what happened to the fun called PUG

[Zephea]

Agreed. Sick of people trying to take away something I enjoy because THEY are lacking.

Also, you could find a guild.

Just c'mon, people. Stop asking for nerfs. Seriously.

YOU are not forced to use bravery bonus. NO ONE IS.

*I* love it. Why should I be penalized because you can't make friends?

This is a bit unfair. The guild system is extremely unfair to newer or more casual players. Similarly if you do not have RL friends who also play the population is so fluid that if you are casual or newer it is difficult to make friends who will matc with your time/standard.

Watching the lfm panels it very much looks like there is so sort of problem going on with grouping. It's affected both by the BB and also by people choosing to play only within guild or channels.

As people leave as they find the content too easy or are attracted by other games are we replenishing our population?

[mons]

It goes both ways. Why should you continue to have fun while others struggle to play? It wasn't like this before. The BB system is to blame. Personally I like the BB system, but I'm open-minded enough to understand the plight of those who are being alienated by it. And for what? So you can hit end-game faster? The destination is not greater than the journey.

Frankly, the BB system is not a new player-friendly system. I'm not suggesting they get rid of it, but something needs to be changed to satisfy both parties.

It actually goes 4 ways - casual - normal - hard - elite.

Really?

It was worse than this b4 BB. Neg ten doesnt really matter anymore.

People who feel they are owed something for nothing are to blame.

I like it too.

Calling for a nerf and targeting a specific playstyle sounds pretty narrowminded to me.

Does it really keep you up at night because others dont play a game like you want them too? For some im sure the destination is the journey, over and over and over.....

I really cant think of 1 new player that would run content from 1-25 on elite, not saying there isnt but Id be willing to bet they are fewer than than population that does run it on elite.

[Thundaga]

It actually goes 4 ways - casual - normal - hard - elite.

Uhhhh-huh...

People who feel they are owed something for nothing are to blame.

Again, it goes both ways (do you not know what this implies?).

Calling for a nerf and targeting a specific playstyle sounds pretty narrowminded to me.

Does it really keep you up at night because others dont play a game like you want them too? For some im sure the destination is the journey, over and over and over.....

I really cant think of 1 new player that would run content from 1-25 on elite, not saying there isnt but Id be willing to bet they are fewer than than population that does run it on elite.
07-20-2012 12:09 AM

I think you're missing the point, bro. Due to bravery bonuses, most of the community want to play on Elite to maximize their exp gain. As a result, players who want to do Normal/Hard are having trouble finding groups when they log in to play. It doesn't bother YOU because YOU are not being affected. YOU don't care about the little guy. Not as long as you can have your maximized exp.

Like I said, I love doing Elites and I love earning bonuses for doing them many times in a row, but at least I understand how much that might be a problem to other people who think the game is too hard on elite and just want to have a fun experience. Personally I have more fun on higher difficulties, but not EVERYONE feels that way.

And I also said that I'm not suggesting the BB system be taken out completely. I'm suggesting we compromise and meet each other half way. I'm not entirely sure what kind of system this would be as a result, but I figure it would have something to do with rewarding everyone fairly no matter which difficulty they choose to play on. Basically there needs to be incentive for playing on each difficulty rather than JUST on Elite. Sure, we also get bravery bonuses for doing Hard mode, but over all it's still not enough to persuade most people to lower themselves off the Elite shelf.

[barakhiel]

Here's a thought; either lower the cap on the streak to 3 elite/hard first time completions in a row while simultaneously bumping up the bonus for first time elite/hard completion of any said quest, in which case, those of us who choose to keep the streak take on no XP penalty while other players feel less penalized for breaking it.

