Bye Bye Dark Monks

[Schmackdown]

An Incorporal Item will not stack with a blur item. But monk shadowfade will stack with a blur item.

Changed in Update 14.

[whereispowderedsilve]

An Incorporal Item will not stack with a blur item. But monk shadowfade will stack with a blur item.




Pro-Tip: The dark finisher's that de-buff's are curses. If a mob can be cursed, it can be hit by the finisher regardless of the color.

Where can I find info on which red/purple named mobs can be cursed?

Is this info available on the wiki or DDO Compendium or? Super thanks in advance! :P! ! Cheers! xD!

Harry/Laliat/Stormreaver/Velah etc? Greatly appreciated! !

[Taimasan]

Changed in Update 14.

Ah did not see this, regardless of this fact, as far as we know incorporeality maxes at %10 on items. The Dark Monk ability shadowfade gives %25, http://ddowiki.com/page/Ninja_Spy_enhancements. In live, I find a %10 versus %25 chance makes a significant and substantial difference in incoming damage. And as we already know. Shadowfade stacks with blur. Kinda making the fuss about items and such a bit moot.

[rimble]

Not surprised it's easy to consider a Tier III fully functioning PrE to a Tier II half-functioning one (talking about the useless Water Strider stuff here) a little better off.

Regardless, I think you're selling Dark Monk short.

Touch of Death can hit up to 4 times, 625 x 4 is fun to see, though of course that's the exception, not the rule.

Fists of Darkness causes Shaken, so that's -2 Attack and Saves in my favor. 1d50 too, which can also multi-strike.

Touch of Despair halves the healing things receive, increases Touch of Death and Fists of Darkness damage by 25%, and reduces fortification. The half healing thing is AWESOME for self-healing mobs.

For tough fights where I can get Improved Sunder stacked it's inevitable that Touch of Death, Fists of Darkness, Touch of Despair, and everything else that focuses on Fortitude save reliably get applied.

25% Incorporeality, of course...though you can get 10% yourself via equipment if you want.

The Sneaking bonuses are nice, I've been sneaking past TONS of Epic content and I appreciate not moving slow as a snail.

And of course the Sneak Attack, which is awesome on a Stunner, although we're probably missing another 3d6 at least from Tier III. Looking forward to that. Heck, I even get to benefit from that on bosses after I stick them with Unbalancing Strike.

[jadedfate]

• Dark monks have a kewl martial arts name - Ninja. Give me a break! Shintao!?! What's a Shintao? I mean face it, if light monks had the name Ninja, they'd be really pro! I'd take Kung Fu Panda over Shintao!

.

Hate to burst your bubble but when it comes to Monks, Shintao, which is a nod to Shinto, is more in keeping with the flavor than Ninja is. Shinto Monks practice forms of Kung Fu.

[sephiroth1084]

Oh, and we have metal-type wraps dropping in random loot now, so the value of Shintao there has dropped somewhat.

[whomhead]

While I think the title of the thread is a bit overstated (it is simply ridiculous to think that there's no reason to run a dark monk), I do agree that GoF is better on a light monk than dark, if only slightly. Of course I am fairly certain that a dark monk would be much better in Fury of the Wild, at least that's my plan.

Will also be interesting to see how the relative light VS dark power will change with the supposed upcoming enhancement revamp. I am especially interested in seeing the third tier of ninja spy and whatever henshin mystic ends up being.

[OzmarDDO]

I had a nagging desire to go back to a Dark Monk. Grandmaster of Flowers changed that.

Two words.

Ooze. Puppet.

You're welcome!

-Ozmar the Helpful

[SensaiRyu]

If Dark gave you nothing at all save the 25% Incorp, it would still be very much viable.

And the fact that it appears to now stack with displacement is nice too. Viable? Yep. Compelling? To some it may be.

Pro-Tip: The dark finisher's that de-buff's are curses. If a mob can be cursed, it can be hit by the finisher regardless of the color.

When a mob can be cursed all at once, let me know.
I used curses a lot when I ran dark. I can count the number of times I've seen another dark monk using curses on one hand.

And now, with GoF, would I go around wasting ki to curse a mob one by one? You're kidding, right?

Oh, and we have metal-type wraps dropping in random loot now, so the value of Shintao there has dropped somewhat.

Correct. I see many metal types with something useless to a monk... like vertigo. I could spend time crafting I guess.

Or, I can bypass all DR (except Stormreaver) with Graves and each of several +10 stunning wraps I have (and I have several) as well as my situational/boss ones.

