necro water savant build

[masterblaster-1]

OK, gonna TR (#1) my sorc. I like to have a nerco option water savant. Here is my plan.

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Stats start/end/geared

Str 11/11/17
Con 17/18/24 (26 with tome)
Dex 8/8/8
Int 10/10/10
Wis 8/8/8
Chr 18/26/32 (34 with tome)


PAST LIVES SELECTED:
Sorcerer (1)

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LEVEL 1
Race Selected: Male Human
Alignment Selected: True Neutral
Class Selected: Sorcerer (Sorcerer 1)
Abilities Raised: STR: 10, DEX: 9, CON: 17, INT: 10, CHA: 18
Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +1 (1), Concentration +4 (4), Jump +1 (1), UMD +2 (2)
Feats Selected: Toughness, Extend Spell
Enhancements Selected: Sorcerer Energy of the Dragonblooded I, Frost Manipulation I, Acid Manipulation I, Flame Manipulation I

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LEVEL 2
Class Selected: Sorcerer (Sorcerer 2)
Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +1 (2), Concentration +1 (5)
Enhancements Selected: Sorcerer Charisma I, Glacial Spellcasting I, Sorcerer Wand and Scroll Mastery I

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LEVEL 3
Class Selected: Sorcerer (Sorcerer 3)
Skills Ranks Raised: Concentration +1 (6), UMD +1 (3)
Feats Selected: Force of Personality (change to Heighten Spell at 20th)
Enhancements Selected: Human Improved Recovery I, Racial Toughness I, Deadly Ice I

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LEVEL 4
Class Selected: Sorcerer (Sorcerer 4)
Abilities Raised: CHA: 20
Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +1 (3), Concentration +1 (7)
Enhancements Selected: Frost Manipulation II, Sorcerer Subtle Spellcasting I, Flame Manipulation II

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LEVEL 5
Class Selected: Sorcerer (Sorcerer 5)
Skills Ranks Raised: Concentration +1 (8), UMD +1 (4)
Enhancements Selected: Human Adaptability Constitution I, Glacial Spellcasting II, Sorcerer Energy of the Dragonblooded II

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LEVEL 6
Class Selected: Sorcerer (Sorcerer 6)
Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +1 (4), Concentration +1 (9)
Feats Selected: Maximize Spell
Enhancements Selected: Frost Manipulation III, Deadly Ice II, Racial Toughness II

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LEVEL 7
Class Selected: Sorcerer (Sorcerer 7)
Skills Ranks Raised: Concentration +1 (10), UMD +1 (5)
Enhancements Selected: Sorcerer Water Savant I

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LEVEL 8
Class Selected: Sorcerer (Sorcerer 8)
Abilities Raised: CHA: 21
Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +1 (5), Concentration +1 (11)
Enhancements Selected: Sorcerer Improved Maximizing I, Glacial Spellcasting III, Flame Manipulation III

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LEVEL 9
Class Selected: Sorcerer (Sorcerer 9)
Skills Ranks Raised: Concentration +1 (12), UMD +1 (6)
Feats Selected: Spell Focus (Necromancy)
Enhancements Selected: Racial Toughness III, Frost Manipulation IV

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LEVEL 10
Class Selected: Sorcerer (Sorcerer 10)
Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +1 (6), Concentration +1 (13)
Enhancements Selected: Deadly Ice III, Frost Manipulation V, Sorcerer Wand and Scroll Mastery II

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LEVEL 11
Class Selected: Sorcerer (Sorcerer 11)
Skills Ranks Raised: Concentration +1 (14), UMD +1 (7)
Enhancements Selected: Sorcerer Charisma II

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LEVEL 12
Class Selected: Sorcerer (Sorcerer 12)
Abilities Raised: CHA: 23
Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +1 (7), Concentration +1 (15)
Feats Selected: Spell Focus (Evocation)
Enhancements Selected: Acid Manipulation II, Frost Manipulation VI
Water Savant II

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LEVEL 13
Class Selected: Sorcerer (Sorcerer 13)
Skills Ranks Raised: Concentration +1 (16), UMD +1 (8)
Enhancements Selected: Glacial Spellcasting IV, Deadly Ice IV, Frost Manipulation VII

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LEVEL 14
Class Selected: Sorcerer (Sorcerer 14)
Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +1 (8), Concentration +1 (17)
Enhancements Selected: Sorcerer Improved Maximizing II, Glacial Spellcasting V

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LEVEL 15
Class Selected: Sorcerer (Sorcerer 15)
Skills Ranks Raised: Concentration +1 (18), UMD +1 (9)
Feats Selected: Greater Spell Focus (Necromancy)
Enhancements Selected: Deadly Ice V, Sorcerer Spell Penetration I

