Greater Reincarnation: Mornh dual wielder?

[eachna_gislin]

In this thread is a discussion about the usefulness of the Underdark raid loot hammer Mornh:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=385147

I was lucky enough to end up with two (got one right after the raid opened and forgot it in a back bank tab because it didn't look very good, scored a second one earlier today).

So now my THF paladin has two Mornhs. I've been toying with True Reincarnating as a THF drow pally (rapiers). I think before then I'd like to Greater Reincarnate and use Mornh while working on getting the rapiers I need for next life. Mornh is nice but isn't a boss beater for every occasion, thus the rapiers.

Not sure what sort of build to go for that would allow for both rapier and blunt hammer use.

Maybe something like this (adapted from another thread)

Starting Stats:
Str 15
Dex 16
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 8
Cha 17


I have +3 tomes for Str, Dex, Int, and Cha. (edited to correct tomes)

All level up stat points into Str.

Feats:
1 - Toughness
3 - TWF
6 - PA
9 - ITWF
12 - Imp. Crit: Pierce
15 - GTWF
18 - Imp. Crit: Blunt

Not sure what to do with the extra feats (21, 24) from epic levels (OTWF, epic toughness, something else?)

[rakhtal]

Personally I wouldn't go hammer+rapiers. Paladins are already feat starved enough without requiring 2 imp:crit feats.

But if you really don't like hammers and want other boss beaters you can craft min II rapiers. They have keen so you don't need imp crit and they bypass most dr.

[AegonTargaryen]

Anything less than 14 starting con on any toon (even more so on a melee) is gimp. If you can't work the points in by giving up anything else, you better start grinding for a +3 or +4 con tome.

[Lord_WC]

Anything less than 14 starting con on any toon (even more so on a melee) is gimp. If you can't work the points in by giving up anything else, you better start grinding for a +3 or +4 con tome.

This man speaks the truth.

Normal levels+heroic dur would put him at 240. +7 item and +1 exeptional and +2 tome at 365. Toughness, shroud hp, gfl at 460. 2x racial toughness and 3x class toughness at 510. Toughness feat 537.
Ship buff, rage for 587.

My caster has more.

Now if you pair this up with the total inability to cast defensive spells (protection from elements come to my mind), the lack of evasion, and that his place would be where the 300 damage dbfs are flying, I wouldn't be terribly suprised if he would ding a lot.

Some further additions:
Good thing you have 17 cha and 10 int. Drop those, and put the points in con. Sure, 20 cha is nice and all but stones do 0 damage. You can put 4 points more into con and grab a +3 tome while you're there, they are pretty cheap. That would make a nice base con of 18. If you so much want that extra cha point, put one of your levelups in there. But paying 3 points for 1 cha while you can buy con at 1/1 is stupid.
Wanting to get epic toughness with a 12 starting con is pretty optimistic. If all levelups would go into con you would still need a +3 tome for that. ET is pretty much worthless anyway - when you have 21 base con most probably you have enough hp anyway without that +50 (except WF wizzies of course)

[cru121]

chances are that if someone owns 2 mornhs, he/she knows about constitution.

[78mackson]

Mornh is nice but isn't a boss beater for every occasion, thus the rapiers.

huh? please explain to us your thought process on this one...

You don't pick feats anymore, Turbine picks them for you!
hint: you need cleave + gr.cleave. + Ow Crit.

[Hobgoblin]

Anything less than 14 starting con on any toon (even more so on a melee) is gimp. If you can't work the points in by giving up anything else, you better start grinding for a +3 or +4 con tome.

dude? seriously.

its 20 hp.

thats it.

just 20 hp.

the op talks about +3 tomes and duel raid loot.

i think he might just know about that.

seriously bad advice here.

hob

[Lord_WC]

dude? seriously.

its 20 hp.

thats it.

just 20 hp.

the op talks about +3 tomes and duel raid loot.

i think he might just know about that.

seriously bad advice here.

hob

Yet the OP made a toon which most likely will have sub 600hp on a non-evasion melee toon fully pimped.
Btw it's 25 hp, not 20. Epic levels and whatnot. Or you can say that toon has 25hp less than the bare minimum you would want to roll a toon (note, a toon, not a melee). I personally would like 18. Which is 75hp. And that's a lot. And again. My... freaking... caster... has... more. Who runs in a stop sign pattern and all that.

I would honestly love to see a sub600 hp melee in EE. You know where trash hits for 100-150. Good luck with that.

[maddmatt70]

huh? please explain to us your thought process on this one...

You don't pick feats anymore, Turbine picks them for you!
hint: you need cleave + gr.cleave. + Ow Crit.

I am not sure that you are right on this to be honest for a paladin that OW crit is neccessarily the way to go on two weapon fighting fighters or barbarians yeah sure. I do agree that rapiers and bludgeon does not make alot of sense from a longterm perspective. I am also still playing around with my destiny and if Fury of the Wild is better for paladins then shrug.

