand attacks.

[Vormaerin]

Unfortunately, I think this has more to do with the awesomeness of the Unyielding Sentinel E.D. and less to do with the paladin class itself. Unyielding Sentinel is also an incredible E.D. for animal form druids.

Not really. The Sentinel is only adding 7% of the 30%+ double strike and nothing at all to the glance blows. That's where the DPS is.

[Vormaerin]

and the most bang for your buck doublestrike wise gets thf since doublestrikes only apply to mainhand attacks.

Which is why S&B benefits relative to TWF. As far as 2H goes, it really depends on whether the extra 15% double strike beats the 2H weapon's advantage in Str bonus and power attack.

But paladins have a PrE that benefits from using a shield and none that does anything to help with 2h damage, so even if the DPS is a little behind 2h its still a good trade off.

[emptysands]

Yes, that's what I was saying. It is just that the message seems to have sunk into the masses that "S&B is more viable now" so they are all doing it, but they don't know how to make it effective. It seems they're just equipping a sword and a board and thinking they're done.

Better for tanking, not better for dps. Other modes have seen as large or larger increases.

[Vormaerin]

Better for tanking, not better for dps. Other modes have seen as large or larger increases.

This simply isn't true. In particular, s&b has made up a lot of ground relative to TWFing. The 15% doublestrike gained from shield mastery combined with the way cleave and its destiny enhanced attacks interact with glancing blows and only use main hand really cuts into the advantage of twf.

It doesn't catch up entirely, but it certainly gains ground if done right, even compared to 2H.

The point isn't that S&B is now the best possible dps...its not. It is that its much less of a DPS hit to go S&B now, while the benefits of using a shield have also improved significantly. Before, "tanking" was only worth it in a few specific cases. Now the cost/benefit ratio is significantly better. You get more defense than before and take less of a DPS hit.

[scottmike0]

Recently, I've been seeing more paladin's joining groups and more favorable forums posts about paladins. Actually I feel like I'm seeing more paladins than fighters or barbs, but maybe that's just cause I actually notice them when they join. Yesterday my guild group for Caught in the Web had 3 paladins, more than any other class.

In any case, can we officially say that the paladin has finally done the 180 turn for fun and usefulness? I know that I love mine and have no desire to TR into something different.

i do still enjoy my paladin, although, when exalted smites are gone, i feel my critical hits are weak compared to others...

but still i don't see why most paladins i group with
Either are
(a) Sword & Board
(b) Two handed sword[er]

I feel as if the waning two weapon sword[er] is diminishing the paladins
(as in there has been very little)

[Ralmeth]

Paladin two handed and two weapon got a little boost but they still are behind dps wise when compared to the other classes although adrenaline smites from Fury of the Wild are alot of fun and give paladins a new interesting functionality.

I have to say the paladin S&B is one of the worst played builds in game currently. I have run with some people that played these and I just cringe and not unlike bow rangers back in the old days they are quickly giving paladins a bad name. First an S&B paladin must have at least a 60 intimidate and be willing to use it because then others in the party get sneak damage and you can cluster mobs for the paty to do cleave, whirlwind, momentum swing and lay waste. You can dramatically help out party dps especially if you run with rogues, barbarians, or fighters if you use intimidate.

Second, Whirlwind or Cleave with a momentum swing twists are not optional feats at least one or the other are mandatory feats on all sword and board builds. The dps bump you get from this is not negligible but substantial and dramatically improves your dps and overall build viability. ALL SWORD & BOARD BUILDS MUST HAVE ONE OF THESE FEATS and must be willing to use it and if you select cleave you have to twist in momementum swing.

You rock! I stepped away from playing my Paladin for a while, but the one thing I had been looking to do is to increase my S&B DPS. I will definitely be trying this. Thanks!

As for using intimidate, I agree! Any S&B Pally's job should be grabbing aggro so that you can help increase the DPS of the rest of the party...Gathering up mobs so that casters can hit them with AOE spells, making sure you have aggro so that the rogue gets sneak attack damage, etc.

[maddmatt70]

Better for tanking, not better for dps. Other modes have seen as large or larger increases.

Nope. Sword and Board has seen the largest increase dps of any dps mode type at least post the fury of the wild range nerf. My axehead level 20 fighter build is a total success. Despite moving slowly compared to barbarians and monks the amount of dps that I do as a Sword and Board all the time is amazing. My kills are way up compared to if I S&B the whold time previous to update 14, my dps in dps tests are way up. It is silly and definitely the best thing to happen to S&B in a long time.

[Emili]

Human pure 20: 1 thf, 3 power attack , 6 ithf, 9 cleave, 12 icrit slash 15 greater thf, 18 shield mastery, 21 improved shield mastery, 24 bastard prof, H bonus toughness or CE or great cleave.

