AM vs PM vs Savant

[Hitstorm]

Hello fellow players,

i am in the process of making a caster for end game play (at some point. I am currently PM, with PL's sorc, fvs and 2x wiz. I plan to TR a last time into another caster. I enjoy the playstyle of being able to CC, instakill, self-heal and do damage when it's appropriate. I enjoyed my time as a wf wiz, as a wf sorc and now a human pm for the second time(fvs not so much, since i mostly pug). I don't have MotU yet, and i didn't play it in beta.
So, im theorycrafting about my different choices (in no particular order):

1. H-elf sorc with pally dilly and scroll healing. I'd choose human in a heartbeat if i didnt think the extra saves mattered.
2. Human (or elf?) PM
3. WF AM
4. WF Sorc

Before MotU i was thinking of making a necro focused air savant (the fast movement and instakilling would be fun).
Now im not sure that would be such a good idea due to the spellpen requirements for instakilling. So my current
thinking is WF AM with necro focus and web sla. Spec him in ice or acid and force, and he would have something
for all situations. With good mana, insightful reflexes, toughness and quickened recon he would be very hard to kill.
Then again, PM would be just as nice, but with +1dc on all other schools. Except i hear that light damage is prevalent, that loads of mobs have deathward and so on.

So, to the questions (again, in no particular order):

1. How important are DC's in MotU? Could i get away with a WF air savant with necro focus on the toughest content? I understand this would require 3 Spellpen feats and loads of twists, but is it doable without adding another 2 fvs lives? I don't need to have no-fail instakill, a 75-80% chance would be enough. I think the reduced cooldowns and extra mana would make up for more saves (i could be wrong of course

2. How prevalent is light damage in MotU? I severly dislike being one-shot by divines who spam light spells.

3. How good is web SLA now? I would think there are a lot of mobs immune to it?

4. How good are the PM SLA's in MotU? I understand the AM Arcane bolts and whatnot are still pretty tame.

5. Are savants doing well, or are there tons of mobs immune to several elements (a bad game mechanic imo. Blanket immunities are bad, mkay?)

6. How important are saves in MotU? Im especially thinking of reflex, as a sorc would have very low ref saves compared to a wizard.

7. How viable is scroll healing for a h-elf sorc? I know from my wf sorc days that spamming quickened recons saved my shiny metal behind more times than i can remember (*cough* Enter the kobold on Elite *cough*. As a wiz with high reflex saves though, that wasn't so much of a problem).

8. What would you choose, and why?

I understand that there is an enhancement pass coming up "Soon", so i will level up and hold my decision until i see
what they come up with. In the mean time i would appreciate any and all input from experienced players.

Thank you for your time.

[azrael4h]

1. How important are DC's in MotU? Could i get away with a WF air savant with necro focus on the toughest content? I understand this would require 3 Spellpen feats and loads of twists, but is it doable without adding another 2 fvs lives? I don't need to have no-fail instakill, a 75-80% chance would be enough. I think the reduced cooldowns and extra mana would make up for more saves (i could be wrong of course

With a 39 Enchant DC I've been able to reliably hold/dance mobs on my Human Water Savant on Epic Hard. Drow are an issue on Hard due to their spell resistance.

2. How prevalent is light damage in MotU? I severly dislike being one-shot by divines who spam light spells.

You'll get Divine Punishment slapping you around quite regularly, and the occasional Searing Light (though staying mobile avoids most of those).

3. How good is web SLA now? I would think there are a lot of mobs immune to it?

Regular Drow and others I can't use dance/hold against, I use web. It's rock solid reliable, as always. Spiders, Driders, and the like are immune to it, but they aren't too much an issue.

5. Are savants doing well, or are there tons of mobs immune to several elements (a bad game mechanic imo. Blanket immunities are bad, mkay?)

Never be a one trick pony. I carry 3 damage types into battle. While this means I'm not doing as much damage as I could be, it also means when I hit a cold or electric immune critter, I'm not dead in the water. Disintegrate became auto-fail for me, with mobs always saving, so I ditched that. Most mobs are not immune to either cold or electric though, but electric is hurt by the proliferation of evasion mobs who, no matter your evo DC, will save 95% of the time. A lot either have inherent resistances, or cast them. Acid seems to work well on nearly everything I've fought thus far.