Or even another thought is to completely remove bravery bonus and add an overall first time completion bonus to each quest which grants additional XP based on the difficulty of the first completion of said quest; e.g. Run quest on elite first, earn +80% for 1st time elite and an additional 50% for 1st overall completion on elite; vs. running said quest on hard first, earn +50% for 1st time hard and an additional 25% for 1st overall completion on hard, but you cannot earn this "1st overall completion" bonus XP for this quest again this life.
Now we are looking at earning the same XP that people have through the streak and the only penalty to choosing to run a quest on less than elite is missing out on XP *for that quest*

And in my own defense, when the Bravery Bonus came about, I was pretty excited to see the opportunity for more XP per quest and speed up the painfully slow (at least for grinding Barbarian lives) journey back to endgame (sorry everyone, this is where the fun content is at).
That is, until I saw what had been done to quest XP. Bravery made running typically low XP quests worth running for that first time bonus, but in the process, the base XP of many high XP quests has been halved or worse; Litany of the Dead base XP on elite is now just over 9k vs the 18k? or more which it used to be... First time elite completion of Genesis Point used to earn me over 32k XP, now with a full elite streak it earns just over 24k.

Bravery Bonus was intended to force players to buy and play a wider variety of content while simultaneously killing the replay value of these same quests.

Sorry guys, while the bulk of you who TR and do so regularly will stand behind the Bravery Bonus system as-is, I'm happy to have gotten the bulk of my TR work done prior to the implementation of this system and fall into the group of those who believe it needs to be fixed.

[MRMechMan]

The problem isn't the bravery bonus, it's the minority of players that are so ignorant of XP mechanics that they believe breaking a streak is hurting their overall XP, and so arrogant that they refuse to run quests below elite.

Breaking an elite streak and maintaining a hard one costs you about 7000 XP in reduced future XP payouts at high level (25/25/25/20/10% of base XP on your next 5 quests if you do them all on elite, most quests are <7000 base XP). Doing a Hard run of a quest might take 5 minutes and pay 15k XP.

The people that won't ever break streak are as stupid as the people that join a 20 minute quest they had no intention of running when it is 1 minute before completion, then recall out 'because of the -80%'.



And as for facts - I post LFMs often for sub-elite difficulties and people join them. They fill faster than LFMs for notoriously difficult elite quests like Power Play or Bastion of Power.

On the money, +1

[samthedagger]

No. Don't remove BB. Start your own LFMs and state what you want to run. People who only want to run elite will ignore it. People who are more casual players like the OP will join. If you don't know the quest, don't worry about it. You don't even have to mention it to the group. Chances are people running a quest on Normal or Hard probably don't know it much better than you do and you can enjoy a shared learning experience. But don't take away the extremely popular BB just because you are too afraid to start your own LFMs. I promise you there are plenty of casual and new players out there on every server willing to PUG into your Normal or Hard run. But you are joining LFMs that state they are looking for an Elite opener. Don't be surprised if those people bail if the right person cannot be found.

[mons]

Again, it goes both ways (do you not know what this implies?).

You keep saying it but never explain it so plz by all means, whats it imply?

I think you're missing the point, bro. Due to bravery bonuses, most of the community want to play on Elite to maximize their exp gain. As a result, players who want to do Normal/Hard are having trouble finding groups when they log in to play.

Im thinking your exaggerating those numbers quite a bit there friend, if your implying most of this forum community = actual world wide server community then I hate to inform you that well, your wrong. As far as players wanting to run norm/hard go, they can form their own groups, what part of this do you not understand?

It doesn't bother YOU because YOU are not being affected. YOU don't care about the little guy. Not as long as you can have your maximized exp.

I would like you to explain to me why it SHOULD bother me?
It doesnt affect me because because I:

a - run with a static group or guild.
and
b - put up my own lfm at my discretion or join someone else

We were all the little guy in this game at 1 time. No, for me its not all about maximized xp, there are other factors that I value more.

Like I said, I love doing Elites and I love earning bonuses for doing them many times in a row, but at least I understand how much that might be a problem to other people who think the game is too hard on elite and just want to have a fun experience. Personally I have more fun on higher difficulties, but not EVERYONE feels that way.

This here is where you are missing the point, they can run it on a lesser difficulty.