My whirlwind defensive paladin is an 18 paladin 2 monk more of a tank then these builds here and uses the raid rapier.

Just am beggin' for clarification here my Matt... have they changed feat repec options?

Speaking of H bonus ... In the past great cleave could not be slipped into a H bonus slot as even on respec required @ feat level prereq of pa + cleave - the system checked that chains were in order, One may shift down pa into the h bonus slot and cleave down to place great cleave into the build however.

[maddmatt70]

Just am beggin' for clarification here my Matt... have they changed feat repec options?

Speaking of H bonus ... In the past great cleave could not be slipped into a H bonus slot as even on respec required @ feat level prereq of pa + cleave - the system checked that chains were in order, One may shift down pa into the h bonus slot and cleave down to place great cleave into the build however.

Well right the feat order might have to be swapped around but the feat list is accurate.

[Emili]

Better for tanking, not better for dps. Other modes have seen as large or larger increases.

Better for tanking, not better for dps. Other modes have seen as large or larger increases.

Definitely ya said so before thought... twf in some sense took a nerf as little synergy outside the “unarmed” was offered for it's support in release while the same feats and ed's in u14 thru u15 changes offered better synergies with 2hf and s&b.

During beta and throughout lam every 'tempest' was up in arms on what to spec... epic feats, epic destinies, balance of ac and dodge vs prr … also reflects within the kensei twf and berzerker twf to extents. Cleaves, great cleaves, overwhelming crit, dreadnaught, fury all support 2hf … toss in a daxe or a bs and there you have a s&b easily cleave 1[w] followed by great cleave 2[w] spamming away and powering momentum, master blitz and procing away glancing extra damages... Think about it, those do not support “off-hand” but they do support glancing.

Funny, in discussions on the cleaves... the main reason why cleave and greater are not designed in DDO to support twf be they do not in D&D, are "mutually exclussive"... but in same right and all fairness cleave and greater are also "mutually exclussive" in D&D. See there are no g2hf % glances there (are no 2hf feats in base D&D)... but in DDO there are. The devs added glancing on cleaves to help make the feats viable for the 2hf minded... but lacked the same insight to add any incentive for a twf.

[Emili]

Well right the feat order might have to be swapped around but the feat list is accurate.

Well, ya, I mean I know they fit and I know you know what you're doin' and really meant. I was just wondering if you knew something like the respec system being changed.

[Emili]

while all of this is undisputed, how many shield tanks does the standard group need? Im talking about the guys that run epic hard house of rusted blades like this.

? Epic hard house of rusted blades is soloable on any character.

What is a real question is whatever beviable to the group ... think outside the box, as long as the shield bearer may contribute decent dps it's fine... and even when two s&b based characters are in group is nothing stopping one of them from going all out 2hf usually, off tanking or shear back-up control shall the first tank be taken out by a lag monster or something.

If there is anything I am a firm believer in ... a character build should be able to eliminate mob, the quest usually always completes there.

[emptysands]

Nope. Sword and Board has seen the largest increase dps of any dps mode type at least post the fury of the wild range nerf. My axehead level 20 fighter build is a total success. Despite moving slowly compared to barbarians and monks the amount of dps that I do as a Sword and Board all the time is amazing. My kills are way up compared to if I S&B the whold time previous to update 14, my dps in dps tests are way up. It is silly and definitely the best thing to happen to S&B in a long time.

Show me the numbers. A LD Barb probably jumped from 550-650 to 1000+.

S&D have to twist in LSM (US2) in order to get the doublestrike bonus. Means they miss out on other twists that contribute to dps. Tunnel Vision requires you to be raged, so if you are in stance you can't twist that, plus you probably don't want the AC penalty.

Kill counts are not a measure of dps.

[maddmatt70]

Show me the numbers. A LD Barb probably jumped from 550-650 to 1000+.

S&D have to twist in LSM (US2) in order to get the doublestrike bonus. Means they miss out on other twists that contribute to dps. Tunnel Vision requires you to be raged, so if you are in stance you can't twist that, plus you probably don't want the AC penalty.

Kill counts are not a measure of dps.

So where is your fictional numbers that you keep pulling out of a hat. I actually play the game and yeah I have played alot of S&B with other folks who bring their two handers and two weapon characters and their two hander and two weapon characters are not gimps but the real deal and yeah the s&b competes with them in ways that were not possible pre-update 14. I know what I am talking about - you on the other meh.

