First cleric - Tear it apart.

[Olath_Senger]

Hey everyone!

I've gotten tired of having to wait for healers in my PUGs. I figured I'd start a cleric so I'd never have that problem. Thing is, I've only ran clerics up to around level 3 or 4 as favor runners. Almost all my characters are self-healing and most of them can do some group healing as well via wands or blue bars, but I've never had much experience as a dedicated healer. So here's my first go at it.

I'll be playing on a new server. This means no gear, no tomes, no vet status or 32-point builds. And no guild. I have yet to decide what server, but I'm thinking Sarlona.

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.11.02
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 True Neutral Human Male
(20 Cleric) 
Hit Points: 282
Spell Points: 1651 
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 15
Reflex: 5
Will: 21

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(28 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             10                    10
Dexterity             8                     8
Constitution         16                    16
Intelligence          8                     8
Wisdom               18                    28
Charisma              8                     8

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Wisdom used at level 20

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               1                    10
Bluff                -1                    -1
Concentration         7                    26
Diplomacy            -1                     0
Disable Device       n/a                   n/a
Haggle               -1                    -1
Heal                  4                    11
Hide                 -1                    -1
Intimidate           -1                    -1
Jump                  0                     0
Listen                4                     9
Move Silently        -1                    -1
Open Lock            n/a                   n/a
Perform              n/a                   n/a
Repair               -1                    -1
Search               -1                    -1
Spot                  4                     9
Swim                  0                     0
Tumble               n/a                   n/a
Use Magic Device     n/a                   n/a

Level 1 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+2)
Skill: Concentration (+4)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell
Feat: (Human Bonus) Toughness


Level 2 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)


Level 3 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing Spell


Level 4 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: WIS
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)


Level 5 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)


Level 6 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Mental Toughness


Level 7 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)


Level 8 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: WIS
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)


Level 9 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Spell Focus: Necromancy


Level 10 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)


Level 11 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)


Level 12 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: WIS
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Maximize Spell


Level 13 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)


Level 14 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)


Level 15 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Quicken Spell


Level 16 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: WIS
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)


Level 17 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)


Level 18 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Shield Mastery


Level 19 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)


Level 20 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: WIS
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Enhancement: Cleric Radiant Servant I
Enhancement: Cleric Radiant Servant II
Enhancement: Unyielding Sovereignty
Enhancement: Follower of the Sovereign Host
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Wisdom I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Improved Heal I
Enhancement: Improved Heal II
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Smiting I
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Smiting II
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Life I
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Life II
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Incredible Smiting I
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Incredible Smiting II
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Incredible Life I
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Incredible Life II
Enhancement: Cleric Smiting I
Enhancement: Cleric Smiting II
Enhancement: Cleric Smiting III
Enhancement: Cleric Smiting IV
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic I
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic II
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic III
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic IV
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot I
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot II
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot III
Enhancement: Cleric Wisdom I
Enhancement: Cleric Wisdom II
Enhancement: Cleric Wisdom III
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Healing I
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Turning I
Enhancement: Cleric Wand and Scroll Mastery I
Enhancement: Cleric Wand and Scroll Mastery II

Comments/criticism is very welcome. I'd like to be as optimal as I can, given the circumstances I've stated above.

EDIT: Oh, I guess I should say what my goals are. Epic-level healing ability and offensive casting with Implosion, Blade Barrier, and the rest of the standard damaging Cleric spells. Also instakilling (hence Necro focus).

[Tacktik]

Build doesn't look bad for a 28 pointer, though I don't know if I could live with that low CHA thru the undead infested low to mid lvls Only thing I'd do different is replace Mental Toughness with Empower Spell and change the feat order to this:

1.) Empower
1.) (HB). Tonghness
3.) Empower Healing
6.) Maximize
9.) Extend
12.) Necro Focus
15.) Quicken
18.) Shield

Reasoning behind this is that the Radient Servant bursts can be meta'd for free, so in the mid lvls you can lead the kill count vs undead and have lots of sp to spare as you won't use so much on healing. When I hit 6th, I was healing for 200+ with every burst. Of course, this is just my opinion and it's only for ease of lvling. It wouldn't make much of a diference if you did take mental toughness though; I just don't see it as a useful feat on a build like this.

