Need Help making an unconventional FvS

[ShadowFlash]

Most PPR comes from non-armor sources. But I guess if you don't have a shield then heavy armor may be a good option to get the start of the PRR power curve.

Not quite sure what you mean by this? Most of your PRR will come from your armor AFAIK? Moreover, the "heavier" the armor, the more your BAB contributes to it. For example..

Bonuses from armor proficiency

• Heavy Armor gives you Physical Resistance Rating equal to your Base Attack Bonus +6.
• Medium Armor gives you Physical Resistance Rating equal to 2/3 of your Base Attack Bonus +4.
• Light Armor gives you Physical Resistance Rating equal to 1/2 of your Base Attack Bonus +2.

WF PRR is currently only giving straight BAB (no +6) with adamantine body.

With Adamantine Body...
25 (with Divine Power)
10 passive DoS I
10 passive Tier IV Unyielding Sentinel
=45 (23.6%) Passive Total
10 DoS I Defensive Stance
20 Unbreakable Stance
=75 (34.4%)

Without a body feat (zero PRR granted native)
10 passive DoS I
10 passive Tier IV Unyielding Sentinel
=20 (11.8%) Passive Total
10 DoS I Defensive Stance
20 Unbreakable Stance
=50 (25.7%)

I think these totals (~10% mitigation) warrant the feat cost. This does not even cover the fact, that with the substantial AC that adamantine body grants to docents, DoS boosts to AC, and US's passive AC bonus, A very respectable AC can be reached.

Add to that US's DR auto-grant, Elemental resists from FvS, and nice saves...This can be a VERY survivable build....albiet holistically, rather than specialized.

Master Tough is replacement for martial weapon feat

Paladin Levels are already granting Martial Weapon Proficiency. The only use for Master's Touch would be for Tower Shields. Unfortunately, that's exactly the drawback of Wizard instead of fighter. One wizard level Vs. Two Fighter Levels costs you TWO feats, because you would need to spend an EXTRA feat to qualify for DoS (Fighter grants the qualifying Tower Shield Proficiency for free).

Heal is still pretty good with a devotion item....snip..

Actually, I believe it's...(spell power sources halved and build only has Life Magic III-60sp) Let's also use the highest Devotion source of 120
150base * (1+.3+.6) = 285

For Cure Crit....Caster Level is 17 with Unyielding Sentinel (assuming a 12/6/2 build), same Enhancements, Devotion, and Maximize (150sp according to wiki). This Spell also recieves 115% from all spell power sources.
39base * (1+.69+1.38+1.725) = 187

So yes, Heal is still better. It would be up to the individual as whether or not it's worth it to take FvS 13 (CCW=192) for both Blade Barrier and Heal Vs. the extra feat from 1 Fighter level. The question would be, which feat to drop? I just don't think it's worth it for this particular build. Perhaps if you don't plan on chasing Epic Toughness with a +3 CON tome and level up, dropping it, and pushing OC back to 24 would work if that's your preference.

ShadowFlash

[ShadowFlash]

OK I'm finally home and I LOVE the build but I'm actually thinking of leaving FvS at 8 simply because if I'm going to force this guy up to 20 just to TR him I may as well go for a build that will get me a useful Passive Past life such as Paladin or Fighter.

I'll agree with Therigar, that TR-only builds usually stop at 18 for maximum XP farming potential. That being said, 10 Levels of Paladin get you basically nothing but enhancement progression of smiting and divine sacrifice and uses per day of smites and LoH (which would go up in power as well). Spell gains are lackluster. I'll see how a build works out later, but it probablly won't be pretty.

I think you really need to decide what PL would be most useful to you. Therigar's suggestion has merit IF you value the ranger PL. Fighter PL lost a lot of luster with the changes to to-hit, but the +1 tactics is still valuable for some. Paladin is certainly nice, but healing amp is a lot easier to come by now-a-days, and only really shines when stacked.