And I also said that I'm not suggesting the BB system be taken out completely. I'm suggesting we compromise and meet each other half way. I'm not entirely sure what kind of system this would be as a result, but I figure it would have something to do with rewarding everyone fairly no matter which difficulty they choose to play on. Basically there needs to be incentive for playing on each difficulty rather than JUST on Elite. Sure, we also get bravery bonuses for doing Hard mode, but over all it's still not enough to persuade most people to lower themselves off the Elite shelf.

BB is the compromise, everyone does get rewarded fairly regardless of difficulty and there is incentive to play on all difficulties. Are you saying everyone new who plays this game has the ability/skillset to conquer every quest on elite? I think not.

[Thundaga]

You keep saying it but never explain it so plz by all means, whats it imply?

In the first case that I used it, I was referring to your quote here:

... why should their fun be nerfed because it doesnt equate to someone else's idea of fun?

It goes both ways in that while you believe your fun shouldn't be nerfed just because others don't agree with it, the others believe their own fun shouldn't be nerfed just because you don't agree with IT. Basically you get what you want, while others don't get what they want. But you're okay with that and believe they shouldn't complain. It's easy for someone in your position, who has everything he needs, to tell others, who don't have what they need, to stop complaining. If your roles were reversed, you'd be the one complaining and they would be telling YOU to stop complaining. Do you see how this works?

In the second case that I used it, I was referring to your quote here:

People who feel they are owed something for nothing are to blame.

It goes both ways in that you should also not expect to be owed something. What makes you think you're more important than anyone else? Just because the BB system is active right now doesn't mean you should expect that system not to be taken away from you one day. You don't own that system. You should appreciate that you have it in the first place. The developers didn't NEED to give you a way to earn more exp at a quicker rate. But in doing so they've kind of alienated a different type of player within their community. One side is happy (you're on this side), and the other side is unhappy. As someone who is happy, you're telling those who are unhappy to stop expecting something to be done for them. Instead of wanting to compromise so that both sides can be happy, you'd rather have everything to yourself. What makes you think you're entitled to that while the other side isn't?

That's the only part of your last post that I will reply to, because the rest of the stuff you said is forcing us to argue in circles. It's evident that you're having trouble seeing the big picture of the issue.

[mons]

It goes both ways in that while you believe your fun shouldn't be nerfed just because others don't agree with it, the others believe their own fun shouldn't be nerfed just because you don't agree with IT.

I never said MY fun, look it up slick, I said THEIR FUN, I understand and realize not everyones idea of fun is the same, you however seem to think that the new player is just that, entitled to something for doing absolutely nothing. Your remark about the others believeing their own fun shouldnt be nerfed because I dont agree with it, where did i ever say I dont agree with it, hell, I thought this was you complaining about new people not able to run quests on elite and blaming it on the BB system? am I wrong?

Basically you get what you want, while others don't get what they want.

I get what I want because I worked for and earned it, its not my issue or problem that someone else cant.

But you're okay with that and believe they shouldn't complain. It's easy for someone in your position, who has everything he needs, to tell others, who don't have what they need, to stop complaining. If your roles were reversed, you'd be the one complaining and they would be telling YOU to stop complaining. Do you see how this works?.

When they are just plain lazy, yes, im ok with that.

I dont have everything and that of which I do have, I would give graciously give to friends and guildys alike.

I tell others (like you) to learn the quests by running them, get the gear by completing the quests and you will eventually earn the skill that goes with it. Theres nothing wrong with complaining if its justified.

Like I did state before, we were all the little guy once meaning yeah, I was once that guy with nothing, but I didnt come to the forums and cry about it, I ran the quests til I got what I wanted.

It goes both ways in that you should also not expect to be owed something.

Where did I ever say I was?

What makes you think you're more important than anyone else.

Where did I ever say I was?

Just because the BB system is active right now doesn't mean you should expect that system not to be taken away from you one day.

FYI I was 20tr's into the game before BB was here and I will gladly adapt if that day comes.

You don't own that system. You should appreciate that you have it in the first place. The developers didn't NEED to give you a way to earn more exp at a quicker rate.

Neither do you. I do appreciate it, thats why im arguing my points to you. Your abosolutely right there, but im grateful they did.

