A calm discussion regarding Divines

[DeafeningWhisper]

This... good post. Plus every melee has easy access to a 30% healing amp item now. Healing has NOT been nerfed. Healing is easier than before.

Seriously when the devs come out and say we have nerfed Heal and Heal, Mass to keep them at the same level as before U14 I think you and everyone else who keeps saying "there was no nerf" should maybe stop saying that.

Also you assume everyone wears the PDK gauntlets, I have seen many 1200+ WF melees without a single amp item.

If your only proof that healing is easier is the fact other players gear help healing, which is completely out of the hands of the healer mind you, I don't think your argument holds any water.

[Thrudh]

This is an unacceptable playstyle change to me that should not be asked of anyone.

LOL. It already is asked everyone. Almost everyone else switches weapons depending on the situation. If you don't want to switch weapons, get some wearable items.

I'm 100% for asking the devs to release some more wearable devotion, radiance, and impact items.

I'm also 100% for them going back and tweaking some old epic items with devotion on them.

So I'm with you, but you guys need to stop saying that your melee divines have been nerfed into the ground. They haven't.

You don't need optimal max healing to effectively keep everyone in your party alive. 70 devotion or 90 devotion is plenty good. You don't have to freak out that there is a weapon with 108 devotion, and therefore you MUST use it, because 108 is bigger than 90.

[DeafeningWhisper]

LOL. It already is asked everyone. Almost everyone else switches weapons depending on the situation. If you don't want to switch weapons, get some wearable items.

I'm 100% for asking the devs to release some more wearable devotion, radiance, and impact items.

I'm also 100% for them going back and tweaking some old epic items with devotion on them.

So I'm with you, but you guys need to stop saying that your melee divines have been nerfed into the ground. They haven't.

You don't need optimal max healing to effectively keep everyone in your party alive. 70 devotion or 90 devotion is plenty good. You don't have to freak out that there is a weapon with 108 devotion, and therefore you MUST use it, because 108 is bigger than 90.

So why do we HAVE to get devotion? Before I could just get Potency, but for some "balance" reason Turbine decided I shouldn't and nerfed it hard.

While it was probably done to curve arcane power they are the least hurt by this since they can stick to ice and lightning most of the time or the savant element of their choice.

Divines on the other hand require: light/force/devotion, and we only have 2 hands...

[Thrudh]

What i've lost in Heal i've gained in mass heal.

That's a good point too... Many of us don't have a "Devotion IX" item. My mass heals were buffed, not nerfed, by the spellpower change.

These changes were not done in a vaccuum. With PRR and Dodge, and AC mattering even at low numbers, and easier access to heal amp, it's not that hard to heal a group, even if you're not using the absolute best devotion item.

[Thrudh]

what i'm trying to say with my posts is that it's ok to have 66 devotion instead of 100. That *is* a valid choice. You don't always have to have the absolute best of everything maxed to be useful and have fun. It's also a valid choice to swap a weapon now and again to get max healing. It's another choice to just not play divines if that is what you want.

Whereas before you could be every bit as good of a healer regardless of your gear because of a clickie, now choices have to be made as to what you specialize in and wear.

Good luck on your quest to have more devotion items added, i agree it would be nice to have more choices.

+1

[KillEveryone]

swapping between 2 caster items or 2 melee items is different than swapping from melee item to caster item.

there is a very big difference between losing a couple of DC and losing the ability to melee.

you may have to decrease say your dps with light spells or BBs slightly but those spells will be able to do significant damage while you maintain maximized heals.

I don't mind sacrificing maxed str or the ravanger set to maximize my heal. what I do mind is not being able to reasonably melee and maximize my heals

All I'm asking for is the ability to use a DPS wpn *not do max dps* which is essential to doing melee at all (again I can care less if my DPS is min/max) while being able to maximize my heals.




This is one of the main points of the OP. though it's more towards having higher levels of devotion actually drop on something other than a wpn.

You don't get it.

I am not maintaining heals at full power.