I'd suggest looking here... http://ddowiki.com/page/Past_Life_Feats and picking which one you want the most, then just whip something basic together and suffer through 4 levels worth of XP. You could even go all the way to FvS 10 for a Level 5 spell, and no-fail raise dead scrolls depending where your desired PL class is alphabetically.

So don't shoot me (although I may need to be more afraid of Spirtadrift)

Watch out for a raging BowBarian

ShadowFlash

[Stormraiser]

My suggestion to the OP. DO NOT create a character in the hope that a certain thing will come out in future, and that thing will remotely resemble what you think it should. You will be disappointed.

[Stormraiser]

I'm confused when you mention you already TRed your old character into a FVS. Isn't it too late to get build advice with your stats & race locked in?

[Failedlegend]

My suggestion to the OP. DO NOT create a character in the hope that a certain thing will come out in future, and that thing will remotely resemble what you think it should. You will be disappointed.

I'm not relying on Occult Slayer I'm going to be TRing this build into to some sort of THF build regardless I'm just hoping I like OS.

I'm confused when you mention you already TRed your old character into a FVS. Isn't it too late to get build advice with your stats & race locked in?

1. This Character is currently lvl 8

2. Has free xp up to Lvl 16

3. Has a Free LR

So aside from race and 8 lvls of fvs everything can be changed

[ShadowFlash]

As long as you don't think you're going to use the original build Failedlegend, I think I'm gonna copy all of my math and layouts I posted into it's own thread if you don't mind. Initially, I thought, like most, WF would be a handicap, but I like how it's turning out and may pursue it further with gear layouts. I may even chase after some relevant DR and tweak enhancments to suit. I think it makes a very good alternative to the traditional LoB melee build.

ShadowFlash

[Failedlegend]

As long as you don't think you're going to use the original build Failedlegend, I think I'm gonna copy all of my math and layouts I posted into it's own thread if you don't mind. Initially, I thought, like most, WF would be a handicap, but I like how it's turning out and may pursue it further with gear layouts. I may even chase after some relevant DR and tweak enhancments to suit. I think it makes a very good alternative to the traditional LoB melee build.

ShadowFlash

Go for it, although I'm going top recommend it to a friend if you don't mind I think she'll love it

[emptysands]

Not quite sure what you mean by this? Most of your PRR will come from your armor AFAIK? Moreover, the "heavier" the armor, the more your BAB contributes to it. For example..

With Adamantine Body...
25 (with Divine Power)
10 passive DoS I
10 passive Tier IV Unyielding Sentinel
=45 (23.6%) Passive Total
10 DoS I Defensive Stance
20 Unbreakable Stance
=75 (34.4%)

Without a body feat (zero PRR granted native)
10 passive DoS I
10 passive Tier IV Unyielding Sentinel
=20 (11.8%) Passive Total
10 DoS I Defensive Stance
20 Unbreakable Stance
=50 (25.7%)

Consider a light armour build I'm working on [1]. At PRR 133 (47.9%) the armour contributes only 13/133 = 10% of the total. Increasing this to Heavy Armour would be 23/144 or 16% of the total, but a much less contribution to the actual damage migration.

So given your numbers above it comes down to the question of feat giving 8.7% more PRR (say DR9 on 100 dmg) vs using that feat for something else. It's a valid build choice for a WF only build option.

I've several WF, including a Rock Candy build ages back. One of the aspect I liked it that WF with required to use a feat in order to get heavy armour. So for example if your build was switched to human, you would then gain effectively two feats and still have the heavy armour option.

I think these totals (~10% mitigation) warrant the feat cost. This does not even cover the fact, that with the substantial AC that adamantine body grants to docents, DoS boosts to AC, and US's passive AC bonus, A very respectable AC can be reached.

Add to that US's DR auto-grant, Elemental resists from FvS, and nice saves...This can be a VERY survivable build....albiet holistically, rather than specialized.

The AC contribution will be useful as well. Although personally I prefer dodge over AC, as dodge scales better in EE content. It depends on your MDB, gear restrictions and twists as to whether you can get a useful dodge.