Just a quick tip: each time you drag a spell on to your hotbar, you can set the metas for that spell, though this is common knowledge. The cool part is you can drag it down mutiple times and set the metas for each individual hotkey for the same spell. This has saved my bacon several times, and not too many people seem to know this. A bit off topic, but I thought I'd share it as it's one of the coolest tricks I've learned.

[Sgt_Hart]

No improved Empower healing enhancements?

I CANNOT stress how much SP one saves that way. empower heal is +10 SP. you can -4 that through enhancements. Additionally you can -2 that via gear. Empower heal for 10 SP a cast or 4.

I'd try like hell to work that in. Specifically, I'd look at

Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Incredible Life II

Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot I
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot II
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot III

Long and hard. Your netting 80 from energy, at the cost of 6 AP.

1571 vs 1651 sp. split it up into chunks of 50(single Heal spell) 33 with energy taken. 31 without. Now.. More realistic math.. empowered heal.
1651 / 60 = 27
1571 / 54 = 29

Admittedly, you'd need 12 AP to bring down the reduction to +4SP, and some not-entirely-easy to get gear.

Reason I always regard Incredible life with a bit of suspicion is rather simple: You can't Count on crit heals at crunch time. You won't Crit-mass-heal your way to keeping everyone alive when solo-healing shroud. And let's face it.. 9/10 times its critting.. the target is probably already being over-healed.

still that'd only get you 8/12 points needed to bring your all around cost down.

Scroll mastery? 4 wisdom buys? Not sure. your build after all, just pointing out somewhere I'd diverge significantly from your planning. Food for thought, Don't forget the salt to go with it.

[firemedium_jt]

Tons of info on pure cleric builds on here.

That is only half the battle. Lots of gear information for Cleric too. That is the other half of the battle. And casting and tactics too.

[DavionFuxa]

Mostly Solid, except for Mental Toughness which you may want to exchange for GSF: Necromancy, Empower, perhaps Heighten Spell. All serve different purposes and uses.

I would also concur with Sgt - Empower Healing is nice and you should look into fitting it in. I also agree that while having a rank in Prayer of Life and Prayer of Incredible Life can be nice it becomes less great after the 2nd rank. In generally as well, I find Spell Criticals are less important for Divines since characters have limited Health and not enough of your spells involve inflicting Light or Alignment Based Damage that you are actively going to use.

[Pape_27]

No improved Empower healing enhancements?

I CANNOT stress how much SP one saves that way. empower heal is +10 SP. you can -4 that through enhancements. Additionally you can -2 that via gear. Empower heal for 10 SP a cast or 4.

I'd try like hell to work that in. Specifically, I'd look at

Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Incredible Life II

Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot I
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot II
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot III

Long and hard. Your netting 80 from energy, at the cost of 6 AP.

1571 vs 1651 sp. split it up into chunks of 50(single Heal spell) 33 with energy taken. 31 without. Now.. More realistic math.. empowered heal.
1651 / 60 = 27
1571 / 54 = 29

Admittedly, you'd need 12 AP to bring down the reduction to +4SP, and some not-entirely-easy to get gear.

Reason I always regard Incredible life with a bit of suspicion is rather simple: You can't Count on crit heals at crunch time. You won't Crit-mass-heal your way to keeping everyone alive when solo-healing shroud. And let's face it.. 9/10 times its critting.. the target is probably already being over-healed.

still that'd only get you 8/12 points needed to bring your all around cost down.

Scroll mastery? 4 wisdom buys? Not sure. your build after all, just pointing out somewhere I'd diverge significantly from your planning. Food for thought, Don't forget the salt to go with it.

some thoughts - this above post is some pretty bad advice.

- empower healing enhancements? 12 ap to save 10 per cast? not a good trade off imo. I have two divines and have never taken this enhancement line once.

- Energy of the zealot - 6 ap for 80 sp? good trade off.

- a minimum of Wand and Scroll Mastery II is a good thing, Scroll healing becomes more iportant when you play higher level content and you are trying to conserve mana.