6. How important are saves in MotU? Im especially thinking of reflex, as a sorc would have very low ref saves compared to a wizard.

Saves are always important. Reflex especially, but Will more than ever with FoM no longer being worth sp to cast. Fort will be soon, when the devs nerf Death Ward in order to increase store cake sales. Draconic and Magister both have +6 Reflex save passives though, which will help.

7. How viable is scroll healing for a h-elf sorc? I know from my wf sorc days that spamming quickened recons saved my shiny metal behind more times than i can remember (*cough* Enter the kobold on Elite *cough*. As a wiz with high reflex saves though, that wasn't so much of a problem).

It's scroll healing; you have to run like hades, and hope your concentration check passes. But it'll keep you alive in a tight spot. I've ran EtK just fine on my Human sorc relying on scrolls, and employing the strategies of Brave Sir Robin. It's not a quickened Recon, and never will be, but if you use terrain and mobility to your advantage, you can usually reliably self-heal with scrolls.

8. What would you choose, and why?

Pikachu!

I've little experience with a Wizard; mine is only level 9. However, Sorc Savants came out fine in the expansion. Especially with Draconic. Energy Burst can one-shot many mobs. Daunting Roar is basically no-fail CC. And you don't have to be an Air Savant to get wings! I'm sure all of that will be nerfed into utter worthlessness, under the policy of "if it benefits players, nerf it!"

I went enchant focus Water Savant after the LR, and when I quit playing 10 different characters at once, I'll twist in some DCs off Magister as well. It has worked out well.

[DaSawks]

Human PM. Necro DC's in the 50s. Nuff said.

[Hitstorm]

"Human PM. Necro DC's in the 50s. Nuff said. "

Could you elaborate on this please? I do play PM, but i don't really see why a WF AM with necro focus and web SLA wouldn't be just as good or even better. Instead of PM SLA's, he would have more mana to nuke. Instead of dispellable aura healing (which i hear doesn't scale well) and the negative burst, he would have quickened recon. He would also have a rock solid web which would be almost free. More con should about even out the hps as well. He can also be healed normally, although not as well as a fleshie would of course.
It's easier for PM to use yugo pots, they get +1dc on all other schools (when in form). Humans get 1 more feat.
WF AM would have many of the same immunities, have 3-400 more mana. Doesn't have to spend 100 mana to go into form. Isn't vulnerable to light damage. It just doesn't seem like PM is the clear choice anymore (in theory). That's why i ask these questions

Thank you for your time.

[DarkForte]

"Human PM. Necro DC's in the 50s. Nuff said. "

Could you elaborate on this please? I do play PM, but i don't really see why a WF AM with necro focus and web SLA wouldn't be just as good or even better. Instead of PM SLA's, he would have more mana to nuke. Instead of dispellable aura healing (which i hear doesn't scale well) and the negative burst, he would have quickened recon. He would also have a rock solid web which would be almost free. More con should about even out the hps as well. He can also be healed normally, although not as well as a fleshie would of course.
It's easier for PM to use yugo pots, they get +1dc on all other schools (when in form). Humans get 1 more feat.
WF AM would have many of the same immunities, have 3-400 more mana. Doesn't have to spend 100 mana to go into form. Isn't vulnerable to light damage. It just doesn't seem like PM is the clear choice anymore (in theory). That's why i ask these questions

Thank you for your time.

I've done both, and I still prefer to be PM.

As long as you don't let it double-stack on you, light damage shouldn't be an issue with an epic mirror cloak. Also, you underestimate the extra mana you need to get your +DC and web SLA, it's around 100-something from what I recall. AM also has to spend a feat in SF: Conjuration (which is, for most other concerns, at best an average feat) to get free webs.

[Hitstorm]

Thanks for the feedback. I went and actually did the math (luckily i wasn't wearing any shoes at the time ), and
an AM with necro focus and web sla will only be 150 mana up on a PM (+400 for Archmage I-V, -250 for spell masteries and grease/web). So with 100 mana going into form, a PM will start with 250 mana less than an AM. Without having to take SF:Conjuration and with the human extra feat, a PM could then take improved mental toughness and epic mental toughness (if so inclined) to have more mana than AM while having 1 more DC on everything but necro/conj.