But in doing so they've kind of alienated a different type of player within their community. One side is happy (you're on this side), and the other side is unhappy.

I dont agree, there is nothing stopping those people from forming their own group and running on a lesser difficulty.

As someone who is happy, you're telling those who are unhappy to stop expecting something to be done for them. Instead of wanting to compromise so that both sides can be happy, you'd rather have everything to yourself. What makes you think you're entitled to that while the other side isn't?.

Again, I tell others (like you) to learn the quests by running them, get the gear by completing the quests and you will eventually earn the skill that goes with it. Ive earned everything I have. Im entitled to what I have because ive earned it.
I cant play your character for you.

That's the only part of your last post that I will reply to, because the rest of the stuff you said is forcing us to argue in circles. It's evident that you're having trouble seeing the big picture of the issue.

I will agree this is just going to go in circles. The only thing that is evident is what you yourself typed initially:

Someone may have said this already, but I'm too tired and lazy to read the thread.

At least part of it anyways, have a good day!

[Dragaer]

Sorry everyone...I had coffee come out my nose.

Nepalm, he called you bro! Lol. That lost any ounce of seriousness

[Thundaga]

Mons, dude, what the heck are you even talking about in more than half your post? Most of it has nothing to do with what we're talking about! We're talking about PUG groups, and how the BB system alienates players who don't want to run Elites all day by making it harder for them to find groups a lot of the time.

Why are you talking about how much you've earned? How the heck did you EARN an optional system the developers put into the game to help people level up faster?

I never said MY fun, look it up slick, I said THEIR FUN, I understand and realize not everyones idea of fun is the same, you however seem to think that the new player is just that, entitled to something for doing absolutely nothing.

What you don't realize is that you completely missed the point I was making. I feel like I'm talking to a dolphin. How about I just pat you on the head, tell you "good job!," and toss you tasty fish.

... hell, I thought this was you complaining about new people not able to run quests on elite and blaming it on the BB system? am I wrong?

Not just new players, but also the more casual players who dislike the difficulty Elite brings to the table. Also, the only thing I'm blaming the BB system for is the fact that it's making it harder for those new and casual players to find groups through the LFM system.

In fact, I don't hate the BB system, as I've already stated like three times throughout my posts in this thread. I love it. Personally I'm not a new player nor am I a casual player. What I'm TRYING to get you to understand is that I wish we could get some sort of CHANGE to the BB system so that it doesn't alienate the new and casual players of our community, not an entire stripping of the system itself.

What we're talking about here, Mons, or at least what I have been talking about, is two things: the BB system and the LFM system, and how these two systems are struggling to work together.

Where did I ever say I was? Where did I ever say I was?

You didn't literally say any of it. I will refer you to my dolphin comment above.

[mons]

Mons, dude, what the heck are you even talking about in more than half your post? Most of it has nothing to do with what we're talking about! We're talking about PUG groups, and how the BB system alienates players who don't want to run Elites all day by making it harder for them to find groups a lot of the time.

Why are you talking about how much you've earned? How the heck did you EARN an optional system the developers put into the game to help people level up faster?



What you don't realize is that you completely missed the point I was making. I feel like I'm talking to a dolphin. How about I just pat you on the head, tell you "good job!," and toss you tasty fish.



Not just new players, but also the more casual players who dislike the difficulty Elite brings to the table. Also, the only thing I'm blaming the BB system for is the fact that it's making it harder for those new and casual players to find groups through the LFM system.

In fact, I don't hate the BB system, as I've already stated like three times throughout my posts in this thread. I love it. Personally I'm not a new player nor am I a casual player. What I'm TRYING to get you to understand is that I wish we could get some sort of CHANGE to the BB system so that it doesn't alienate the new and casual players of our community, not an entire stripping of the system itself.

What we're talking about here, Mons, or at least what I have been talking about, is two things: the BB system and the LFM system, and how these two systems are struggling to work together.



You didn't literally say any of it. I will refer you to my dolphin comment above.