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LEVEL 16
Class Selected: Sorcerer (Sorcerer 16)
Abilities Raised: CHA: 24
Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +1 (9), Concentration +1 (19)
Enhancements Selected: Sorcerer Spell Penetration II

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LEVEL 17
Class Selected: Sorcerer (Sorcerer 17)
Skills Ranks Raised: Concentration +1 (20), UMD +1 (10)
Enhancements Selected: Human Greater Adaptability Charisma I

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LEVEL 18
Class Selected: Sorcerer (Sorcerer 18)
Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +1 (10), Concentration +1 (21)
Feats Selected: Empower Spell
Enhancements Selected: Storm Manipulation I, Force Manipulation I, Storm Manipulation II
Water Savant III

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LEVEL 19
Class Selected: Sorcerer (Sorcerer 19)
Skills Ranks Raised: Concentration +1 (22), UMD +1 (11)
Enhancements Selected: Human Improved Recovery II

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LEVEL 20
Class Selected: Sorcerer (Sorcerer 20)
Abilities Raised: CHA: 26
Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +1 (11), Concentration +1 (23)
Enhancements Selected: Storm Manipulation III, Sorcerer Bloodline of Power, Force Manipulation II

At 20th, change force of personality to Heighten spell. Keep empower, maximise, and heighten on all SLA's (R click on SLA and set as always on).

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Advice appreciated. For some reason the build calculator I used never gave me the option of WS II and III. So, I put them in as I planned. I'd appreciate checking those to be sure I didn't miss anything. For some reason the calc'd Chr on this build is less than my current (36) despite same race, plan, gear, etc. *shrug*

I know force of personality feat seems odd, but I like it. On my current build I have never failed a will save since taking it.

Taking fire enhancements may also seem odd, but I find at lower levels it is valuable (fire wall, scortching ray) in places like Delara's. So, I like to keep it.

[AtomicMew]

Calculate the DC's you can reach. Calculate your spell penetration. Show us how much HP you'll end up with. Show us what gear you plan on using. A build is more than the 0.0001% of your time you spend talking with the class trainer.

[masterblaster-1]

Calculate the DC's you can reach. Calculate your spell penetration. Show us how much HP you'll end up with. Show us what gear you plan on using. A build is more than the 0.0001% of your time you spend talking with the class trainer.

D/C for wail should be 33 w/o any gear. Spell penetration should be base of 22. HP should be around 320. SP around 2500.
I have basically no great gear yet, but do have one item for +20 stackable HP (a necklace I don't recall the name). I have a nice named ring with 175 SP. I have a pair of wands with +3 spell pen for lvl 7 or lower, and +40% damage for all spells lvl 7 or less.

I need much better gear..............

[JasonJi72]

I would suggest dropping Extend and Force of Personality in favor of Empower and Spell Penetration.

You will not be as good as Wizards with your instakill spells, but your Horrid Whilting will be very strong, and death spells will be an option. Just make sure you debuff first.

I think this build has potential, but it would be better with some wizard past lives.

[JasonJi72]

D/C for wail should be 33 w/o any gear. Spell penetration should be base of 22. HP should be around 320. SP around 2500.
I have basically no great gear yet, but do have one item for +20 stackable HP (a necklace I don't recall the name). I have a nice named ring with 175 SP. I have a pair of wands with +3 spell pen for lvl 7 or lower, and +40% damage for all spells lvl 7 or less.

I need much better gear..............

The gear will come, and enhancements can always be reset. Stats, race, class, and feats determine a build. Gear and enhancements are usually in a state of 'flux'. You will always use the best gear you can while striving to improve your options.

You are not gimping yourself horibly by focusing in necromancy. Fire savant is good for leveling, and you can respec for water later. You will need a blood of the dragons though.

You will still be a Nuker; just with some Necro options. Personally, I would go with enchantment, but that's just me.

[wax_on_wax_off]

I'd say not to worry about necromancy until you have 1-3 wizard past lives and some gear to back it up. My experience with my human sorcerer is that my necromancy spells work just fine with normal shroud with a +2 necromancy item but in any challenging content (elite/epic end game) I stick to what I do best - blasting and debuffing.

The feat list that I went with is:
Maximise, Empower, Extend, Heighten, Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, Spell Focus: Conjuration, Toughness.

The choice between Conjuration and Evocation is quite subjective and Conjuration is just there as previously the character was an Earth Savant (still nice for web and frost ray).

Extend is the only really optional feat here. Spell Focus: Enchantment or Necromancy, Greater Spell Focus: Conjuration or Evocation or a number of other feats could go here but I'll stick with extend as its an easy way to curry favour with groups (though I'm so lazy with haste/rage anyway).