Any thoughts on good docents? Upgraded Ancient Gemstone with the Amaunator's may be easy to get. Or the PDK set. Upgraded Stone Heart bit more tricky.

That is one advantage of WF and Docents - you could get a light armour/evasion build with an upgraded PDK Stone Heart.

Paladin Levels are already granting Martial Weapon Proficiency. The only use for Master's Touch would be for Tower Shields. Unfortunately, that's exactly the drawback of Wizard instead of fighter. One wizard level Vs. Two Fighter Levels costs you TWO feats, because you would need to spend an EXTRA feat to qualify for DoS (Fighter grants the qualifying Tower Shield Proficiency for free).

Master's Touch will give you Khopesh, Bastard Sword, Tower Shield and other proficiency. Unfortunately not however the prereq for DoS.

and Maximize (150sp according to wiki). This Spell also recieves 115% from all spell power sources.
39base * (1+.69+1.38+1.725) = 187

Where does this 115% coming from?



[1] http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...48#post4642948

[ShadowFlash]

Consider a light armour build I'm working on [1]. At PRR 133 (47.9%) the armour contributes only 13/133 = 10% of the total. Increasing this to Heavy Armour would be 23/144 or 16% of the total, but a much less contribution to the actual damage migration.

So given your numbers above it comes down to the question of feat giving 8.7% more PRR (say DR9 on 100 dmg) vs using that feat for something else. It's a valid build choice for a WF only build option.

I've several WF, including a Rock Candy build ages back. One of the aspect I liked it that WF with required to use a feat in order to get heavy armour. So for example if your build was switched to human, you would then gain effectively two feats and still have the heavy armour option.

The percentage's I listed were the actual damage mitigation amounts...so between 9-12% difference depending on combination of stances, which is important, as mix-and-matching stances ( 3 from US and madsone vs DoS for heroic) will be essential to the build. This is still below the threshold of diminishing returns, but close to the sweet spot for easy PRR. I'm not pushing the envelope with extreme PRR, jusy supplementing easy mitigation. The big problem right now with WF, is that no body feat = Zero PRR and absolute crud AC, so it's not like a fleshie, where any light armor will gain some PRR.

The AC contribution will be useful as well. Although personally I prefer dodge over AC, as dodge scales better in EE content. It depends on your MDB, gear restrictions and twists as to whether you can get a useful dodge.

Any thoughts on good docents? Upgraded Ancient Gemstone with the Amaunator's may be easy to get. Or the PDK set. Upgraded Stone Heart bit more tricky.

That is one advantage of WF and Docents - you could get a light armour/evasion build with an upgraded PDK Stone Heart.

My kid is actually the WF expert ATM, and I haven't run it by him yet Dodge chasing on a THF warforge would be tough, especially seeing as feats are tight and unyielding sentinel is basically required to pull it off. I see this as an easy solo/short-man farming toon with no twists necessary. I would HATE to farm non-divine ED's with this build. I had a build worked up with 2 monk instead of 2 fighter, but I really don't like it post U14, and prefer the PRR. Ancient Gemstone is nice with PDK or even the Cleric set as CHA and WIS both add to SP and CHA adds to smites/Lay on Hands. Honestly, I just haven't gone further than a cursory glance at gearing post U14. I think gearing has become sooo much easier now, that builds don't have to rely on a specific set of epic gearing like they use to. Hesck, IMO, greensteel isn't even a "must-have" anymore.

Master's Touch will give you Khopesh, Bastard Sword, Tower Shield and other proficiency. Unfortunately not however the prereq for DoS.

I see you're really pushing at that wizard splash...but nope again, Master's Touch is only for simple or martial weapons, all of which is already granted by class mix....So no free exotics

Where does this 115% coming from?

MadFloyd...

While looking into the gameplay experience of healers, we’ve determined that a number of tools available to you are not performing to a satisfactory degree in higher level play. To that end, we are increasing the amount of Spell Power that the following spells benefit from: Cure Light Wounds (115%), Cure Moderate Wounds (115%), Cure Serious Wounds (115%), Cure Critical Wounds (115%).