So, that leaves the question : Is it possible to make a sorc with necro focus (with enough PL's) to be effective in EE quests? It seems EH wouldn't be a problem for either AM, PM or any savant really.
I assume it would have to be human or h-elf for max charisma? Does anyone have any experience with a necro savant in the new content? The faster CD's, more mana and dps of a water savant coupled with the ability to instakill with 75-80% effifiency or so is very appealing to me. Maybe i'll just have to try it and see for myself? Could always TR again to a wiz if it doesn't hold water (ahem... )

[deahamlet]

EE sorc with necro? Nope. You don't have all the pls people were getting to do that before and the spell pen and Dcs will ruin it.
Go savant: wf acid/ice or human ice/acid - with draconic huge dmg numbers. I can use just heal scrolls but I move around and pretend I'm a sniper. Use ray spells and aoes and jump around like mad. Pwk for oh **** moments, wail useful enoughish for a small group as it neg levels them. But I would not rely on that on elite.
Or elf pm, on your pls, you'll have wonderful spell pen and sometimes you'll have to spam burst a bit a jump around but I have yet to be one shotted.

My pm slas are purple in the new content, very nice. Always kill divines first from afar to avoid them casting mass dw. Niac on my sorc works cause I took conjuration and my webs are insane.

[HastyPudding]

With the current end-game being the MoTU, Pale Masters make poor end-game characters. The instant kills are nice if you have good DC's and spell pen, but there's just too much in the way of light damage being thrown about and the mobs can be brutal on higher difficulties, and PMs can only rely on their neg energy damage to heal themselves, while FVS and most clerics don't carry Harm, and a WF AM has much better self-healing. 2 stacks of divine punishment and you're dead, 1 if you can't heal fast enough.

Since you don't have the expansion, I'd say go with what you want; both PM and AM are entirely viable. Once you get the expansion, however, I'd suggest an AM with the traditional ench/necro focus, or even necro/ench focus if you wanted. A PM can get by with a little effort and clever positioning, but an AM doesn't have the almost constant threat of being blasted by light spells.

Funny thing about Sorcerers is you don't have to pick a savant if you don't want to. I've seen several people in-game that never picked one and are a generalist. Sure, one of their elements doesn't pack a super punch, but they're not gimped in an element, either. This leaves room for adaptability and versatility. Traditional sorcerers got by perfectly fine before the savant PrE arrived.

[Havok.cry]

Human PM, once epic, go necro magister with twists in shadowdancer for extra light protection.

[DarkForte]

Necro savant seems like a bad idea. You'll inevitably have low-ish DCs, and fort is the hardest save to debuff. I've been pondering making an enchanter sorcerer and twisting spell pen/DCs myself.

[Hitstorm]

"Necro savant seems like a bad idea. You'll inevitably have low-ish DCs, and fort is the hardest save to debuff. I've been pondering making an enchanter sorcerer and twisting spell pen/DCs myself."

So, a water savant with enchantment focus would be viable in EE? It was mentioned that 50+ necro DC's are needed, what is the equivalent benchmark for enchantment? What would be the required spell pen?
If we assume sf:ench, gsf:ench, spellpen, gspellpen and espellpen would be needed, that leaves a human with 5 feats for Max+emp+heighten+ pl wizard + sf:evoc. So no toughness, or have to drop either gsf:ench or espellpen (of which gsf:ench seems the better choice since pl wiz gives +1 DC and espellpen is +4).

Since you have been pondering it, have you looked at what feats and twists you would need and what the final DC's/Spellpen would be?

[HastyPudding]

"Necro savant seems like a bad idea. You'll inevitably have low-ish DCs, and fort is the hardest save to debuff. I've been pondering making an enchanter sorcerer and twisting spell pen/DCs myself."

So, a water savant with enchantment focus would be viable in EE? It was mentioned that 50+ necro DC's are needed, what is the equivalent benchmark for enchantment? What would be the required spell pen?
If we assume sf:ench, gsf:ench, spellpen, gspellpen and espellpen would be needed, that leaves a human with 5 feats for Max+emp+heighten+ pl wizard + sf:evoc. So no toughness, or have to drop either gsf:ench or espellpen (of which gsf:ench seems the better choice since pl wiz gives +1 DC and espellpen is +4).