Spell Penetration with the above feats and 2-3 ranks in the enhancement and moderate gear is not enough (particularly for necromancy spells). I'll look forward to adding 3 wizard past lives so I can drop the 2 feats (for spell focus/greater spell focus: necromancy) and still have +2 spell penetration overall (which is needed).

30 spell penetration on ALL spells is a good number to aim for, more is better (due to epic drow which I imagine will feature quite prominently in upcoming content).

[JasonJi72]

I agree with Wax. That is why I would focus on ehchantment if I were to try something like this. The dancing ball is persistent and who cares if a mass charm only hits one or two (you kinda want that), because they will draw aggro and buy the party time.

Epic Drow in the new content could be quite nasty. High reflex, evasion, high spell resistance, multiple casters, twf'ers with nasty effects on their weapons, and don't forget that forgoten realms Drow are known to have really nasty poisons/spells on their crossbows. Oh and the serpents whips... omg... we are all going to die... often.

I can't wait!

Well, I guess I can wait a little bit, since I will be making a Druid the second they are finally released.

[tinyelvis]

A necro specialized sorcerer is certainly doable but it requires a lot of game knowledge, loot, and experience to pull off. You need to approach mid 40s in DC and mid 30s in spell pen to perform reliably.

Try to make enchantment work for you first (a smaller challenge). Then move on to necro.

[wax_on_wax_off]

A necro specialized sorcerer is certainly doable but it requires a lot of game knowledge, loot, and experience to pull off. You need to approach mid 40s in DC and mid 30s in spell pen to perform reliably.

Try to make enchantment work for you first (a smaller challenge). Then move on to necro.

Better to start with conjuration, web is so full of win.

[masterblaster-1]

Extend is the only really optional feat here. Spell Focus: Enchantment or Necromancy, Greater Spell Focus: Conjuration or Evocation or a number of other feats could go here but I'll stick with extend as its an easy way to curry favour with groups (though I'm so lazy with haste/rage anyway).

See, I'm the same. I'm usually either to lazy, or to dense to realize I need to recast haste, etc. I find it is just better for me to cast it once before a fight, and then all I need to worry about (generally) is fighting.

The feat list that I went with is:
Maximise, Empower, Extend, Heighten, Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, Spell Focus: Conjuration, Toughness.

Now see, this one confuses me. If a caster has both these active, do they stack? In other words. will the spells do 100% of 150% damage every time?

Also, a question on increasing damage with enhancements and items. If a caster has, lets say, 50% enhancement in fire damage, and an item that does 50% extra damage on spells what happens? Do they add together, then apply, or apply separately?
For example.........
1) Add....
Spell does 100 damage.
50% + 50% = 100%
100 damage x 100% = 100 more damage (100+100=200 total damage)
-----or-----
2) Separate......
Spell does 100 damage.
100 x 50% = 50 (100+50=150)
150 x 50% = 75 (150+75=225 total damage)

[AtomicMew]

A 33 wail and 22 spell pen is not viable. In the places where those numbers would work, you're better off just blasting things with otiluke's sphere. You need to have at least high 30's DC and high 20's spell pen to even consider using necro spells anywhere.

[wax_on_wax_off]

See, I'm the same. I'm usually either to lazy, or to dense to realize I need to recast haste, etc. I find it is just better for me to cast it once before a fight, and then all I need to worry about (generally) is fighting.

Now see, this one confuses me. If a caster has both these active, do they stack? In other words. will the spells do 100% of 150% damage every time?

Also, a question on increasing damage with enhancements and items. If a caster has, lets say, 50% enhancement in fire damage, and an item that does 50% extra damage on spells what happens? Do they add together, then apply, or apply separately?
For example.........
1) Add....
Spell does 100 damage.
50% + 50% = 100%
100 damage x 100% = 100 more damage (100+100=200 total damage)
-----or-----
2) Separate......
Spell does 100 damage.
100 x 50% = 50 (100+50=150)
150 x 50% = 75 (150+75=225 total damage)

Formula is on DDOwiki I bet, searchfu is your friend.

But, because you're lazy;

Base*(enhancements+item effects)*(maximise+empower+capstone)=total

[masterblaster-1]

Formula is on DDOwiki I bet, searchfu is your friend.