[grgurius]

Yet the OP made a toon which most likely will have sub 600hp on a non-evasion melee toon fully pimped.
Btw it's 25 hp, not 20. Epic levels and whatnot. Or you can say that toon has 25hp less than the bare minimum you would want to roll a toon (note, a toon, not a melee). I personally would like 18. Which is 75hp. And that's a lot. And again. My... freaking... caster... has... more. Who runs in a stop sign pattern and all that.

I would honestly love to see a sub600 hp melee in EE. You know where trash hits for 100-150. Good luck with that.

First, casters only need 2 stats, while twf palies need 4.

Second, 18 con on anything?, i guess your that type of player that sacrifices everything for more hp. You know too high hp screams bad player same as low hp.

[78mackson]

I am not sure that you are right on this to be honest for a paladin that OW crit is neccessarily the way to go on two weapon fighting fighters or barbarians yeah sure. I do agree that rapiers and bludgeon does not make alot of sense from a longterm perspective. I am also still playing around with my destiny and if Fury of the Wild is better for paladins then shrug.

Cleave and gr . Cleaves are strong enough feats since they got their mini buff. Especially on TWF that lacks any form of AOE without the feats... and I also think that +1crit on 19/20 is a no brainer on anything that melees -- yes spamming DS every 3 second on Pals and a smite every now and then makes it clicky but APM(actions per minute) has become a bigger factor in DDO since ED's..... Mornh and LD seems to marry well, there is a huge post with tons of calculations so no need to say anything else....

[Lord_WC]

First, casters only need 2 stats, while twf palies need 4.

Second, 18 con on anything?, i guess your that type of player that sacrifices everything for more hp. You know too high hp screams bad player same as low hp.

So, yeah, it's totally okay to make a toon that dies from 4 hits, because he needs more stats? Maybe that's why I meet every now and again monks who think it's totally okay to go into an EE run with 500 hp.

Nope. I would prefer 18 con on a non-evasion melee wanting to run EE. Too much hp right now starts at around 900-1000 for someone without evasion. If he pimps out he will have 60% of that... Misjudgding the actual difficulty of endgame screams of bad players as well...

Oh, and before you start heckling about the difficulty word. It's a common ground for wanting to run in a party. I personally (and don't think I'm the minority) won't accept a low hp toon. Not because of wipe, not because 5 of us need someone to pull us through. But I don't want the hassle attached to it - I don't want the divine to babysit him, I don't want people pulling trash one by one so that the little flower doesn't die, I want the quickest and cleanest run possible. There's a hp requirement attached to it - namely the melee doesn't die from the first salvo of the first trash group.

[grgurius]

So, yeah, it's totally okay to make a toon that dies from 4 hits, because he needs more stats? Maybe that's why I meet every now and again monks who think it's totally okay to go into an EE run with 500 hp.

Nope. I would prefer 18 con on a non-evasion melee wanting to run EE. Too much hp right now starts at around 900-1000 for someone without evasion. If he pimps out he will have 60% of that... Misjudgding the actual difficulty of endgame screams of bad players as well...

Oh, and before you start heckling about the difficulty word. It's a common ground for wanting to run in a party. I personally (and don't think I'm the minority) won't accept a low hp toon. Not because of wipe, not because 5 of us need someone to pull us through. But I don't want the hassle attached to it - I don't want the divine to babysit him, I don't want people pulling trash one by one so that the little flower doesn't die, I want the quickest and cleanest run possible. There's a hp requirement attached to it - namely the melee doesn't die from the first salvo of the first trash group.

Difference between 12 and 18 con is like you said 75 hp, 75 hp means nothing when you are running EE content, further EE is all about CC and not hp, so in my groups i prefer chars that can lay down some hurt and not meat bags that hit like kittens.

[Iaga]

.... And again. My... freaking... caster... has... more. Who runs in a stop sign pattern and all that....

Your caster will have 100 hp less from class hit die alone [4/lvl x 25 levels] For your build to have more HP than his you'll need to start with 10 more points of CON. That's not possible if he starts with 12 base.

HP are important.

CON is a part of HP.

CON is not the be all and end all of HP.

[maddmatt70]

Cleave and gr . Cleaves are strong enough feats since they got their mini buff. Especially on TWF that lacks any form of AOE without the feats... and I also think that +1crit on 19/20 is a no brainer on anything that melees -- yes spamming DS every 3 second on Pals and a smite every now and then makes it clicky but APM(actions per minute) has become a bigger factor in DDO since ED's..... Mornh and LD seems to marry well, there is a huge post with tons of calculations so no need to say anything else....