Since you have been pondering it, have you looked at what feats and twists you would need and what the final DC's/Spellpen would be?

50+ DC's are the benchmark for epic elites. You won't be running those nonstop. Traditional 41-46 DC's are fine for epic normal and epic hard, seeing as the original epics were comparable to being slightly harder than epic hard, but nowhere near epic elite. Spell Penetration is another thing entirely, seeing as the current-end game content in the expansion is filled with drow, which have very high spell resistance. The only epic elite in eberron you need to worry about with spell penetration is VoN3, and even then that quest can a serious pain in the butt.


All of this talk about enchantment-necromancy-focused sorcerers is moot, however, in that the mysterious 3rd sorcerer PrE has yet to be determined. There was talk that, seeing as all classes will have 4 trees once the enhancement update eventually comes out (1 racial, and 1 for each PrE), the sorcerer savant will be combined into one tree, making you pick an element that suits you. We can be almost certain that the other sorcerer PrE is Acolyte of the Skin, which is more in line with demonic/evil outsider abilities and traits. That leaves the last PrE, which is anybody's guess. My guess is that it will be focused on DC's (one of the sorcerer's 'paths' is Voice of Power, so maybe a Truenamer?). This is all speculation, however.

Currently, however, sorcerers can reach a decent enchantment DC for epic hard, but I wouldn't trust a sorcerer for epic elite crowd control unless they had a lot of past lives (such as at least 1 bard, 3 wiz, 3 fvs, etc).

[DarkForte]

"Necro savant seems like a bad idea. You'll inevitably have low-ish DCs, and fort is the hardest save to debuff. I've been pondering making an enchanter sorcerer and twisting spell pen/DCs myself."

So, a water savant with enchantment focus would be viable in EE? It was mentioned that 50+ necro DC's are needed, what is the equivalent benchmark for enchantment? What would be the required spell pen?
If we assume sf:ench, gsf:ench, spellpen, gspellpen and espellpen would be needed, that leaves a human with 5 feats for Max+emp+heighten+ pl wizard + sf:evoc. So no toughness, or have to drop either gsf:ench or espellpen (of which gsf:ench seems the better choice since pl wiz gives +1 DC and espellpen is +4).

Since you have been pondering it, have you looked at what feats and twists you would need and what the final DC's/Spellpen would be?

I like the enchanter sorc idea due to two factors:

1. You can put a -6 debuff to will on enemies through crushing despair + hypnotism;
2. It works on orange-names;
3. Mass hold has great synergy with AOE nukes;
4. It doesn't make your melee friends feel like a dead weight (optional).

Your feat layout is pretty much the same as mine, except I don't have a wizard past life, so GSF enchantment is in there.

Spell pen would be equal to that of a pure enchantment wizard. DC numbers vary too much depending on gear, so I'll just post my comparisons (haven't put much thought to the numbers, feel free to correct me if needed):

Against PM with both feats: Equal or better DCs (Wizard gets +1 from lich, +1 from capstone, +1 from having both GSF:E and PL: wizard), your enchantment sorc would have to twist +3 enchantment DCs from magister (while the necromancer would have +3 to necromancy instead).

Against enchantment AM: DC gap is 5 or 6 (Wizard gets the enchantment bonus from magister too, so +1 from lich, +1 capstone, +1 from having both feats, +1 from eSF: Enchantment, +2 from AM school specialization, while the sorc would have +1 cha from human enhancements). This case is a bit harsher. I do not believe, however, that there are many of these running around.

tl;dr: if you'd let a necro-focused PM do CC for you, your sorc will do the job.

[deahamlet]

I like the enchanter sorc idea due to two factors:

1. You can put a -6 debuff to will on enemies through crushing despair + hypnotism;
2. It works on orange-names;
3. Mass hold has great synergy with AOE nukes;
4. It doesn't make your melee friends feel like a dead weight (optional).

Your feat layout is pretty much the same as mine, except I don't have a wizard past life, so GSF enchantment is in there.

