Does Pally DPS suck or is it just me?

[elraido]

Funny you should bring that up.

Was just discussing this with another long time player yesterday. I haven't played one in recent years.

Back in the day...Paladins really and I mean really sucked at DPS, bottom of the barrel.
I remember when it was hard for Paladins to get into Shroud runs.

2 Paladins in a group, BAM! closed to Paladins.

It tainted my opinion of Paladins and I can't play one now.
Loved playing them in PnP though.

I also remember when paladins were basically the top tier damage dealers because of divine favor being +5 to hit and +5 to damage. They had to nerf it down because people were complaining it was overpowering....and now people are yelling to bring it back.

[DragonMageT]

I also remember when paladins were basically the top tier damage dealers because of divine favor being +5 to hit and +5 to damage. They had to nerf it down because people were complaining it was overpowering....and now people are yelling to bring it back.

True, but Paladins have sucked at DPS far longer than they have been overpowered

[Captain_Wizbang]

I've hit the level 18 wall on my 36-point TR and it's my first pally. KoTC right now, done with vale so fighting a bunch of non-EOs right now and I must say . . .

her DPS sucks.

Sucks hard.

If her DPS sucked any harder it'd put it on the street corner and tell it to make me money.

I mean it was fine against EOs, but you don't fight that many EOs after Vale before Amrath. When streaking elites to get the most XP possible I've absolutely hit a wall at 18.

Don't get me wrong, the survivability is extremely nice with the great AC and saves, plus self healing that's saved her ass a lot. She's died 3 times in a life that's been nothing but complete maniacal zerging since she's hit Korthos.

But damage wise (against non-EOs at least) if she didn't have dual icy-burst +5/+3 WOP rapiers and good Greensteels she'd be absolutely piking.

And please keep in mind my point of reference . . . I do not have a single max-DPS-tard in my stable.

Excaulted Smites? these are a joke right? Sure it's cool WHEN you triple-proc a crit but all the other times it adds so little damage it's not worth pressing the button.

Divine sacrifice is good, very nice actually but that cooldown is too long to be of much use.

The Divine might activation time is so long I don’t bother to use. That is so stupid, it should be a fast boost like Power Surge.

Divine Favor and Zeal are good.

Is it really this bad?

I havent even read it, and im laughing my arse off. Ill go read it now.
+ 1 bud

[elraido]

True, but Paladins have sucked at DPS far longer than they have been overpowered

True....how long ago was the level cap at 10?

It is true paladins do have a short end of the stick. Not enough ability points, skill points, enhancement points, lackluster dps. A bone would be nice.

[Dark-Star]

Yes relatively it is behind.

You are 18 right? Grab a Terror and use the inherent strengths of the class, Zeal.

[Meat-Head]

I was gonna suggest DoS too.

And I agree that divine might is annoying because of the cast time and short duration, however, complaining about DPS when actively leaving possibly 6 damage(x1.8) per hit off yourself?

I'd love it if DM was made longer lasting or quicker casting, but the opportunity for it is when you moving from one baddy to another, as it doesnt slow run speed like your spells do.

Uh.. THIS. If you're not using DM on a pally, ESPECIALLY when TWF, then you are doing it wrong.

That being said, DM needs to have much faster cast time. Also, they need a lot of buffs in general. Smites should be auto-crit for one. They should also regen a lot faster-- esp on KoTC.

I think we'll see some love this summer though. Probably gonna make a big difference.

[QuantumFX]

OP: No, it’s not your imagination. I’m currently in Paladin incarnation hell on 2 characters and the only reason I’m plugging away on the current character is that Turbine *will not* keep me from getting him to an Artificer incarnation.

I wish I had more time to fill my list out. But RL is hitting me hard ATM:

Smites/Divine Sacrifices suck because they bring a paladin up to the level of a fighter or barb for 1 swing every few seconds. The constant rebuffing cycle blows. The survivability is not worth the DPS tradeoffs.

[grodon9999]

I also remember when paladins were basically the top tier damage dealers because of divine favor being +5 to hit and +5 to damage. They had to nerf it down because people were complaining it was overpowering....and now people are yelling to bring it back.

+5 to-hit/damage for DF wouls SO not be OP it's not funny.

[grodon9999]

True....how long ago was the level cap at 10?

It is true paladins do have a short end of the stick. Not enough ability points, skill points, enhancement points, lackluster dps. A bone would be nice.

Going from observation they seem to be great in the tanking aspect of things, but their DPS PRE(s) needs love. even of KoTC damage affected everything evil and not just EOs it'd be far from OP.

[Sarisa]

+5 to-hit/damage for DF wouls SO not be OP it's not funny.

My Cleric would approve as well. Two more to-hit to help land debuffing weapon procs.

[AylinIsAwesome]

True....how long ago was the level cap at 10?