But, because you're lazy;

Base*(enhancements+item effects)*(maximise+empower+capstone)=total

OK, so then both maximise and empower can be in effect at the same time then? If so, then the damage will be 150% with each casting when both active. Still, to me that seems very costly in terms of spell points. How many folks use the two togather? Seems like you would burn through SP way too fast, even on quick fights.
As far as the crappy D/C for wail, I find that currently in some areas (like Cannith quests) I'm able to insta kill some mobs. Certainly
I'm not at my vision of insta killing most things, then nuking the rest, but even if I kill one of 3 or 4, it's one less to worry about. *shrug* I hope to put in 3 past lives of wizard in the future to really reach the potential of this plan, but for now I'll have to take
what I can get. If anyone see's anything to help, I'd appreciate it. Is force of will a good idea to keep, or maybe swap that for
greater nerco at 20th?

[masterblaster-1]

Quick update. Some great folks helped me out today and now I have a couple nice peices of gear from Cannith area. One is the goggles which gives me +2 spell pen for all spells. So, spell pen now 24. That frees up a wand, so I'm looking for a necro wand. I used to have a +2 D/C one, but lost it..... If I can find the same type wand, that'll give me wail D/C of 35.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Quick update. Some great folks helped me out today and now I have a couple nice peices of gear from Cannith area. One is the goggles which gives me +2 spell pen for all spells. So, spell pen now 24. That frees up a wand, so I'm looking for a necro wand. I used to have a +2 D/C one, but lost it..... If I can find the same type wand, that'll give me wail D/C of 35.

My sorcerer has a DC of 10+9+2+16=37 on necro which is fine for normal shroud but doesn't compare to the DC 43 on my palemaster. I wouldn't bother with necro unless I had ~DC 40 and 30 spell pen. To get that I'll do 3 wizard past lives. Until then I'll use disco ball, web and evocation/conjuration DPS spells which is the best way to be useful, IMO.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Oh and to see what metamagics can apply to what spell just read the spell description. All spells than an have maximise applied to them can also have empower applied to them simultaneously. Many spells will have better SP:damage ratio if all appropriate metamagics are applied (mainly heighten, maximise and empower) but there are entire threads on the topic, just exercise some searchfu. Importantly, metamagics can be applied for free to SLA's making it crucial to have the 3 feats (max/emp/heighten). Make sure you right click on the spells and click "always on" on the spell.

[Mackem]

My sorcerer has a DC of 10+9+2+16=37 on necro which is fine for normal shroud but doesn't compare to the DC 43 on my palemaster. I wouldn't bother with necro unless I had ~DC 40 and 30 spell pen. To get that I'll do 3 wizard past lives..

This.

I happen to have a lvl 18 WF sorc in progress with 3x wiz PL, 1x clr PL and 1x sorc PL and at lvl 18 right now he has a necro DC of 37 (with +2 item, +3 exceptional, SF:necro, GSF:necro and ship buffs). Necro DC will be around 40 at lvl 20 with +7 item, +3 tome and yugo pots but still short of what you can get on a wizard. You can get necro DC even higher to 42-ish if you are a human and have rare things like +4 tome/Littany but it's unlikely that I get those in any forseeable future.

37 necro DC is somewhat OK at 18 for places like Vale, IQ and Reaver's and obviously not enough for Amrath, I personally took the necro just because it seems to be easier to level with it and faster to cap the character. If I intended to play this sorc at 20 and not TR immediately again, I would likely go conj instead.

[masterblaster-1]

Oh and to see what metamagics can apply to what spell just read the spell description. All spells than an have maximise applied to them can also have empower applied to them simultaneously. Many spells will have better SP:damage ratio if all appropriate metamagics are applied (mainly heighten, maximise and empower) but there are entire threads on the topic, just exercise some searchfu. Importantly, metamagics can be applied for free to SLA's making it crucial to have the 3 feats (max/emp/heighten). Make sure you right click on the spells and click "always on" on the spell.

Very helpful. Thankyou. I've adjusted my build to replace heighten with empower since I'll be doing more nuking than insta death stuff. I checked my build on the standard build planner, and found out it works as planned (all savant picks as planned).

This build has improved max II, and I have an improved empower II item, so that will help.

I want to thank everyone for your fantastic insites. I feel much better coming into this TR now.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Very helpful. Thankyou. I've adjusted my build to replace heighten with empower since I'll be doing more nuking than insta death stuff. I checked my build on the standard build planner, and found out it works as planned (all savant picks as planned).

I want to thank everyone for your fantastic insites. I feel much better coming into this TR now.

Definitely keep heighten. It applies to your SLA's for free so makes it much less likely that enemies will save for 0 or half damage. I'd look back at my suggested feat list for ideas. Necromancy feats are pretty useless without heighten unless you only ever plan to use wail (which has a very long cooldown).

[masterblaster-1]

TY wax, adjusted build to reflect the SLA free meta magic options by dropping force of personality for heighten spell at 20th. Hopefully loosing the extra will saves won't hurt.