I AM NOT MAINTAINING FULL DPS AT ALL TIMES IN ALL ABILITIES.

You loose DPS when you have to swap to a devotion item. I loose DPS when I have to swap in my devotion item because now my blade barriers won't work as well.

You loose DPS when you have to swap to a devotion item. I loose DPS when I swap to a DC item because now all my heal spells, light spells, and blade barrier won't work as well.

I have more than one spell going typically, either I'm blade barriering while DC casting or casting light spells. EIther way, I'm loosing something somewhere.

If I have to heal, I have to swap to my devotion item and that is huge when I'm trying to DC something because that DC weapon actually has a real boost for my spells.

It is NOT DIFFERENT IN ANY WAY than you swapping weapons. Get that into your head. THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN YOU AND ME WHEN SWAPPING WEAPONS.

If I swap to my devotion/radience item, I give up on DC and blade barrier. It it significant if I don't have my enchantement item if I wish to greater command. It is significant if I don't have my necro item on if I want to destruct/slay living. It is significant if I do not have my evocation item if I want to implode.

There is more than a "slight reduction" either. Best item I have to wear is the cannith circlet that offers 72(I think, I'm sure it isn't in the 80s) spell power to devotion and radiance. My main light/devotion stick offers 108 spell power to both plus implement. I cut my healing and radiance a lot when I have to swap out for other effects.

Seriously, get this into your head.

It is huge if I don't have the necessary items on to make my spells effective.

I have to swap weapons just like you to be able to maintain my effectiveness.

I am loosing DPS if I have to swap to a devotion item because I loose DPS on my blade barrier. I am loosing DPS if I have to swap to a necro or enchantment item because my light spells are pitiful and I use that 3 SP spell from destinies a lot but the damage goes down quite a bit if I have to DC something and I usually tag a critter with divine punish and DC some.

It is significant for me to swap items to amp up the spell that I'm casting or trying to land. I

It is no different than when you have to swap a item to heal youself.

[Thrudh]

Seriously when the devs come out and say we have nerfed Heal and Heal, Mass to keep them at the same level as before U14 I think you and everyone else who keeps saying "there was no nerf" should maybe stop saying that.

My mass heals got buffed... My cures got buffed... my heals got nerfed slightly.

Overall healing is easier than ever. Hard to call that an overall nerf.

Also you assume everyone wears the PDK gauntlets

Pretty good asumption. +7 STR and +2 exc CON and 30% healing amp. Not many melee players are going to pass that up. The only people who don't want that are vets with better gear, and melee vets with good gear already know how important heal amp is.

I have seen many 1200+ WF melees without a single amp item.

So you let them die. And they learn.

If your only proof that healing is easier is the fact other players gear help healing, which is completely out of the hands of the healer mind you, I don't think your argument holds any water.

Oh, it's in the hands of the healer. If people play stupid, they don't get healed... Believe me, I can control other people when I'm on my healer... Been doing it for years.

Even at low levels, I can control others... I tell them I'm out of SP, down to my last wand (I probably actually have 3-4 wands left), and we better move slow and careful to the next shrine, and 90% of the time, they do exactly what I say...

The other 10%, they don't listen, we wipe, and they learn a valuable lesson (well, there's the 2% that NEVER learn, but they get added to the list after a while).

[deahamlet]

@KillEveryone

No.

Here is what my caster could do before I re-spec-ed her to melee:
BB stick (impulse) + Healing stick (devotion) = trash time
Light stick (radiance) + Healing stick (devotion) = boss time woot!
Party doing fine cause they are so super-uber?
BB stick + Light stick = aye caramba!

I'm not in the mood to kite little buggers through BB or my party is not amused by such in ToD for example? Necro DC stick (or sickle) + healing stick = Evo and necro instakills frenzy!

At no point did my DPS go down. I can imagine it being a bit more hectic in the new raid, but I can imagine swapping between the wizard staff and a light+healing stick combo as my instakills go on timer to be okay enough. As implosion is on timer, I can even swap to my BB stick + healing stick combo to kite little buggers.