Spell pen would be equal to that of a pure enchantment wizard. DC numbers vary too much depending on gear, so I'll just post my comparisons (haven't put much thought to the numbers, feel free to correct me if needed):

Against PM with both feats: Equal or better DCs (Wizard gets +1 from lich, +1 from capstone, +1 from having both GSF:E and PL: wizard), your enchantment sorc would have to twist +3 enchantment DCs from magister (while the necromancer would have +3 to necromancy instead).

Against enchantment AM: DC gap is 5 or 6 (Wizard gets the enchantment bonus from magister too, so +1 from lich, +1 capstone, +1 from having both feats, +1 from eSF: Enchantment, +2 from AM schoSol specialization, while the sorc would have +1 cha from human enhancements). This case is a bit harsher. I do not believe, however, that there are many of these running around.

tl;dr: if you'd let a necro-focused PM do CC for you, your sorc will do the job.

If you know you are going to be running epic elites and CCing on your pm, just reset to take enchantment instead of necro for a while. No biggie.

[DarkForte]

If you know you are going to be running epic elites and CCing on your pm, just reset to take enchantment instead of necro for a while. No biggie.

Last time I checked, swapping a whole lvl 5 tree was about 100kpp (did they change that?). Spending 200kpp every time I want to do EE would break my bank real fast.

[Kinerd]

The most important thing in making a sturdy character is self-healing. Half-elf & scrolls is just not as good as warforged & reconstruct or pale master & all their stuff. I very strongly urge you to try it on a first life before you consign yourself to a 4 mil XP slog. (I mildly urge you not to try it at all and just stick with what you know is awesome.)

3. How good is web SLA now? I would think there are a lot of mobs immune to it?

There is a significant minority immune to it: fire creatures, ghosts, (most) spiders. However, these fields very much comprise a minority. You can go whole quests without seeing anything immune to it, and I can't think of any quests where literally everything is immune to it.

6. How important are saves in MotU? Im especially thinking of reflex, as a sorc would have very low ref saves compared to a wizard.

It will not break your character to have a lower Reflex save, because you can still gear it to a pretty decent one. With that said, it's really nice to have a high one.

In the end, any self-healing arcane is very strong. While a sorcerer is better at direct damage than a wizard and a wizard is better at spell pen / DC stuff, they are both still very strong in their relatively weak category (especially with your past lives to buttress the sorcerer's spell pen). If you are completely flummoxed, flip a coin, and if it comes up half-elf sorc throw the coin in the garbage.

Funny thing about Sorcerers is you don't have to pick a savant if you don't want to. I've seen several people in-game that never picked one and are a generalist. Sure, one of their elements doesn't pack a super punch, but they're not gimped in an element, either. This leaves room for adaptability and versatility. Traditional sorcerers got by perfectly fine before the savant PrE arrived.

I think this is not very good advice. The increase to caster levels and gimmicky tricks are pretty good but the SLAs are awesome. Look at Cold Savant: you lose 9 Fire levels, but Wall of Fire is max 15 and Scorching Ray is max 11. 25 - 9 is greater than both of those. For losing nothing but the admitted AP cost in the crit enhancements you get Heightened Maximized Empowered Frost Lance for 6 SP, and as a Fort save you are guaranteed to do damage outside of what, Frostmarrow skeletons? That one kind of Quori ghost? Plus you get a bonus to Swim skill!!!!!!!11

I think not taking any savant at all is being overly conservative.

[DaSawks]

Hello fellow players,

i am in the process of making a caster for end game play (at some point. I am currently PM, with PL's sorc, fvs and 2x wiz. I plan to TR a last time into another caster. I enjoy the playstyle of being able to CC, instakill, self-heal and do damage when it's appropriate. I enjoyed my time as a wf wiz, as a wf sorc and now a human pm for the second time(fvs not so much, since i mostly pug). I don't have MotU yet, and i didn't play it in beta.
So, im theorycrafting about my different choices (in no particular order):

1. H-elf sorc with pally dilly and scroll healing. I'd choose human in a heartbeat if i didnt think the extra saves mattered.
2. Human (or elf?) PM
3. WF AM
4. WF Sorc

Before MotU i was thinking of making a necro focused air savant (the fast movement and instakilling would be fun).
Now im not sure that would be such a good idea due to the spellpen requirements for instakilling. So my current
thinking is WF AM with necro focus and web sla. Spec him in ice or acid and force, and he would have something
for all situations. With good mana, insightful reflexes, toughness and quickened recon he would be very hard to kill.
Then again, PM would be just as nice, but with +1dc on all other schools. Except i hear that light damage is prevalent, that loads of mobs have deathward and so on.