- He has maxed his wisdom, and has stated he wantes to be a caster based cleric, hence the dumped str. He should boost his Wisdom as high as possible.

as for the build, I would consider lowering the con to 14 and adding a few more points in charisma, just to up the number of turns you get.

[hiryuu42]

Like the others here, I think most of the build is fine, but feats need some tweaking.

1.) (HB). Toughness
1.) Extend
Extend is most useful in lower levels when those 1min/level buffs only get a few minutes. Take it early or not at all. Swap it out for Empower *just before* taking level 9, so you get the cheaper feat swap rate from Fred.

3.) Empower Healing
6.) Maximize
These are absolutely required for any caster-focused cleric.

9.) Heighten
For raising DCs, Heighten is essential. Just be selective about it, since it gets expensive.

12.) Shield
15.) Quicken
18.) Spell Penetration
Around level 12, AC stops helping, so that damage reduction comes at a good time. If you've seen a non-Quickened Mass Heal, you know Quicken is a must. Necro Focus is a fine pick, but spell resistance becomes a real problem in late/Epic levels.

[EatSmart]

You've dumped your dex and your strength at the same time. This will be a significant penalty when you try to save against trip effects. (Trip will use an opposed stat check against the highest of your str and dex) I strongly advise that you invest build points into one of the two, at least to the point where they stop being a 1 stat for 1 build point exchange rate. (support that with a + stat item too) The 5 reflex is also in the "auto-fail when fully buffed" range, which will be an annoying-but-livable flaw for easier content, but liability for epic raids that you've stated you want to be able to heal. Fireshield can cover that to a degree as a lot of end game aoe is fire based, but have a think about how you'll source that without UMD. Cometfall looks like this build's big weakspot in its current incarnation.

Implosion is an evocation spell, so keep in mind that your necro focus wont be raising its DC. (It will raise destruction and slay living though)

I'd suggest having maximise at 9 so that you get it in time for bladebarrier at 11. Maximised bladebarrier + maximised DP make the power xp quests like shadow crypt and von 3 elite with bravery extremely fast and easy without being beholden to good quality party members.

I'd put quicken at either 18 if you want to learn to play a cleric without it, or at 12 if you want it available for when the spells you're casting become significant enough to be an issue if they fail to cast.

Might poke my head in here later with more thoughts.

[SirValentine]

Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell
Feat: (Human Bonus) Toughness
Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing Spell
Feat: (Selected) Mental Toughness
Feat: (Selected) Spell Focus: Necromancy
Feat: (Selected) Maximize Spell
Feat: (Selected) Quicken Spell
Feat: (Selected) Shield Mastery

<snip>
EDIT: Oh, I guess I should say what my goals are. Epic-level healing ability and offensive casting with Implosion, Blade Barrier, and the rest of the standard damaging Cleric spells. Also instakilling (hence Necro focus).

If you want effective DCs, you need Heighten. Not saying you should drop Spell Focus, but doing so would IMPROVE your Destruction DC by 1 if you replaced it with Heighten, and your Slay Living by 3!

Consider swapping out Extend later. It's nice at low levels, but not as important when your durations are longer anyway.

I'm not a fan of Mental Toughness. I'd drop it completely, personally, and use THAT for Heighten.

On order, try to fit Maximize (and Empower if you can) as early as possible, for your Positive Energy Burst at level 6. It'll let you obliterate whole rooms full of undead, while healing yourself and allies at the same time.

[Sgt_Hart]

some thoughts - this above post is some pretty bad advice.

- empower healing enhancements? 12 ap to save 10 per cast? not a good trade off imo. I have two divines and have never taken this enhancement line once.

- Energy of the zealot - 6 ap for 80 sp? good trade off.

So.. you've never tried it.. Don't understand it (it's -4 instead of -10 to empower heal), and call it bad advice. Yet its come from someone who has played with out, and played with it, and Did the math.

Sigh. If you don't understand it, and lack and personal experience. Bluntly put, your in no position to judge it.

- a minimum of Wand and Scroll Mastery II is a good thing, Scroll healing becomes more iportant when you play higher level content and you are trying to conserve mana.

No argument, I'd aim for more if possible.

- He has maxed his wisdom, and has stated he wantes to be a caster based cleric, hence the dumped str. He should boost his Wisdom as high as possible..

I may have read OP wrong but..

