Dropping Empower

[Faent]

My WF Archmage is now considering dropping Empower for Spell Penetration. (I could also drop Toughness for it, but I'd prefer to keep Toughness, I think. I like seeing nice high HP numbers, even if they aren't absolutely necessary.) No doubt, due to the stupid changes to Fred, this will require multiple feat swaps. But whatever. The Spell Penetration is desired for the Magister Piercing Spellcraft. Can someone give me a good reason NOT to drop Empower in the current endgame?

[Fefnir_2011]

Do it. Empower over Spell Pen, are you kidding? What are you, a namby-pamby sorc?

I dropped Empower even before the update. Rolling with only Maximize means your blue bar lasts longer. The only downside is smaller numbers. But if you wanted big numbers for the sake of seeing big numbers, you'd be playing a sorc or a barbarian.

EDIT: Should clarify what I mean by smaller numbers. Your individual damage ticks will be smaller, of course. But because your blue bar lasts so much longer, you do more damage for less mana.

[psi0nix]

Curious about this myself, currently I use maximise / empower / extend / heighten - all on all the time (obviously extend only affects buff spells).

Would spell pen actually be worth it for a wiz ? (I was of the belief that spell pen other than the enhancement line was not worth it and a waste on a wizard - maybe take a spell focus in evocation or conjuration).

What sort of drop in "numbers" could we roughly expect from losing maximise or empower (which ones better ? ) IF it's up to %50 then no way I'd remove it.

I'd say toughness is a "must have", more HP always better than not, you might be 20Hp short when that trap hits you for 280. Sometimes it can be the difference between getting a burst away or just dying. (It is personal choice there mostly, but yeah for me toughness is a must but I take it at character build)

I'd advise maybe using your enhancement lines to pick up some spell pen, but use the feat for a boost to a school of magic, as a wizard your spell pen should be fairly high anyway (not that an extra +1 or so would hurt).

[Faent]

Do it. Empower over Spell Pen, are you kidding? What are you, a namby-pamby sorc? I dropped Empower even before the update.

Well... There's one reason I'm a bit reticent to drop Empower. I frequently employ the following tactic, and I especially employ it after the wail-nerf. Round up a ton of mobs. Hit them with a Hypno SLA. Hit them with a Mass Hold. And then drop a Maximixed/Empowered Acid Rain/Ice Storm on them. It works very well. It's not just the damage from Empower I'd lose, it's the damage from Empower that's amped by the Mass Hold that I'd lose. I'm not sure how I feel about this. I suppose I could just try it and find out how I feel about it, but it will require multiple feat swaps to test it.

My Spell Pen in Epic Hard content is more than enough without any Spell Penetration Feats. The reason I want the Spell Penetration Feat now is to pick up Piercing Spellcraft for another +3. I'm trying to move to Epic Elite reasonable (though not ideal) Spell Penetration without taking any Spell Penetration feats.

[Faent]

Curious about this myself, currently I use maximise / empower / extend / heighten - all on all the time (obviously extend only affects buff spells).

You should already be dropping Extend. It's not worth it.

Would spell pen actually be worth it for a wiz ? (I was of the belief that spell pen other than the enhancement line was not worth it and a waste on a wizard - maybe take a spell focus in evocation or conjuration).

Whether or not it's worth it on a wizard depends upon how many past lives you have stacked. If you don't have lots of Spell Penetration from past lives, you absolutely must take Spell Penetration Feats on a wizard. If your Spell Penetration is 31/32 before Epic Destinies and without Spell Penetration Feats, you don't need the Feats in content up through Epic Hard. If your Spell Penetration is a miserable sub-30 something, you really need to pick up these feats or do something else about it. Post your Spell Pen calculation/breakdown.

I'd say toughness is a "must have", more HP always better than not, you might be 20Hp short when that trap hits you for 280. Sometimes it can be the difference between getting a burst away or just dying. (It is personal choice there mostly, but yeah for me toughness is a must but I take it at character build).

Toughness has never been a must-have on a WF wizard. Epic Elite content probably makes it a must have now. I have also appreciated it while learning the Epic Hard content, but it's not necessary there either. It's sometimes helpful, however. I'd be running around with 550+ HP if I dropped Toughness. That's perfectly adequate for all Epic Hard content, if not ideal.