Haven't checked out your build link yet...I will before bed

On a final note...Human, or another race, may bring other benefits (I first designed this for a dwarven battle-cleric TWF TR), but there's a lot of LoB builds out there that got kicked in the nads hard with U14. My kid's favorite build was an LoB, and now he won't even play it. For these folks, who already have significant greatsword and docent gear investments, I think this build would work as an easy TR out of the "part-time healer" role, and into a more self-sufficient DPS role. Nice for small groups or solo...perhaps not ideal for EE raiding.

ShadowFlash

[emptysands]

The percentage's I listed were the actual damage mitigation amounts...so between 9-12% difference depending on combination of stances, which is important, as mix-and-matching stances ( 3 from US and madsone vs DoS for heroic) will be essential to the build. This is still below the threshold of diminishing returns, but close to the sweet spot for easy PRR. I'm not pushing the envelope with extreme PRR, jusy supplementing easy mitigation.

I guess my point was that armour type is not the be all requirement for a good PRR. However, you are right AC is a factor as well. It's a fine balance vs the power curves.

Another factor is evasion. For melee types lack of evasion can be very painful know if you don't have high HP vs content. For example will levelling my Raging Critic build (step stone to the tank build I linked) I found even running GH TOR Elite pretty tricky - 2-3 chain lightening strikes for 150 per hit and you can get into trouble quickly. This is even more important for low reflex save THF builds in Epic content.

What ever the case, your build is I think with some more though a good enough balance. Maybe just not to my taste.

The big problem right now with WF, is that no body feat = Zero PRR and absolute crud AC, so it's not like a fleshie, where any light armor will gain some PRR.

Yeah, as I said. This is one reason why I dislike WF at the moment.

My kid is actually the WF expert ATM, and I haven't run it by him yet Dodge chasing on a THF warforge would be tough, especially seeing as feats are tight and unyielding sentinel is basically required to pull it off. I see this as an easy solo/short-man farming toon with no twists necessary. I would HATE to farm non-divine ED's with this build. I had a build worked up with 2 monk instead of 2 fighter, but I really don't like it post U14, and prefer the PRR. Ancient Gemstone is nice with PDK or even the Cleric set as CHA and WIS both add to SP and CHA adds to smites/Lay on Hands. Honestly, I just haven't gone further than a cursory glance at gearing post U14. I think gearing has become sooo much easier now, that builds don't have to rely on a specific set of epic gearing like they use to. Hesck, IMO, greensteel isn't even a "must-have" anymore.

Basic gearing is easier. Especially with a lot of the new random loot. Power gearing is as tricky as always.

I see you're really pushing at that wizard splash...but nope again, Master's Touch is only for simple or martial weapons, all of which is already granted by class mix....So no free exotics

The idea for switching from Fighter to Wizard comes from the Nox cleric build: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=385629. Works well for that build.

Without the 40 boost to barrier, I agree it turns out poorly.

MadFloyd...

Thanks for the link.

On a final note...Human, or another race, may bring other benefits (I first designed this for a dwarven battle-cleric TWF TR), but there's a lot of LoB builds out there that got kicked in the nads hard with U14. My kid's favorite build was an LoB, and now he won't even play it. For these folks, who already have significant greatsword and docent gear investments, I think this build would work as an easy TR out of the "part-time healer" role, and into a more self-sufficient DPS role. Nice for small groups or solo...perhaps not ideal for EE raiding.

I had two LOB eSOS WF builds: 20 FvS and 20 Paladin. The Paladin is now a HO 12 Barb/7Bard/1Fighter, on it's way to a tank. The FvS is in the not interested in playing, can't figure out what to TR into box at the moment.

Most people are not going to EE raid - hardly worth it with broken loot drops. However EE quests for favour are important and can be fun.

[ShadowFlash]

snip.....

A lot of banter, but I think we see eye to eye now My build, which was only a basic concept given the OP's parameters does need more fleshing out, I agree. I like your's a lot from the power-gamers point of view (+3 tomes and ideal gearing). I need to think a bit more on final gearing and numbers before posting a "real" version, but you did get me thinking.