EDIT: Oh, I guess I should say what my goals are. Epic-level healing ability and offensive casting with Implosion, Blade Barrier, and the rest of the standard damaging Cleric spells. Also instakilling (hence Necro focus).

Let's make that easier to process 'eh?

1. Epic-level healing ability and
2. offensive casting with Implosion, Blade Barrier, and the rest of the standard damaging Cleric spells.
3. Also instakilling (hence Necro focus).

I may be wrong, but order in post leads me to assume that order, and having lived without Empower heal reduction line.. I'll tell you right now, I won't make a cleric without it. I Swear by it.


Essentially, the more blue bar you have.. the more of a difference it makes.

[Lalangamena]

Hey everyone!

I've gotten tired of having to wait for healers in my PUGs. I figured I'd start a cleric so I'd never have that problem. Thing is, I've only ran clerics up to around level 3 or 4 as favor runners. Almost all my characters are self-healing and most of them can do some group healing as well via wands or blue bars, but I've never had much experience as a dedicated healer. So here's my first go at it.

I'll be playing on a new server. This means no gear, no tomes, no vet status or 32-point builds. And no guild. I have yet to decide what server, but I'm thinking Sarlona.

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.11.02
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 True Neutral Human Male
(20 Cleric) 
Hit Points: 282
Spell Points: 1651 
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 15
Reflex: 5
Will: 21

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(28 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             10                    10
Dexterity             8                     8
Constitution         16                    16
Intelligence          8                     8
Wisdom               18                    28
Charisma              8                     8

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Wisdom used at level 20

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               1                    10
Bluff                -1                    -1
Concentration         7                    26
Diplomacy            -1                     0
Disable Device       n/a                   n/a
Haggle               -1                    -1
Heal                  4                    11
Hide                 -1                    -1
Intimidate           -1                    -1
Jump                  0                     0
Listen                4                     9
Move Silently        -1                    -1
Open Lock            n/a                   n/a
Perform              n/a                   n/a
Repair               -1                    -1
Search               -1                    -1
Spot                  4                     9
Swim                  0                     0
Tumble               n/a                   n/a
Use Magic Device     n/a                   n/a

Level 1 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+2)
Skill: Concentration (+4)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell
Feat: (Human Bonus) Toughness


Level 2 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)


Level 3 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing Spell


Level 4 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: WIS
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)


Level 5 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)


Level 6 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Mental Toughness


Level 7 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)


Level 8 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: WIS
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)


Level 9 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Spell Focus: Necromancy


Level 10 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)


Level 11 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)


Level 12 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: WIS
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Maximize Spell


Level 13 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)


Level 14 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)


Level 15 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Quicken Spell


Level 16 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: WIS
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)


Level 17 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)


Level 18 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Shield Mastery


Level 19 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)


Level 20 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: WIS
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Enhancement: Cleric Radiant Servant I
Enhancement: Cleric Radiant Servant II
Enhancement: Unyielding Sovereignty
Enhancement: Follower of the Sovereign Host
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Wisdom I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Improved Heal I
Enhancement: Improved Heal II
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Smiting I
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Smiting II
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Life I
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Life II
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Incredible Smiting I
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Incredible Smiting II
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Incredible Life I
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Incredible Life II
Enhancement: Cleric Smiting I
Enhancement: Cleric Smiting II
Enhancement: Cleric Smiting III
Enhancement: Cleric Smiting IV
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic I
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic II
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic III
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic IV
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot I
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot II
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot III
Enhancement: Cleric Wisdom I
Enhancement: Cleric Wisdom II
Enhancement: Cleric Wisdom III
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Healing I
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Turning I
Enhancement: Cleric Wand and Scroll Mastery I
Enhancement: Cleric Wand and Scroll Mastery II

Comments/criticism is very welcome. I'd like to be as optimal as I can, given the circumstances I've stated above.