And what you failed to provide for in your comparison of Touch of Death to the new GMoF abilities is that ToD can proc on TWF and doublestrikes, so it can do as much as 750 on one hit, but it also benefits from making an enemy susceptible to negative energy...hmm...who do we know of that can do that? Oh yeah! Dark Monks!

The argument should be obvious - Yes, ToD can do considerable dmg. I've seen it hit 5 times during my first life and 4 times very often. But it's To One Foe. Drifting does ~400 dmg to a mob or one foe - 15 seconds and 25ki. Orchid for 12 seconds and 20ki. Drop ToD down to 25ki and I'll yield. Two EiN points for 5 less ki? I'm starving for ki as it is.

With ship buffs:
EiN DC - 59 (Will, Fort)
Drifting Lotus DC - 49 (Reflex). And ~400 dmg to each of the mob. Pics are on my sig's page.
Others don't have DCs in their descriptions but the formulas are there.

DL DC 49 <> 10base + 23monk +7half wis mod.
DL DC 49 = 10base +23monk +16half wis.
Description states wis mod, not wis.

Stunning Fist has a 6 second cooldown and we can get absurdly high DCs. Another stun is totally surplus to requirements.

Stun one, beat it for 6 seconds, get an EiN point. Rinse Repeat. The stunned become unstunned after 6 seconds. At least for me it does. How about you? Stun adds to EiN points. A stunned red name hits just as much as a dead one. But the stunned one is great for ki gen.


Some sarcasm in the original post if you failed ur sarcasm save... But...
Limited metal bypassing, attacks that work on one mob at a time, incorp, then I take GoF for area attacks that do ToD-like dmg but across several foes and for less ki and for EiN priming.

If I went back to dark monk I would most likely use GoF attacks in lieu of ToD. Except on the boss.

My point is that GoF moves compete significantly with ToD on a dark monk build. 50 ki, 0 EiN points vs 25 ki 1 EiN point and similar dmg albeit against a mob. I'm not seeing anywhere near a game changing amount of trash evades people allude to against my flower attacks to change my mind. Relegating ToD to a specialty attack most useful during the last 3 mins of the quest.

[Potta]

My point is that GoF moves compete significantly with ToD on a dark monk build. 50 ki, 0 EiN points vs 25 ki 1 EiN point and similar dmg albeit against a mob. I'm not seeing anywhere near a game changing amount of trash evades people allude to against my flower attacks to change my mind. Relegating ToD to a specialty attack most useful during the last 3 mins of the quest.

If you still belive this, then I'm done with you. I've told you time and time again that the GMoF abilities do not compete with ToD. They either do to little damage, or are too easily avoided, or are useful, but in a totally different way in which you'd use ToD. It's completely your privilege to be horrifically wrong and utilize a playstyle that actually decreases your DPS. You can even maintain your delusion that it's better. I can certainly do nothing about that. But when you spout this nonsense I will continue to debunk it. Not for you, you're clearly intractable to reason. But for new monk players who might not know better yet.

[rimble]

And the fact that it appears to now stack with displacement is nice too. Viable? Yep. Compelling? To some it may be.

Always has, what a strange thing to say.

Correct. I see many metal types with something useless to a monk... like vertigo. I could spend time crafting I guess.

Wouldn't hurt, it's nice. Character features that fill in gear weaknesses are nice, until you get that gear, then they're irrelevant.

Or, I can bypass all DR (except Stormreaver) with Graves and each of several +10 stunning wraps I have (and I have several) as well as my situational/boss ones.

Get Stunning +10 on a ring now. Swap it to something else on bosses...Vertigo if you want to try and work Unbalancing Strike, maybe Maiming otherwise.

My point is that GoF moves compete significantly with ToD on a dark monk build. 50 ki, 0 EiN points

This is incorrect, ToD increases EiN counter.

I understand you're going by the description, but that just highlights how you're trying to imagine Dark and GMoF plays, rather than actually having played it. You're not armchair quarterbacking well.

[Taimasan]

When a mob can be cursed all at once, let me know.
I used curses a lot when I ran dark. I can count the number of times I've seen another dark monk using curses on one hand.

And now, with GoF, would I go around wasting ki to curse a mob one by one? You're kidding, right?

Don't know where this is coming from bro. Someone asked how do you know when a mob can be cursed. I answered. At no time did I imply that you need to curse a mob one by one, nor do I think anyone else did.

[Sunarch_Kunari]

Where can I find info on which red/purple named mobs can be cursed?