So, to the questions (again, in no particular order):

1. How important are DC's in MotU? Could i get away with a WF air savant with necro focus on the toughest content? I understand this would require 3 Spellpen feats and loads of twists, but is it doable without adding another 2 fvs lives? I don't need to have no-fail instakill, a 75-80% chance would be enough. I think the reduced cooldowns and extra mana would make up for more saves (i could be wrong of course
DC's are everything in End game. Like it or not a Human PM will have higher DC's in the school that rules all others. Necromancy.


2. How prevalent is light damage in MotU? I severly dislike being one-shot by divines who spam light spells.
I have been triple DOT'ed with Divine Punishment and can easily survive. I have a Epic Mirror Cloak that gives 30 light resistance. I also have over 500 hp. I would not even try endgame with less.


3. How good is web SLA now? I would think there are a lot of mobs immune to it?
Web is awesome if you need to CC. Lots of mobs that have or can cast Death Ward can be Web'd which will give your DOTS time to do there work.


4. How good are the PM SLA's in MotU? I understand the AM Arcane bolts and whatnot are still pretty tame.
If you want to DPS mobs then the best way it to Bolt/Blast in conjunction with DOTS and Wall of Fire and/or Acid Fog. I HIGHLY recommend finding a one handed weapon with both 96/102 spell power to negative AND 12% to critical chance.

5. Are savants doing well, or are there tons of mobs immune to several elements (a bad game mechanic imo. Blanket immunities are bad, mkay?)
You will find situations were mobs, mostly orange and red names are immune to some type of element. This will also be true for Necro spells (Death Ward). Always have a back up plan. Almost all orange names can be killed with Trap The Soul. This spell is devastating when applied properly (after an Energy Drain spell and Enervation scroll)


6. How important are saves in MotU? Im especially thinking of reflex, as a sorc would have very low ref saves compared to a wizard.
Saves are very important. With Magister active my Wizard can hit 54 Reflex. I can walk through trap on EE.


7. How viable is scroll healing for a h-elf sorc? I know from my wf sorc days that spamming quickened recons saved my shiny metal behind more times than i can remember (*cough* Enter the kobold on Elite *cough*. As a wiz with high reflex saves though, that wasn't so much of a problem).
This is very viable. Keep in mind that you will be subject to Concentration failures.


8. What would you choose, and why?
Human PM. Best DC's, Spell Pen, Saves and Hit Points.


I understand that there is an enhancement pass coming up "Soon", so i will level up and hold my decision until i see
what they come up with. In the mean time i would appreciate any and all input from experienced players.

Thank you for your time.

Answers in Red.

[RabidApathy]

2. How prevalent is light damage in MotU? I severly dislike being one-shot by divines who spam light spells.
I have been triple DOT'ed with Divine Punishment and can easily survive. I have a Epic Mirror Cloak that gives 30 light resistance. I also have over 500 hp. I would not even try endgame with less.

Maybe on hard, but DP on elite makes you cower in a corner and spam negative energy burst until it's gone. A single stack was doing ~150 light damage a tick without any resistance item. At triple stack, even with epic mirror cloak, it would be doing ~420 damage a tick to a PM.

That said, only a few enemies in the new pack like to cast it. Notably, the priestesses.

[ckorik]

Maybe on hard, but DP on elite makes you cower in a corner and spam negative energy burst until it's gone. A single stack was doing ~150 light damage a tick without any resistance item. At triple stack, even with epic mirror cloak, it would be doing ~420 damage a tick to a PM.

That said, only a few enemies in the new pack like to cast it. Notably, the priestesses.

You can always take off the undead form - it's not a requirement for a PM to be undead all the time

[RabidApathy]

You can always take off the undead form - it's not a requirement for a PM to be undead all the time

Very true. It wastes 100 sp, but it's sometimes the best option (though you do need to alert your divine in a timely manner).

I've taken to doing this very thing when entering the village where Unquiet Graves is located. My first trip there I was met by an Astral Panther and 8 will-o-wisps. Suffice to say that it made an impression.