It is true paladins do have a short end of the stick. Not enough ability points, skill points, enhancement points, lackluster dps. A bone would be nice.

Some things I think would help:

Improved Divine Grace (or some other name):
Granted Feat at level 12:
A character with this feat adds half of her/his CHA mod to her/his attack bonus.

Divine Might Changes:
This ability lasts 60 seconds plus 6 seconds per CHA Mod.

Some changes to KotC: (the DPS PrE needs to actually damage more than just EOs, though focusing on EOs is fine)
KotC 1: 1d6 to EO
KotC 2: 1d6 to EO, additional 1d6 to all Evil
KotC 3: 2d6 to EO, additional 2d6 to all Evil
Change Lorinthor's set to 2d6 to EO, 1d6 to all Evil

Some changes to HotD: (I see this one as more of a survivability and support PrE, since the other 2 are already DPS and defense. The suggestions below are to give it the most DPS against Undead that a Paladin would do, some minor DPS to anything, and then several abilities that increase the Paladin's own survivability and the survivability of the Paladin's companions.)
HotD 1: 1d8 to Undead. Gain 10% Healing Amp, other characters in aura gain 5% Healing Amp.
HotD 2: 1d8 to Undead, 1d8 to any enemy. Gain 20% Healing Amp, other characters in aura gain 10% Healing Amp (replaces HotD 1 bonus). You may expend a use of Lay on Hands to return an ally to life at 10% HP.
HotD 3: 2d8 to Undead, 1d8 to any enemy. Gain 30% Healing Amp, other characters in aura gain 15% Healing Amp (replaces HotD2 bonus). You may expend a use of Lay on Hands to return an ally to life with 50% HP.

The Remove Disease attempt stuff should remain as well.

Remove the Paladin Redemption Line (merge it with HotD).


My goal with HotD was to make it appealing to level 20 characters. I think that some minor damage to all enemies, the healing amp buff to the party, and the ability to easily resurrect allies will it more competitive with KotC and DoS.

The 1/2 CHA Mod to attack rolls is to give some more benefit to high CHA besides "this +6 CHA item gives me +3 saves, but I already save on a 2...", and to help out Paladin to-hit in Epic quests, since Paladins don't have the bonuses that Fighters get (bonuses to attack in feats and enhancements, higher STR), Barbarians (massively higher STR), and Monks get (no dual-wielding penalty) currently.

KotC changes is to make it not suck against everything other than EOs.

[Dartwick]

Im 17 now and built for damage - I am seriously underwhelmed.

And the long cast animation for divine might is beyond stupid.


The damage against EOs is good but nothing special - the damage against everything else sucks.

[CanuckWisdom]

I must need to finish leveling my fighter. I think my pally dps is good. I could see how a fighter or barb could be better, but then they dont have the saves or heals, so thats okay.

Smites/Divine Sacrifices suck because they bring a paladin up to the level of a fighter or barb for 1 swing every few seconds.

Literally? DS 2 gives an average of +25 dmg x2 if twf. On top of average 38 base dmg per hit at lvl 14, 25 from DS makes 63 dmg before procs. Other melee do this consistently with one handed weapons?

I feel like there is something Im missing. Or my fighters suck and my pally is really good. This is possible as I care way more about my pally than my other toons, just my fav. I dont have a direct comparison, i.e. a lvl 14 twf fighter.

[goodspeed]

I never played a pally but Ive grouped with em sometimes (very rarely.) I remember one was with me in tear and he wanted the past life so he was grinding it out. He said hands down he hated the class. It was a nightmare to grind.

So I just never rolled one. Maybe if AC and heavy armor actually mattered and you could be like this iron wall and shrug off blows from ogres for 5 hp then I would maybe go it while splashing a lil. But as ddo seems to ignore all those things and dmg reigns nearly supreme, I doubt I ever will.

Sucks to cause pallys are usually really amazing and fun to play. I loved playing em in other games especially ffxi. I mean you were just hands down the tank trading blow for blow with the enemy while the others stood behind you.

[countfitz]

Paladins are all about first life noob survivability. They get all the cool abilities that other classes need to learn about getting pots for. They get DR breakers then a DR breaking capstone other classes have to pay out the ... for. They get great saves so they don't have to worry about all that stuff. And since they aren't "good" at anything nobody ever calls on them to do anything except not contribute to -10%.

Once you start playing and get good though, everything they do is really outclassed by gear, knowledge and ability.

I love them, and ALWAYS suggest them to new players to get them to understand the importance of all their class abilities, so they appreciate them, and will go buy pots and DR breakers on their subsequent toons. But yeah, otherwise...