The key here being that during ALL of these choices of weapon sets, I am continuing to DPS like a mofo without any break other than the time it takes to swap.

Compare this to my THF FvS reincarnation. It used to be: maybe swap in a different item set that lowered my melee DPS a tad (buh-bye sneak attack bonus sniffles), throw heal/mass cure/mass heal (whichever needed), back in business. Only lost DPS with casting time which I reduced as much as humanly possible by taking Quicken among the long list.
Now to get similar results as I would get pre-U14, I have to swap to a healing stick during which time I CANNOT melee, cast my spells, swap back, start hitting again resuming melee. Kicker is, because I'm spending that time swaping and not doing DPS, I might get a couple hits in before I have to do the whole song and dance all over again.

My caster could continue to throw down light spells and devotion spells and ONLY swap weapons when enemy typed changed. So most times maybe 2 swaps before boss and NO SWAP at boss.

[Dingleburr]

Didn't you hear? Swapping in your heal stick every time you want to throw a heal is the most fun in the game!

I, for one, have adapted and I hotkey my healstick in before throwing mass heals. I absolutely HATE doing this. It's annoying as hell and brings me no fun, to the point where in any non-critical section, I'd rather have people die due to incoming damage than do this.

In a non-critical situation (your words), you'd rather let someone die than cast 450 point heal instead of a 500 point heal? As if tossing a marginally sub-optimal heal is the end of the world? Really? Really?

Just to clarify: you don't swap in the heal stick for every heal - you swap it in when the situation demands that healing be your sole focus. And in that case, you should probably also be holding a scroll anyway.

[Chette]

My main issues with the divine classes right now are as follows:

1. No enhancements for force or fire damage, other than FvS PrE. A lot of the power for spell damage that was lost with the change to spell power was to be "made up for" by increased spell power from enhancements. This doesn't matter if you don't get any spell power enhancements.

2. Very few items with consolidated spell power. An arcane caster can get away with just two weapons that provide all the spell power they need for all their damage types, a divine cannot, even making use of alchemicals, because they use three different non-elemental damage types. Arcanes also have challenge items with 90 spell power and superior lores on non-body slots, as well as a great consolidation item in the ring of elemental essence. The holy symbol of lolth is the only item in the game with multiple useful spell powers on it that is available to divines. Radiance lore items don't even drop except as prefixes on random armor, never on weapons, and never as a suffix with a good spellpower as the prefix like with all other damage types.

3. No DC enhancements in their main destiny. Wizard and Sorc all have DC enhancements, I think even Bard does as well. Nothing for Exalted Angel though. Not as big a deal with twists of fate, but with EA being so far away from the Dragonic and Magister, more casual players will not have access to them for quite some time.

4. No superior spell power potions for force or light damage, only greater. Superior spell power enhancement potions are available for all elemental damage types, as well as for healing, but not for any of the damage types that a divine casts.

5. No divine, or universal, augmentation. Arcane casters have access to many powerful items which boost their caster level while divine augmentation doesn't exist in any way shape or form.

6. Reduction in the spell power for heal, for the purposes of keeping its power equal to the power of a pre-U14 heal (although for most players it's actually lower) while no other spell or ability was kept capped at its pre-U14 output. A level 25 character with increased HP, damage output, and damage intake should not be restricted to the healing output of a level 20 character of significantly less power taking significantly less damage.

[Seneschul]

but everytime after I get worked up over the forums... and I really think "yeah!! they nerfed my divine!!!" I hop onto my cleric... and fail to see the proof...

This.
I was a melee cleric with 1 level of fighter before MoTu. (Managed to hit level 20 4 days after motu, first lifer - it's also my first 20)
Eventually I realized I like killing things with Destruction/slay living. I LR'd and picked up the 2 schools for that.
Didn't realize that it'd be less than useful on Epic Hard/Elite - but that's A-ok.