EDIT: Oh, I guess I should say what my goals are. Epic-level healing ability and offensive casting with Implosion, Blade Barrier, and the rest of the standard damaging Cleric spells. Also instakilling (hence Necro focus).

my opinion:
your stat distribution is good, but i would take less con (14) and boost charisma, as i am a strong fan of charisma and lots of bursts.
enhancements you can always reset, I will just add that the scroll healing line is very important and the empowered healing line is not important.

feats:
1: toughness -> dead cleric is no cleric
hb: shield mastery --> for 20% passive damage reduction on towers or 15% on regular shields
3 empower heal -> for rad1 requirement, this is the only meta that is always on.
6 maximize -> to boost burst and aura
9 empower -> to boost burst and aura even more
12-> if you implosion /BB fan take here SF evocation, i am more of a destruction fan so i would take SF necro.
15 quicken-> to cast mass heal as it is impossible to cast it properly with no quicken. (later you will find that symbol of death also castable only with quicken )
18 heighten, not for implosion but for destruction and command spells.


I really dont like extend because i believe that in most spells its cheaper to cast it twice rather than extended.
extend is bard meta IMHO.

[Olath_Senger]

Thanks for the advice, everyone! It's really helped me a lot.

For stats I'll drop Con down to 14 and get Cha to 12 for extra bursts and auras.

Level 1 I'll keep Extend and swap it out at level 6 for Empower. Level 6 take Maximize. Take Quicken at level 9, Shield Mastery at level 12, and Heighten at level 15. Level 18 is open. Probably Spell Pen or Spell Focus.

As for enhancements, Take out Prayer of (Incredible) Smiting and only 1 rank in (Incredible) Life for Radiant Servant II. Put the remaining points into Empowered Healing II and Extra Turn II.

Is the capstone any good or should I pass on that?

EDIT: Another question. I hear at low levels the offensive spells of a cleric aren't that great until Blade Barrier. What should I do until then? Play as a dreaded hjealbot? Or chug a Bull's Strength potion and try to keep up with the melees?

[Sarisa]

I don't like the Empower Healing enhancements, but that's more because I don't use Empower Heal for the Heal or Mass Heal. Those two spells overheal a good bit on most players anyway, so spending extra isn't worthwhile.

If your playstyle finds yourself using Mass Cures with Empower Heal active more than Mass Heal, then having the Empower Healing enhancements, and possibly an item too, are worthwhile.

It's a playstyle choice.

--

The capstone is situational. I use it on my main Cleric in dangerous spell/trap areas just in case I roll low too many times on reflex saves. I use it to pass through the red light of death to light the VoD runes easier. I use it to help position the Titan in that raid and live through a pillar drop/laser shot. I use it to pull trapped levers in Epic Wiz King and Epic VoN4. I use it on someone who constantly takes aggro off a tank and can't get rid of it, letting him go incap'ed and shed aggro without dying and losing his buffs.

My other current Cleric is 17/3 (Monk), and I don't miss it. If you're pure, it's worth fitting in, but don't stress too much if you don't have it or can't fit it in.

--

Extend is another playstyle choice. If you plan on melee'ing a lot, it's good to have for the short term melee buffs. It's also good if you play some of the longer drawn out shrine light quests like Epic Chains.

It's not terribly necessary for others. Feel free to replace it with something else if you so desire.

--

Prior to Blade Barrier and Divine Punishment (for boss fights), play as a weaker crowd controller and pull out a weapon. Before level 10-12, there isn't that much difference in melee damage between the classes (it's mostly in the weapons), so a decent weapon you can use is great.

Command, Soundburst, and if you have the SP to spend, Hold Person, will get you through the Harbour. Holy Smite at level 7 blinds large groups of mobs, and blind mobs don't hit as often. The almighty Greater Command comes in at level 9, and I still use Greater Command in Epics.

Do a lot of undead heavy quests in the level 6-10 range if you want to blow things up. The RS Burst is incredible for that (remember to right click it to set the metas, which apply for no additional cost).

I also feel that Paralyzing weapons (you can get them as low as 8 for a rare BtA or race required one) does a huge help in stretching out your SP bar.

[Pape_27]

[/COLOR]
So.. you've never tried it.. Don't understand it (it's -4 instead of -10 to empower heal), and call it bad advice. Yet its come from someone who has played with out, and played with it, and Did the math.

Sigh. If you don't understand it, and lack and personal experience. Bluntly put, your in no position to judge it.