[psi0nix]

You should already be dropping Extend. It's not worth it.

(edited what I had here didn't make sense - ) Yeah extend for the death aura. )

Whether or not it's worth it on a wizard depends upon how many past lives you have stacked.
Currently I have 2 sorc past lives and this is my 1st wizard life : currently @ lvl 20 + 3 Epic lvls and the magister epic destiny intelligence maxed out I have a 46 Intelligence, that was starting with an 18 intelligence, I have had a +3 tome as well.

If you don't have lots of Spell Penetration from past lives, you absolutely must take Spell Penetration Feats on a wizard.
To be honest I never have taken Spell Pen feats, as neither sorc or wiz (i have a couple other 1st life wiz's), and have not yet to date had any issues with landing the spells (FoD, Wail) and other necro based spells, I do take spell focus necromancy (required for PM), and greater necromancy focus, so I guess that helps with the DC's. I have notice other wizards in Epics have a higher success rate than me with FoD / instakill type spells, so that could be it.

If your Spell Penetration is 31/32 before Epic Destinies and without Spell Penetration Feats, you don't need the Feats in content up through Epic Hard. If your Spell Penetration is a miserable sub-30 something, you really need to pick up these feats or do something else about it. Post your Spell Pen calculation/breakdown.

as you may tell from the rest of this, I'm not that fantastic with the mathematical side of all this (ironically) mostly to do with effort and state of mind during gameplay hours . But with everything I have including buffs I have a 48 DC on FoD (3rd Life (sorc,sorc,wiz(WF PM))): lvl23-ED(magister)


Toughness has never been a must-have on a WF wizard. Epic Elite content probably makes it a must have now. I have also appreciated it while learning the Epic Hard content, but it's not necessary there either. It's sometimes helpful, however. I'd be running around with 550+ HP if I dropped Toughness. That's perfectly adequate for all Epic Hard content, if not ideal.

I can't argue with this really, I do like to have toughness, but as advice it's solid from what I know. I just find that when I'm in a bad spot, surrounded by mobs and getting beat on, the conOps don't keep up and that last few HP on the bar can be the difference between getting that necrotic burst out that will get you back in the game, which is why I always take it without even really thinking about the addup. With buffs +items (everything) I have 618hp.

In red
+

[Faent]

In red

Sorry, you're a Pale Master. Keep Extend. You need it for your Aura.

The Spell Pen calculations aren't hard. Do them. See where your Spell Pen lies. That's probably why you're underperforming so far. Magister may be enough to bring you up to Epic Hard viability even if you're running a low Spell Penetration, however. And it will almost certainly bring you up to Heroic Elite viability. Still, I think you'll find that a Spell Pen of at least 31 before Epic Destiny's are factored in will make you much, much happier in Epic Hard content.

I run around with 607-632 HP on my WF Archmage (who currently has Toughness). It's more than enough for everything up through Epic Hard. If you get in trouble, avoid being beat upon by moving.

[Lycurgus]

I'm still planning to tr my WF AM a few more times, so am playing with feats and destinies for the time being before planning out the final life. I dropped empower for spell pen (and swapped in 2 rogue levels, but that's another story) in order to pick up piercing spellcraft. In short, the loss of empower is barely noticeable on epic hard. Instead of mass hold, I tend to throw dancing balls with cloud kill and icestorm. It's effective through epic hard, albeit slower. Add in energy burst from the draconic line and you're golden..

The real question, of course, is how does the loss of empower and increase in spell pen work in elite runs. I'll get in some runs later this week and provide some feedback.

[DyrtNap]

Afaik Empower is additive now so much less of a loss than it used to be. I'm actually annoyed that I didn't drop it for free when I had the chance.

SPen wise I think I only have 33-35 and am seeing fails on a 2 in Epic Hard. On the other hand Epic Hard feels like a complete joke to my 1st life wizard w/o a single raid piece only 2 epic pieces (cove trink and Necro Staff), not even any commendation pieces. Hell I only have a 43 or 44 Necro DC and it lands a fair bit but is still too low.