I'm still having fun. I whip out Terror and I melee. I whip out my divine glowstick and I turn on my 90+ seconds of healing aura - does 33 hp a tick, and it all goes into the melee boyos since I'm right up there with them.

Sure, if the mob(s) do AE/splash damage I drop back just out of reach, swap in my devo weapon and heal.

What are the rest of you nudnicks doing using only one weapon like yer married to it?

Is it time to slay living? whip out your spell pen item and hope for the best
Is it time to show'em who has an awe-inspiring wep? Whip it out and shove it in the bad boys faces, ye?
Is it time to heal? Drop back, whip out that devo item and show'em who's the boss of being useful.

THIS is why devo items are neccessary - and why you should pack in your caster/melee weapon when you see the need to heal.
THIS is why I'm not worried about the enhancement overhaul and maybe NOT being a radiant servant.
Because I can whip out the +4 Devo scepter of +84, and I nearly double my spell power.

Is a raid leader gonna require radiant servant? Radiant servant adds +25 spell power, a healing aura, and a cure burst - on raids, a healer doesn't stand in the acid breath; they stand away from the mob where it's (relatively) safe.
The choice should be based on spell power; with a preference to radiant servant. (Mebbe we will start calling it raiding servant, eh? eh?)

Clerics are meant to do everything; kick butt and take names. I specialize in melee, you specialize in evocation; we both swap in our devo items and heal; we're both about the same, maybe you got a touch more mana, maybe I have a touch more AC.

My cleric is hella fun to play, man.

[Dingleburr]

My main issues with the divine classes right now are as follows:

1. No enhancements for force or fire damage, other than FvS PrE. A lot of the power for spell damage that was lost with the change to spell power was to be "made up for" by increased spell power from enhancements. This doesn't matter if you don't get any spell power enhancements.

5. No divine, or universal, augmentation. Arcane casters have access to many powerful items which boost their caster level while divine augmentation doesn't exist in any way shape or form.

Very much agree with these. Did I mention that my battlecleric wears a cloak of flame and occasionally tosses un-meta'd firestorms (yeah, that spell that everyone dismisses as useless). Lack of fire enhancements or augmentation is a significant downer for clerics.

[Nick_RC]

My main issues with the divine classes right now are as follows:

1. No enhancements for force or fire damage, other than FvS PrE. A lot of the power for spell damage that was lost with the change to spell power was to be "made up for" by increased spell power from enhancements. This doesn't matter if you don't get any spell power enhancements.

2. Very few items with consolidated spell power. An arcane caster can get away with just two weapons that provide all the spell power they need for all their damage types, a divine cannot, even making use of alchemicals, because they use three different non-elemental damage types. Arcanes also have challenge items with 90 spell power and superior lores on non-body slots, as well as a great consolidation item in the ring of elemental essence. The holy symbol of lolth is the only item in the game with multiple useful spell powers on it that is available to divines. Radiance lore items don't even drop except as prefixes on random armor, never on weapons, and never as a suffix with a good spellpower as the prefix like with all other damage types.

3. No DC enhancements in their main destiny. Wizard and Sorc all have DC enhancements, I think even Bard does as well. Nothing for Exalted Angel though. Not as big a deal with twists of fate, but with EA being so far away from the Dragonic and Magister, more casual players will not have access to them for quite some time.

4. No superior spell power potions for force or light damage, only greater. Superior spell power enhancement potions are available for all elemental damage types, as well as for healing, but not for any of the damage types that a divine casts.

5. No divine, or universal, augmentation. Arcane casters have access to many powerful items which boost their caster level while divine augmentation doesn't exist in any way shape or form.

6. Reduction in the spell power for heal, for the purposes of keeping its power equal to the power of a pre-U14 heal (although for most players it's actually lower) while no other spell or ability was kept capped at its pre-U14 output. A level 25 character with increased HP, damage output, and damage intake should not be restricted to the healing output of a level 20 character of significantly less power taking significantly less damage.

Yes. And there are a few more which I will add to later. Honestly the idiots that cant see this and the bigger picture regarding divines...Im just at a loss for words. Butting heads against the same 3-4 sycophants in EVERY thread regarding divines is old.