What you say about cleave and great cleave maybe true but it would really sadden me if they are now must have feats for twf. I personally do not like the way cleave and great cleave plays with the range of single handed weapon and the playstyle on a two weapon fighting meleee and that they are inferior on a two weapon melee compared to a two hander melee is an extra lump to take. I was kind of hoping to avoid those feats in a sense and really a paladin is the melee class that has the best chance to avoid them as they have smites and DS spamming which are single target and a limited number of feats to boot.

If I wanted to roll a two hander I would roll a two hander not jerry rig a two weapon fighting melee to be like a two hander. If it does not work out for me with the paladin I will have to tr one of my characters into a rogue I think and try that one out because a rogue is more single target with assasinates and the like.

[unbongwah]

OP: I'm a little confused - are you looking for a build to LR/GR into now; or are you looking for a build to TR into; or both?

In any case, you don't need so much base DEX w/+3 DEX tome; you could drop it to 14 and still be fine. I'm on the fence about whether base CHA 20 is worth the sacrifice, as I'm a bit concerned about your HPs too.

For your TR, does it have to be drow; and does it have to be pure? A monk 2 splash would really help out, both with survivability and feats; and human or HE seems like a better choice than drow.

[78mackson]

What you say about cleave and great cleave maybe true but it would really sadden me if they are now must have feats for twf. I personally do not like the way cleave and great cleave plays with the range of single handed weapon and the playstyle on a two weapon fighting meleee and that they are inferior on a two weapon melee compared to a two hander melee is an extra lump to take. I was kind of hoping to avoid those feats in a sense and really a paladin is the melee class that has the best chance to avoid them as they have smites and DS spamming which are single target and a limited number of feats to boot.

If I wanted to roll a two hander I would roll a two hander not jerry rig a two weapon fighting melee to be like a two hander. If it does not work out for me with the paladin I will have to tr one of my characters into a rogue I think and try that one out because a rogue is more single target with assasinates and the like.

I'm not so sure that the range on twf cleave (at least khopesh wielder) and THF are that much different. There might be a range difference, but the range is satisfying enough for me and I didn't notice a difference while I was leveling up --altering two hander and twf quite a bit..... another sweet bonus is while cleaving your always using the last attack in the chain (nice perk on high AC mobs if your using destruction).

If I was OP, I'd go human -- +1 feat and HV.

Thumb rule is "Drows are not cool."

8+2 feats / LD PL...
twf*3
cleave
gcleave
imp crit: bl
toughness
extend
Ow,cr
Stunning blow or whatever (epic toughness for leverage .. edit. oh well the lower base Con nature of twf-user won't allow that----says turbine)

[maddmatt70]

I'm not so sure that the range on twf cleave (at least khopesh wielder) and THF are that much different. There might be a range difference, but the range is satisfying enough for me and I didn't notice a difference while I was leveling up --altering two hander and twf quite a bit..... another sweet bonus is while cleaving your always using the last attack in the chain (nice perk on high AC mobs if your using destruction).

Sorry but I do notice a difference with reach and the fact that two weapon fighting does not get off hand as well with cleave and great cleave. In pnp these feats have a much different effect then in DDO. I really do not like Turbine's implementation of it which is like pnp's whirlwind attack and quite frankly it makes me not want to play two weapon melee yet because of its power nature it forces people down that road. Rogue might be the only viable two weapon fighting alternative without cleave/great cleave, but I have not totally ruled out paladins yet and want to do more experimenting. I especially want to check out fury of the wild and the synergies and lack of synergies with adrenaline for paladin ( I have only fully tested out LD).

[Kinerd]

Cleave and gr . Cleaves are strong enough feats since they got their mini buff. Especially on TWF that lacks any form of AOE without the feats... and I also think that +1crit on 19/20 is a no brainer on anything that melees -- yes spamming DS every 3 second on Pals and a smite every now and then makes it clicky but APM(actions per minute) has become a bigger factor in DDO since ED's..... Mornh and LD seems to marry well, there is a huge post with tons of calculations so no need to say anything else....

Cleaves turn off the offhand for TWFing.

If we take as granted that Power Attack's one feat is worth +5 damage (knowing that this in fact multiplies out and is therefore worth more), then we can calculate pretty readily what base damage you need to make Overwhelming's three feats worth it: We gain 1 * base on 2 swings per 20 swings, or 1/10 base. Therefore our base damage needs to be (more than) 150. It is not -> OC is of arguable worth for 3 feat slots.

Obviously it's more complicated than this, but the main point is not to be blown away by a number just because it's a number bigger than the number used to be.

[Quetzacoala]

Anything less than 14 starting con on any toon (even more so on a melee) is gimp. If you can't work the points in by giving up anything else, you better start grinding for a +3 or +4 con tome.

This is simply balderdash.

If you know what you are doing, you can do just fine by starting with 12 constitution. The notion that somehow having two more constitution is the difference between being gimped and being acceptable is ridiculous.