Mons, dude, what the heck are you even talking about in more than half your post? Most of it has nothing to do with what we're talking about! We're talking about PUG groups, and how the BB system alienates players who don't want to run Elites all day by making it harder for them to find groups a lot of the time.

Seriusly man, so nothing I quoted YOU on has nothing to do with what were talking about? I really dont know how else to say make your own group but its obvious this conversation really isnt going anywhere, as we both stated its just going in circles.

Why are you talking about how much you've earned?

You asked

How the heck did you EARN an optional system the developers put into the game to help people level up faster?

No idea what your talking about there.

What you don't realize is that you completely missed the point I was making. I feel like I'm talking to a dolphin. How about I just pat you on the head, tell you "good job!," and toss you tasty fish.

I like dolphins

Not just new players, but also the more casual players who dislike the difficulty Elite brings to the table. Also, the only thing I'm blaming the BB system for is the fact that it's making it harder for those new and casual players to find groups through the LFM system.

In fact, I don't hate the BB system, as I've already stated like three times throughout my posts in this thread. I love it. Personally I'm not a new player nor am I a casual player. What I'm TRYING to get you to understand is that I wish we could get some sort of CHANGE to the BB system so that it doesn't alienate the new and casual players of our community, not an entire stripping of the system itself.

They can make their own LFM's. simple.

[Bunker]

Everytime there is a discussion about LFMs and PUGs, the bravery bonus system comes into question. The way I see it, if the bravery bonus system wasn't in exsistance, then the black sheep would change from "bravery bonus" to "zerging lfms", or any other type of group/party make up that rubs palyers the wrong way.

Starting your own lfm. Joining the proper guild. Using your friends list for what it is. and dont' forget the chat channels. These systems are in place so you can expand your chances of finding like minded players to group with.

I like to PUG it up. Since my guild is a guild of 3, I pug 95% of the time. Regardless of systems that are in place, like the BB system, I don't let it affect my gaming. If I dont' see a group in the LFM panel, I start one.

PUGing is still the same as it always was imho. I just see the bravery bonus system being targeted as an issue, and no longer are my "zerg" lfms and "know your stuff" and "byoh" lfms being the target issue. Everyone always likes to point fingers at something, instead of looking at themselves.

[mons]

Sorry everyone...I had coffee come out my nose.

Nepalm, he called you bro! Lol. That lost any ounce of seriousness

hehe, my group is getting a chuckle of it all too.

[Thundaga]

No idea what your talking about there.

Heh, of course you don't. It seems a lot of what I'm saying isn't really getting through. I'm done trying to explain. No hard feelings. We're cool.

PUGing is still the same as it always was imho. I just see the bravery bonus system being targeted as an issue, and no longer are my "zerg" lfms and "know your stuff" and "byoh" lfms being the target issue. Everyone always likes to point fingers at something, instead of looking at themselves.

BB is just the "new" issue. But that doesn't mean the other issues don't still apply. BB'ers, Zergers, and BYOH'ers all add up, as well as some guilds these days which solely exist for the free buffs. It really feels (keyword: feels) like new players and casual players need friends to join with (friends they may not have), or they may be forced to solo a lot.

Just saying, if we could get some kind of perfect system that gave all players the incentive to play on the lesser difficulties more often, as well as Elite, we could fix a lot of problems. Let's not forget we share this game with a big community full of many different types of gamers. When it comes to MMO's, we need systems to please most, if not all, these different types.

[Bunker]

Heh, of course you don't. It seems a lot of what I'm saying isn't really getting through. I'm done trying to explain. No hard feelings. We're cool.



BB is just the "new" issue. But that doesn't mean the other issues don't still apply. BB'ers, Zergers, and BYOH'ers all add up, as well as some guilds these days which solely exist for the free buffs. It really feels (keyword: feels) like new players and casual players need friends to join with (friends they may not have), or they may be forced to solo a lot.

Just saying, if we could get some kind of perfect system that gave all players the incentive to play on the lesser difficulties more often, as well as Elite, we could fix a lot of problems. Let's not forget we share this game with a big community full of many different types of gamers. When it comes to MMO's, we need systems to please most, if not all, these different types.