+1 for an awesome discussion so rare on the forums these days

ShadowFlash

[Failedlegend]

Ok I'm still considering S-Flash's build but I wanted to see how Fighter9/FvS8/Paladin3 looks...choosing is hard

Warforged Lawful Good Fighter9/FvS8/Pally3

Str 18
Dex 8
Con 16
Int 14
Wis 6
Cha 12


Level Order: FvS 1-8, Fighter 9, Paladin 10 - 12, Fighter 13 - 20

1 Extend
3 Dodge
6 Mobility
9 Spring Attack
9* Combat Expertise
12 Whirlwind
13* Power Attack
15* Cleave
15 Toughness
17* IC:Slashing
18 Maximize
19* Great Cleave

Skills: Balance, Jump, Concen (Half-Ranks on Fighter Levels)

[ShadowFlash]

while not looking too far into it, what paladin3 get you? Could you drop to paladin 2, so you have both great cleave and maximize at 18 (your ideal hold level) ? You should never see level 19, so pushing everything you can before that would be nice. I like the idea of spamming cleave, great cleave, and whirlwind, but all synergy between FvS and paladin is gone...so much so, taking NO PrE might work better for you.

ShadowFlash

[Failedlegend]

while not looking too far into it, what paladin3 get you? Could you drop to paladin 2, so you have both great cleave and maximize at 18 (your ideal hold level) ? You should never see level 19, so pushing everything you can before that would be nice. I like the idea of spamming cleave, great cleave, and whirlwind, but all synergy between FvS and paladin is gone...so much so, taking NO PrE might work better for you.

ShadowFlash

Pally 3 is for Disease and Fear Immunity (or...save bonus?)...actually now that I think about it I should probably drop Maximize since I'm not getting Blade Barrier.

How about...


Warforged Lawful Good Fighter9/FvS8/Pally3

Str 18
Dex 8
Con 16
Int 14
Wis 6
Cha 12


Level Order: FvS 1-8, Fighter 9, Paladin 10 - 12, Fighter 13 - 20

1 Extend
3 Dodge
6 Mobility
9 Spring Attack
9* Combat Expertise
12 Whirlwind
13* Power Attack
15* Cleave
15 Great Cleave
17* IC:Slashing
18 Toughness
19* Doesn't matter...uhhhh....Brutal Throw

Skills: Balance, Jump, Concen (Half-Ranks on Fighter Levels)


Now the question is which build will be more entertaining between Lvl 16 - 20 (or 18+ 2 lvls of xp)

[emptysands]

Fighter 8 is a common break point. Fighter 9 doesn't give you much: no feat and no worthwhile enhancements.

FvS10/Fighter8/Paladin2 would be better split - FvS 10 gets you Divine Punishment.

The main problem with a mixed build like this, is too much. Better to focus on one or two functions that work well, rather trying too much.

FvS 12/Fighter 6/Paladin2 would be a much better again for this reason.

Note, you'll still want Maximise for your healing spells.

[Therigar]

Fighter 8 is a common break point. Fighter 9 doesn't give you much: no feat and no worthwhile enhancements.

FvS10/Fighter8/Paladin2 would be better split - FvS 10 gets you Divine Punishment.

The main problem with a mixed build like this, is too much. Better to focus on one or two functions that work well, rather trying too much.

FvS 12/Fighter 6/Paladin2 would be a much better again for this reason.

Note, you'll still want Maximise for your healing spells.

IMO this loses track of the goal state set by the original poster. It looks too much at making a character that can exist in the world beyond L18 and forgets that OP intends an immediate TR on hitting the XP for L20.

FvS does get Divine Punishment and that is a great spell, but it means that the character has to go with an even 10/10 split for the past life to become something useful to the OP. If FvS were the past life that they wanted then there would be no real reason for this thread -- OP would just continue on with FvS.