[emptysands]

So where is your fictional numbers that you keep pulling out of a hat. I actually play the game and yeah I have played alot of S&B with other folks who bring their two handers and two weapon characters and their two hander and two weapon characters are not gimps but the real deal and yeah the s&b competes with them in ways that were not possible pre-update 14. I know what I am talking about - you on the other meh.

I've put [1], [2] various numbers out there - mostly attempts to figure out the new systems.

I've asked [3] you for your numbers. Still waiting. Especially this claim. [4]

Anecdotal evidence is all well and good, but it is easy to rationalise that your "kill count" is a sign of good dps, when that is in reality not an effective statistic. And as Axer points out [5] even real world tests don't show your anything like your claim of 85% vs THF.


Based on some numbers I've run myself, best dps a splash fighter tank build can push with eSOS, haste, OC and no ED is ~340 dps. Same build with ML20 Crafted Greater Bane Bastard sword is doing ~250 dps

Pre-ED using similar spreadsheet Barb 20+OC THF are doing 580 dps. TWF Drow Khopesh build is hitting about 590 dps.

These numbers are without Cleave, GC, etc and without Haste Boost.

It is going to take a massive jump for S&B+LD to get close to THF+LD or Fury+TWF.

[1] http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...76#post4678676
[2] http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=390344
[3] http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...32#post4688532
[4] http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...15#post4688115
[5] http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...0&postcount=17

[Ayseifn]

How far behind is khopesh+shield vs DAs? Don't want to have to drop max+quicken for the THF feats if possible.

[emptysands]

How far behind is khopesh+shield vs DAs? Don't want to have to drop max+quicken for the THF feats if possible.

If you have GTHF it is 20%+10%x3 = 50% extra damage for every 3 swings out of 4, say 37.5% extra per swing vs without THF feats 20% (base) extra damage for every 2 swings out of 4, say 10% extra per swing vs 0% on glancing blows for the khopesh.

Cleave+GTHF is better than OC if you do not have room for both.

Gear is a factor. A Drow Khopesh will be good, but a Crafted 2[W] Greater Bane DAxe will beat it.

[drowrogue]

I am planning my legend Pally now, please help me with some calculations:
Definitely going pure human pally DOS III...want to be able to contribute meaningful DPS (since there isn't much to tank anymore) and have a great AC and PRR.
Was leaning towards the 3 dragonmarks of the sentinel and using an epic chimeras fang (+10 Silver Bastard Sword (2d10 Base Damage): Keen, Shocking Burst, Destruction, Shatter +10, Disintegration,grants Bastard sword proficiency, Incite +10%+15%+20%, Greater Parrying, Superior Parrying, and Fortified Defenses +50%) and and crown (+20 hitpoints, +5 Natural Armor, and Spell Resistance 30) since I already have both items.
Also was going to take PA, PL: Barb. (in lieu of toughness), IC: slash, Shield Mastery and Imp. Shield Mastery. Epic feats were going to be Quicken and Empower Healing.

I was thinking the double strikes from the shield feats would make up for some of the loss of DPS from not having the THF line or cleaves. I have a eSoS for the times when tanking isn't required so dropping the IC: slash (because the eFang is keen already) wouldn't be a good idea.

From what has been stated above it looks like I should consider abandoning the 3 DM feats for the THF line, and possibly take cleave and great cleave in lieu of the shield feats? If I'm going that far I may as well take OC instead of Quicken or Empower Healing too. Then I would need to take weapon proficiency in Bastard Sword too without the DM feats.

SO.....
DM I
DM II
DM III
SM
ISM
PA
IC: slash
PL: Barb
Quicken
Emp. Heal


OR...
THF
ITHF
GTHF
Cleave
WF: BS
PA
IC: slash
PL: Barb
Great Cleave
Overwhelming Crit

Obviously the 2nd group of feats nets more DPS, less self healing, and less defense...but how much considering the loss of all of the eFang bonus'?

[psteen1]

Feat selection is a bit of an art, isn't it? Each paladin can do their own thing, and it usually works out unless you are really clueless. My feat selection doesn't exactly follow other people's choices but it works really well for my playstyle:
1) toughness
1) shield mastery
3) power attack
6) extend
9) impr. shield mastery
12) combat expertise
15) stunning blow
18) empower heal
21) cleave
24) great cleave

Not necessarily in that order since I feat re'specced a couple of times in the leveling process. For me, extend is worthwhile so that my short buffs last longer, empower heal is worthwhile as it makes me fully self-sufficient. I don't worry about improved criticial since I am using Oathbreaker, a keen weapon (though that may change in the future if I get a Caught in the Web weapon, and then I would probably drop stunning blow). The only feats I really see as mandatory for a paladin S&B build are the two shield mastery's; everything else can be tweaked and moved around and you can still have a decent build.