Quite the opposite. I understand it very well. Basically you are proposing that he spend 12 ap on an enhancement line that will basically save him the equivalent of two heals - 12 ap that can be used to boost other spells besides an empowered heal. Given the introduction of the radiant servant pre, the additional heals that are saved via the empower heal line (2 heals according to your math) are easily made up with via alternative healing methods. Its a no brainer that its not worth the cost.

As for no experience, my very first life I used it. Then specced out of it - It made no real difference then - on a 28 point build following the turbine Warpriest of Syberis path. It was juat not worth it in my experience because I wanted to do other things than just cast heals on the party.


I may be wrong, but order in post leads me to assume that order, and having lived without Empower heal reduction line.. I'll tell you right now, I won't make a cleric without it. I Swear by it.

Essentially, the more blue bar you have.. the more of a difference it makes.

There are plenty of mana regen items in the game. The archivist necklace, the twisted talism, the ring of spell storing, the bard song, the cake, the turn in for medium eberron shards, the torq, conc/op and lets not forget pots. The point is the cost ap wise is not justified. The blue bar is easy to extend. What you give up in return for the empower enhancement line isnt worth it imo.

Comments in color.

[Beethoven]

What Sarisa said (+1). Lots of it boils down to player choice. Many people will tell their choice/style is superior, but that's not always true as playstyle makes a lot of difference though. I'd be to build the cleric I'd make a couple changes though:

* Extend: it's more useful for a melee build really. Most your standard buffs (Protection from Evil, Deathward, Freedom, Resists) don't need to be extended on a capped cleric. 20 minutes is plenty. It's nice to be able extend Divine Favor/Divine Power on a melee build, but since you are not these non issue. Leaves Prayer, Recitation and Holy Aura. So, you ultimately spending one feat to not have to recast 3 spells as often. Spells you may or may not cast a lot (Prayer boosts damage and is a group buff, Recitation boosts AC and Saves but the Saves bonus does not stack with other Luck bonuses. Holy Aura is extremely nice for the stacking saves boost but also not necessary).

* Mental Toughness: SP are always nice but I found on a cleric HP > SP. You can mitigate a lot of SP costs by using your Aura, Aura bursts and Scrolls. You can regain SP via gear (ie: Conc/Opp, Torc, Bauble). You really cannot do a lot if you run out of HP. Particular in end-game and epics there situations were you might end up taking a lot of burst damage.

* Spell Focus Necromancy: does have a couple of nice spells (Slay Living, Destruction, Symbol of Death) but on a first life cleric it may be hard getting your DC up there to make those spells land even with SF (as they target Fort which is often a high save). Generally you likely are better off with Spell Focus: Evocation (Blade Barrier, Implosion) which targets reflex (a low save for caster and melee types).

My suggestions would be:
* Replace Extend with Empower. Empower stacks with Maximize on your damage dealing spells (ie: Blade Barrier).
* Replace Mental Toughness with Toughness
* You want a SF feat switch it to SF: Evocation.
* You want to keep Extend you could switch out Mental Toughness for Empower or switch SF: Necro for Empower.

I'd also get rid of the Energy of the Zealot Enhancements. The points could go towards more Scroll Mastery and Toughness. Style matters of course, I am a stickler for having as much HP on my divines as reasonably possible and making up for the slightly lower SP by investing into non-SP specific healing (Aura, Scrolls).

Is the capstone any good or should I pass on that?

Generally no. Situational yes. There are (limited) cases where a capstone cleric is nice, such as epic LoB (you die, you go on a timer to be raised. It can be bad if you are without your main tank for a few minutes). There are work-arounds (ie: go with two tanks). Other cases it's nice but limited useful. You can DI, say, an eChrono or Horuth tank but DI only keeps them from dieing. It does not prevent them from loosing aggro. So, the difference it makes here is only that the tank does not loose ship buffs (if any) and does not need to be rebuffed. The alternative is to just not let them die. Bad luck happens though. DI is nice but hardly necessary.

My personal opinion: you go 20 level cleric take it. Me? Any cleric I build these days no longer goes 20 levels but are all clonks to varying degrees (either 2 or 3 levels of monk) since Evasion, +1 DC (Water Stance) and additional HP (Monk bonus feats) compliment my playstyle better than what the last two to three levels of cleric have to offer (including capstone).