[JollySwagMan]

There are 'Superior Brilliance' potions: this is what the Mabar brilliance potions were changed into. (Prior to u14, they provided +100% effectiveness to Light spells, post update they provide +25 spellpower to Light and Alignment type spells).

I wish I had used them up, d'oh.

[bigolbear]

Ok heres my perspective.

I run a a lot of divines - and there all funky builds. Ill try and give the perspective from several relevant characters.

1.WROTHGAR - a battle clonk: - into his epic lvls now, my equipment incudes a +102 devotion helm, a potency 60 ring and specific caster sticks/quarterstaves for when im taking a stand back role.

Im finding that my aura is effective and is maintaining its validity through epic lvls, my burst however is not and i feel this should be addressed. my heals and mass heals seem a little lacking due purely to tanks hp raising so much - its like all of a sudden all mele are playng warforge without the heal amp. For what its worth my heals are infact more powerful than they were at lvl 20 but have not kept up in scale - and that i feel is the critical point.

Im ****ed about the implement bonus - as that is essentialy a bonus i will never get when fighting as I was intending to, I have to say i think the implement bonus was a **** poor decision - I said so at the time on the beta forums and I maintian that opinion.

I actualy think my greatest concern is the weakenss of healing magic and radiant bursts when used offensively vs undead - what took 1 burst before is now taking a mass heal or 2 and 2 bursts. when the sorc next to me is doing thousands of damage to the undead and the cleric is doing 400 somehting is very very wrong.

My blade barrier is ****week compared to how it was too...even if im using a staff with impulse 90 on it.

Regarding the ac changes - i get missed about half the time now, thats novel. I tried putitng on armour and a sheild to see how much more ac i could get but my ac actualy went down - all this talk of clonks being nerfed is probably limited to them max wisdom max dex only hit on a 20 types. The rest of us are actualy seeing some benefit, and i maintain that a monk splash on a cleric is a viable tradeoff of avoidance vs mitigation.

2. BELADORA - a half elf divine archer of the silver flame:
My cure spells are much better than they were - I always used them without metas to save mana and im happy with them. my heal spell is also stronger than before but thats because im still only lvl 14 and my potency hat is effecting it now and it wasnt before. My collection of clikies is hower **** near useless, so overall my offensive casting and my healing are weakened.

Im very concerned that when i get to high levels that I will have a lot of trouble fitting devotion, radiance and impulse items on my body slots - whereas previously i had planned to use a single superior potency 6.

Compared to other healers with the empower healing feat im feeling very lack luster, however due to the complexity of my training(ie build) im not sure ill be able to find room for this. previously it was not necessary now im seeing such a massive difference and i think i will have to find room for it.

In conclusion I feel like i have been nerfed very badly in the long run, that at high lvls i will not be effecitve - that some how i have lost the gods favour.

3. SILLFUR - a wf lorf of blades mele build.
fix healers freind then we can talk nice, till then im shelved - and angry as hell.

4.OXE - a dwarf bard warchanter that heals.
my cure spells are doing a bit better - ta for the buff. You broke my devotion ring tho and now i gota wait till i level up to wair it. my cure spells should be even betterer then. On the other side every ones taking like 30% more damage cos I cant displace them - only blur. Mobs seem to be doing more damage to every one too so that DR5 i give is worth less.
I recon its horses fer courses, and devs like gods give with one hand and take away with the other.

[Chette]

Very much agree with these. Did I mention that my battlecleric wears a cloak of flame and occasionally tosses un-meta'd firestorms (yeah, that spell that everyone dismisses as useless). Lack of fire enhancements or augmentation is a significant downer for clerics.

Awesome! I actually love firestorm, although I don't have room to slot it on my main divine caster.