The build is effectively 7 fighter/8 favored soul/3 paladin as OP has written it. The last 2 fighter levels are moot since they are taken once hitting the L20 XP cap. This is why the on brutal throw.

The only things I would do differently is that I would drop INT to 10 and tank CHA. The healing part is too minor to worry about as it isn't really useful to groups. So, no primary healer role. The only purpose of the FvS spells then is to boost melee capability and to provide buffs. A huge spell pool isn't really needed and the investment in CHA doesn't really seem to gain much.

Same for INT. No need to try and keep skills boosted. Perhaps concentration just for emergency self-cures but definitely not jump. Balance is always useful on a melee but does not need to be maxed out.

The reason I say "definitely not jump" is because jump tops out at (IIRC) +40. It is simple to get jump to +10 without investing even one skill point -- and this presumes a 30 STR w items. Even if a player doesn't want to rely on others for a jump spell, there should be no reason to have more than 20 ranks. And, honestly, more than 10 ranks is probably overkill.

In a similar way, more than 10 ranks in balance is probably overkill. While the balance skill says it is DEX based, in reality the better of DEX or STR is used when recovering from being knocked down (the only thing balance actually helps). Balance never prevents knockdown, so the only thing it does is help you get back on your feet. At +20 it is usually enough.

Again, this is focused on OP's stated intent to TR soon after reaching L20. I understand that some of this wouldn't apply if they were sticking around to run epic levels or running certain quests where more jump might be useful.

IMO OP should go ahead and invest tomes into the character since the intent is to TR. Start stacking them on into stats that will have future benefits. In my case I'd think that means piling on +2 and +3 tomes in every stat.

At 6 CHA the character can stack a +3 tome, grab a +1 CHA enhancement (no need to spend the points for +2) and toss on a +6 stat item for a 16 CHA. That generates some benefits from the paladin levels and still gives enough CHA to cast all the spells that they'll have available.

At 10 INT the character can stack a +2 tome and have 3 stat points to work with from L8 onward. That is enough to put half ranks into every skill (jump, balance, concentration) and still have them at useful numbers at L18.

Assuming tome use, OP could drop CON to 19 and raise INT to 12 and CHA to 7. This is about the most I'd do to gain some small boost to skill points and total CHA. IMO OP should not loose track of the stated purpose for the character. Better to excel at one thing (melee in this case) than to try and cross off too many nice to haves on a character that is being redesigned.

[Failedlegend]

Better to excel at one thing (melee in this case) than to try and cross off too many nice to haves on a character that is being redesigned.

Thats the main reason I'm taking cleave, great cleave, whirlwind I figure it will be the quickest way to cut down some enemies to hit 20 as for tomes I'm pretty much fresh out I have a few +1s but that's about it I used most of my tomes on my Wizard and TRed him like a week before we were told about the change to say that Tomes stay after TR. The reason for 9 Fighter is simply for the Passive Past life (mostly the +1 Tactics) oh and the Int is for Combat Expertise which requires 13...went 14 to make it even.

[Therigar]

Int is for Combat Expertise which requires 13...went 14 to make it even.

Too bad you don't have the tomes to throw at the build. In that case I'd go 18 STR, 19 CON and 13 INT. Toss your +1 tomes at each of those stats at L3.

Still feel CHA is pointless for the character.

OTOH, I don't have to play it so I encourage you to do what you feel most comfortable with. Sounds like the thread has been useful to you as you seem to have come to a good concept that fits your play style and intent.

Best of luck and let us know how it turns out.

[Stormraiser]

I'd suggest you go with a staff:

12 FVS 6 monk 2 paladin

STR 16
Dex 10
Con 16
Wis 12
Int 8
Char 14
=32 points

Feats:
PA, Toughness, 2hf, Ihf, Ghf, dodge, cleave, great cleave, improved crit, improved sunder etc.

You'll have evasion and decent saves to go with it. You can be centered and in stance with the quarterstaff, you can cast blade barrier and basic buffs along with the AOE2 light damage. You'll have small dodge bonuses from monk, but incorp from dark monk along with sneak attack.