[Sgt_Hart]

Sarisa Pretty much nailed it, All a matter of preference and play-style really.

Lacking vet status I'd want empower heal, and shield mastery as my first two, if beginning at level 1. That early Damage immunity is quite useful, as is the ability to adequately convert spell points directly into hit points. And well, you need empower heal for RS, and I'd think want RS asap.

- empower healing enhancements? 12 ap to save 10 per cast? not a good trade off imo. I have two divines and have never taken this enhancement line once.

As for no experience, my very first life I used it. Then specced out of it - It made no real difference then - on a 28 point build following the turbine Warpriest of Syberis path.

Credibility: Your doing it wrong.

[SirValentine]

Is the capstone any good or should I pass on that?

The capstone is worth spending 2 AP on if you are a pure 20 Cleric anyway for other reasons. It's is somewhat useful. It is not worth staying a pure 20 just to get the capstone, though, IMO.

EDIT: Another question. I hear at low levels the offensive spells of a cleric aren't that great until Blade Barrier. What should I do until then? Play as a dreaded hjealbot? Or chug a Bull's Strength potion and try to keep up with the melees?

Well, at low level divine spells are not good at KILLING stuff. A well-placed Sound Burst, Command, or Hold Person can still be very effective in a group, though.

But still, doing some melee at low levels is a good idea; mobs will die faster, so you'll save SP.

[Pape_27]

Credibility: Your doing it wrong.

Yes, I was wrong in my original post. I remembered a friend had bamboozled me into taking it and put it out there. Doesn't make me wrong, it makes me forgetful... at times. Three divines, specced out of in the first, never bothered with it on the 2nd and 3rd.

You want to waste ap and extoll it's virtues? Go right ahead, that pretty much says it all. Spend your sp for two extra heals if you want. Its bad advice though to pass that on. If its that much of a necessity find some one to craft an emp healing II (-2 sp per cast) item and wear that in a slot.

I'll use my sp on killing things so the two extra heals wont matter.

Basically, I guess thats the difference in mindset between playing a divine and playing a healbot.

[Sarisa]

At low levels, an Invulnerability item (robe/Mithral Full Plate if you can get 20-30 AC) is a huge amount of damage reduction. Potions (and the first tier of Human Improved Recovery), or Wands (with the first tier of Scroll and Wand mastery) can cover most of your healing needs. What extra you get from Shield Mastery isn't that significant at lower levels.

I'd value Shield Mastery more toward the mid levels, when mobs start to more regularly bypass Invulnerability DR, and have much higher base damage in general. Getting it around the level 9-15 range is best in my opinion. When you start the elite Droam content in the Lordsmarch chains, taking off 20% of the 20-40 damage hits that bypass Invulnerability is much more useful.

Putting off Shield Mastery until later allows you to get the metas earlier, and power up your RS Burst for healing and blasting undead.

[hiryuu42]

Long and hard. Your netting 80 from energy, at the cost of 6 AP.

1571 vs 1651 sp. split it up into chunks of 50(single Heal spell) 33 with energy taken. 31 without. Now.. More realistic math.. empowered heal.
1651 / 60 = 27
1571 / 54 = 29

Admittedly, you'd need 12 AP to bring down the reduction to +4SP, and some not-entirely-easy to get gear.

This math is a bit funky. Either you have an Empower Healing II item or you don't, but it works even without the enhancement line. You need to compare 60 vs 56 or 58 vs 54. Math is close either way, but this is a first cleric, so I'll go with no item. Also, you're comparing a 12 AP investment against a 6 AP investment. Let's take Energy IV (10 AP total) to keep it more fair.

1571 / 56 = 28.05 Empowered Heal, Mass
1681 / 60 = 28.01 Empowered Heal, Mass

BUT! Unless you like Interrupted Glacial Pace Heal, Mass, the only realistic way to cast that spell is Quickened, for another 10 SP each.
1571 / 66 = 23.80 Quickened Empowered Heal, Mass
1681 / 70 = 24.01 Quickened Empowered Heal, Mass

This all assumes you spend most/all of your blue bar on healing. The less healbot you go, the more this swings in favor of generic SP, rather than specialized enhancements.