Is this info available on the wiki or DDO Compendium or? Super thanks in advance! :P! ! Cheers! xD!

Harry/Laliat/Stormreaver/Velah etc? Greatly appreciated! !

Well, you could just run around with improved cursespewing wraps and see which ones fail their save hehe.

[whereispowderedsilve]

Well, you could just run around with improved cursespewing wraps and see which ones fail their save hehe.

Lolz I *could* do that I suppose! >><<!

Would maybe make for a funny youtube clip!! xD! :P! !

[SensaiRyu]

This is incorrect, ToD increases EiN counter.

I understand you're going by the description, but that just highlights how you're trying to imagine Dark and GMoF plays, rather than actually having played it. You're not armchair quarterbacking well.

And description is all I have. I haven't run a dark monk since before U9. Perhaps I should be less trusting of what I'm reading.

If you still belive this, then I'm done with you. I've told you time and time again that the GMoF abilities do not compete with ToD. They either do to little damage, or are too easily avoided, or are useful, but in a totally different way in which you'd use ToD. It's completely your privilege to be horrifically wrong and utilize a playstyle that actually decreases your DPS. You can even maintain your delusion that it's better. I can certainly do nothing about that. But when you spout this nonsense I will continue to debunk it. Not for you, you're clearly intractable to reason. But for new monk players who might not know better yet.

Nice

I took a stance. You and others have been great poking holes in some of my mistakes.

Ye, I've been listening. I'm just not seeing evidence of the 'too easily avoided'. It's not that I'm not listening or intractable to reason. If I'm not seeing the too easily avoided and too little damage, that you're seeing (which I've restated several times) then I'll discount your statement. To me, watching ten 400s pop up across a mob isn't too little damage. When I see 5 reflexes and 170 dmg pop up again (as they're rare) I'll try to snap it.

On the last boss? Perhaps. EChrono comes to mind.

Evidently, there's a reason I'm not seeing what you're seeing: The difficulty of quests we run, our build differences?

I run Eveningstar EH mostly; EE sometimes. I don't consider my build all that great. I'm lvl 23.

What do you mean by "totally different way in which you'd use ToD"? How do you use ToD and GoF in a quest to get the best DPS out of them?

And, as always, thanks (all of you) for debunking any wrong assertions. Incorrectness on my part is unintentional.

[sandypaws]

One of the perks of ToD, aside from the fact that it can double or triple-proc, is that it doesn't seem to interrupt the attack animation. GMOF abilities do. I find I very rarely use the single-target GMoF ability now, unless I'm fighting annoying critters like elementals, undead and constructs.

Haven't gotten to the multi-target ones yet on my monk, but from experimenting on my cleric it seems like they have a significant wind-up time, again detracting from your attack chain. This is not to say they aren't awesome. They are. But if you want something down and down fast, stun -> ToD is a nice way to do it.

Edit: Also, keep in mind that your saves on the GMoF abilities, as they stand on the tooltip, look to be a bit borked. They're taking full wisdom mod, instead of half. Haven't checked the actual practical DC. If they're -actually- borked, then improved sunder does tilt things even further in the direction of an effective ToD.

[Wylddozer]

Truthfully, I find that Drifting Lotus does compete with ToD. Drifting Lotus' CC and damage(am I the only one seeing it for 450+ everytime????) far outweigh ToD at 2+ mobs. However, I've never had to choose between the 2, I've always had the ki to use them both whenever I wanted to.

[Anthios888]

I see. Just like how monks became worthless when Touch of Death was given a save for half.

This thread is hilarious! Good read! Because who wants 3d6 sneak damage, -save and fortification debuffs, right? Blur wands are way too high end to carry in your pack, right?

[shareplz]

Drifting lotus, Orchid Blossam, and Lily petal all cause you to lose about 3 attacks (doubled to six by TWF)... enough time for me to deal 500+ damage to enemies anyway, 750+ if they are stunned. Touch of death can be used during an attack and works with the double strike of TWF.

So...
Cast drifting lotus
deal 400 damage with drifting lotus
adds up to about 600 stunned, 400 normal, 200 if they make a reflex save, 0 if they evade.

or...
hit with Touch of death
deal 500 damage + a hit
deal 500 damage + a hit
hit
hit
hit
hit
adds up to about 2250 stunned, 1500 normal, 1000 if they make a fort save, AND THEY CAN'T EVADE IT!

[Meat-Head]

I still like dark. But I see both as being legit.

Also, no one has mentioned that Ninja only goes to t2 atm. I'm assuming it'll add more sneak dice at least at t3.