My husband and I are currently working on a plan for a high charisma favored soul build that focuses on fire spells and uses the Draconic Incarnation destiny for the three AOE fire attacks there. Although it's limited in functionality, and certainly not as powerful as a high wisdom divine caster, it's going to be an amazingly fun B toon to run around on

There are 'Superior Brilliance' potions: this is what the Mabar brilliance potions were changed into. (Prior to u14, they provided +100% effectiveness to Light spells, post update they provide +25 spellpower to Light and Alignment type spells).

I wish I had used them up, d'oh.

Potions that you can only buy once a year and cost event turn-ins aren't really comparable to potions that are available for an insignificant amount of platinum from House of Wizardry in House Jorasco. There's no reason why superior inferno potions should be available from that vendor and not superior brilliance and superior impact.

[Thrudh]

My main issues with the divine classes right now are as follows:

1. No enhancements for force or fire damage, other than FvS PrE. A lot of the power for spell damage that was lost with the change to spell power was to be "made up for" by increased spell power from enhancements. This doesn't matter if you don't get any spell power enhancements.

2. Very few items with consolidated spell power. An arcane caster can get away with just two weapons that provide all the spell power they need for all their damage types, a divine cannot, even making use of alchemicals, because they use three different non-elemental damage types. Arcanes also have challenge items with 90 spell power and superior lores on non-body slots, as well as a great consolidation item in the ring of elemental essence. The holy symbol of lolth is the only item in the game with multiple useful spell powers on it that is available to divines. Radiance lore items don't even drop except as prefixes on random armor, never on weapons, and never as a suffix with a good spellpower as the prefix like with all other damage types.

3. No DC enhancements in their main destiny. Wizard and Sorc all have DC enhancements, I think even Bard does as well. Nothing for Exalted Angel though. Not as big a deal with twists of fate, but with EA being so far away from the Dragonic and Magister, more casual players will not have access to them for quite some time.

4. No superior spell power potions for force or light damage, only greater. Superior spell power enhancement potions are available for all elemental damage types, as well as for healing, but not for any of the damage types that a divine casts.

5. No divine, or universal, augmentation. Arcane casters have access to many powerful items which boost their caster level while divine augmentation doesn't exist in any way shape or form.

6. Reduction in the spell power for heal, for the purposes of keeping its power equal to the power of a pre-U14 heal (although for most players it's actually lower) while no other spell or ability was kept capped at its pre-U14 output. A level 25 character with increased HP, damage output, and damage intake should not be restricted to the healing output of a level 20 character of significantly less power taking significantly less damage.

Good post. Especially the part about how casters have a ton of wearable items that augment their spells. Divines do need more.

[Thrudh]

Yes. And there are a few more which I will add to later. Honestly the idiots that cant see this and the bigger picture regarding divines...Im just at a loss for words. Butting heads against the same 3-4 sycophants in EVERY thread regarding divines is old.

Oh I agree with all his points, and would like to seem them all addressed...

But melee divines ain't as gimp as you all make out.

[Nick_RC]

Very much agree with these. Did I mention that my battlecleric wears a cloak of flame and occasionally tosses un-meta'd firestorms (yeah, that spell that everyone dismisses as useless). Lack of fire enhancements or augmentation is a significant downer for clerics.

I chain firestorm and flame strike and have twisted energy burst:fire to chain all 3. It's fun. It's sad I have to use my biggest twist to get some serious AoE outside of BB. Draconic rocks.

[Charononus]

Is a raid leader gonna require radiant servant? Radiant servant adds +25 spell power, a healing aura, and a cure burst - on raids, a healer doesn't stand in the acid breath; they stand away from the mob where it's (relatively) safe.

Many fights, not all but many you can be close enough to the party to let them get ticks from your aura and burst, be out of the boss's cleave and cast mass heals when those aren't enough.
Velah, right there with the party
Tod, situational
Chrono, only fight I step back from is cad
dq2, stand in the back of the melee pack your aura and burst now heal everyone and you don't get hit
lob, yeah I'm standing by myself more than not.
shroud, yeah I'm standing back
citw, can't pay me to run it so lets not go there
vod, hox, ma - honestly these raids bore me so I don't run them often.