It seems like you are asking for a system that helps control how players interact with each other. A system that helps players group with other players. I think some of the current systems in place do just that.

Keep in mind a few things. As we discuss about how PUGs have changed, dont' forget the GAME itself has changed. The players that play the game have changed. A lot of players have evolved right along with the game.

If the bravery bonus system started when the game started, or when the game went to F2P, the players might have a different reaction to it.

I think speaking on the topic of casual/new players and how they interact with the gaming community is important. But I do feel that TIME itself is the reason that new/casual players seem to meld differently in game than in the past. As the mass of player base are not as new anymore, and the game and player base has changed.

Bravery bonus and any other system are just footnotes to a bigger issue.

IE. 2 years ago 50% of the player base was new. And now 10% of the player base is new. These numbers are most certainly fabricated, and not accurate, however if they are in any way close to the truth, then that would be the main reason that PUgging and LFMs are much different, and harder to come by for the casual/new gamer. Dont' you think?

[Thundaga]

Keep in mind a few things. As we discuss about how PUGs have changed, dont' forget the GAME itself has changed. The players that play the game have changed. A lot of players have evolved right along with the game.

If the bravery bonus system started when the game started, or when the game went to F2P, the players might have a different reaction to it.

I think speaking on the topic of casual/new players and how they interact with the gaming community is important. But I do feel that TIME itself is the reason that new/casual players seem to meld differently in game than in the past. As the mass of player base are not as new anymore, and the game and player base has changed.

Interesting points, and you might be right. I don't think the issue would be non-existent, but I do think it might probably be minimized. This isn't quite the case, though. Perhaps given a few more years everyone might adapt and get used to the system... or it might drive off potential long-time players.

Bravery bonus and any other system are just footnotes to a bigger issue.

IE. 2 years ago 50% of the player base was new. And now 10% of the player base is new. These numbers are most certainly fabricated, and not accurate, however if they are in any way close to the truth, then that would be the main reason that PUgging and LFMs are much different, and harder to come by for the casual/new gamer. Dont' you think?

I would like to add to this just in case you're not aware. DDO launched on Steam not very long ago (maybe a month ago now?), thus ushering a whole different community of players. Playing through Korthos again on some new characters I made in the last month or so, I've noticed a surge of new players. I still don't see many non-Elite PUG groups in the LFM. Granted, most of the new players are probably still ignorant to the LFM system. We'll see how that goes.

[Viisari]

Just saying, if we could get some kind of perfect system that gave all players the incentive to play on the lesser difficulties more often, as well as Elite, we could fix a lot of problems.

Huh? What are you even talking about? Currently there's incentive to run elite exactly *once* and then go farm hard or normal. Sometimes there isn't even incentive to do it that one time, at least not at the moment with spell damage being what it is or if the group is missing something important (say a rogue for elite VoN5).

And just yesterday I was looking at the LFM panel hoping to hop in on some elite completions at lvl 16-19, but the only LFM's I saw were for either normal or hard, I don't even see what you're whining about. Elite waterworks being too hard to people?

The system is fine, keep yer hands off the bravery system, that combined with Greater Tomes made TR'ing much more fun. I'm making sure I have fun with the game, why aren't these casuals and newbies you like to defend doing the same? I remember seeing this same senseless whining about new players being discriminated etc. even before bravery was here so it has nothing to do with bravery bonus.

[Ssdprref]

Elite waterworks being too hard to people?

I remember dying in Arachnophobia in my first ever toon , fun times. The basics of the game are pretty simple, the problem it's that both the feats suggestions and pre-determined build are useless.

I think Turbine should consider revamping the old pamphlets and putting links to the Forums in-game to talk with Vets.

[Thundaga]

Huh? What are you even talking about? Currently there's incentive to run elite exactly *once* and then go farm hard or normal.

You get an extra 50% increase to over all exp if you keep up your Elite streak. It stacks up to five times, for 10% per.