[Mrphish]

well i just finished my pally life on my main... and as much as i did enjoy it and thought ti was fun but i could think of a bunch of other classes/build combo's that do it much better. i didn't have much trouble fighting EO's that everyone else seem's to fo expirenced... but then again i've never played a barb/fighter... so that probably made it seem not quite as bad? i dunno.

however i think the problem is, people think when they roll up a pally for dps they think that they are making a class that can dps as good as a fighter but with self healing which sadly isn't the case. the problem i personally found with the pally is... he brought next to nothing to the group (i hate only being able to just bring dps to the table, which is why i hate the barb class so much) other then the aura. no real buffs, couldn't reliably scroll heal without gear... and i hated this, hated it sooooooo much it drove me insane.... infact i hated this even more then i hated the cast time on DM (dont even get me started on that ****.) and because of this the day i capped i TR'd into a rogue... problem solved, i can do everything i wanted to as a pally... but better.

[CanuckWisdom]

^^ I feel like without a good understanding of ddo a paladin is difficult, not to play, but to build.

[Rizzia]

Some things I think would help:

Improved Divine Grace (or some other name):
Granted Feat at level 12:
A character with this feat adds half of her/his CHA mod to her/his attack bonus.

Divine Might Changes:
This ability lasts 60 seconds plus 6 seconds per CHA Mod.

Some changes to KotC: (the DPS PrE needs to actually damage more than just EOs, though focusing on EOs is fine)
KotC 1: 1d6 to EO
KotC 2: 1d6 to EO, additional 1d6 to all Evil
KotC 3: 2d6 to EO, additional 2d6 to all Evil
Change Lorinthor's set to 2d6 to EO, 1d6 to all Evil

Some changes to HotD: (I see this one as more of a survivability and support PrE, since the other 2 are already DPS and defense. The suggestions below are to give it the most DPS against Undead that a Paladin would do, some minor DPS to anything, and then several abilities that increase the Paladin's own survivability and the survivability of the Paladin's companions.)
HotD 1: 1d8 to Undead. Gain 10% Healing Amp, other characters in aura gain 5% Healing Amp.
HotD 2: 1d8 to Undead, 1d8 to any enemy. Gain 20% Healing Amp, other characters in aura gain 10% Healing Amp (replaces HotD 1 bonus). You may expend a use of Lay on Hands to return an ally to life at 10% HP.
HotD 3: 2d8 to Undead, 1d8 to any enemy. Gain 30% Healing Amp, other characters in aura gain 15% Healing Amp (replaces HotD2 bonus). You may expend a use of Lay on Hands to return an ally to life with 50% HP.

The Remove Disease attempt stuff should remain as well.

Remove the Paladin Redemption Line (merge it with HotD).


My goal with HotD was to make it appealing to level 20 characters. I think that some minor damage to all enemies, the healing amp buff to the party, and the ability to easily resurrect allies will it more competitive with KotC and DoS.

The 1/2 CHA Mod to attack rolls is to give some more benefit to high CHA besides "this +6 CHA item gives me +3 saves, but I already save on a 2...", and to help out Paladin to-hit in Epic quests, since Paladins don't have the bonuses that Fighters get (bonuses to attack in feats and enhancements, higher STR), Barbarians (massively higher STR), and Monks get (no dual-wielding penalty) currently.

KotC changes is to make it not suck against everything other than EOs.

I like the idea of CHA adding to attack bonus, would help people who strive for DM4 (or just make DM give attack and damage bonus^^).

Merging the redemption line with HotD I'd say no, I know APs are tight but I used to have a TWF KotC with redemption. A bigger boon to give HotD would be regenerating LoH, so if they take redemption they are more likely to use it. And the disruption they get at 18 atm is laughable (I had hoped epic disruptor would be HotDs playground, I was wrong).

Tbh I think alot of why Paladins dont fare as well is mostly alignment based. There aint much in the way of chaotic mobs/raid bosses (adq and ?) and too much of the decent gear is opposite aligned. Dynastic falacata should rival the chaosblade (and it should also be cold iron not adamantine), but it seems more of a bard weapon. I'd love to get the dual ecbs and emarailth chain and tr back to pally, but the stacking minus to hit with paladins allready dodgy to hit, is woeful.

[Clayness]

They should take a hard look at Paladins in the Pathfinder system (sometimes called D&D 3.75) if they wanted ideas how to improve Paladins. Paladins in 3.75 are friggin badass. Let me find a few of their more potent abilities.

Smite Evil (Su)

Once per day, a paladin can call out to the powers of good to aid her in her struggle against evil. As a swift action, the paladin chooses one target within sight to smite. If this target is evil, the paladin adds her Cha bonus (if any) to her attack rolls and adds her paladin level to all damage rolls made against the target of her smite. If the target of smite evil is an outsider with the evil subtype, an evil-aligned dragon, or an undead creature, the bonus to damage on the first successful attack increases to 2 points of damage per level the paladin possesses. Regardless of the target, smite evil attacks automatically bypass any DR the creature might possess.

In addition, while smite evil is in effect, the paladin gains a deflection bonus equal to her Charisma modifier (if any) to her AC against attacks made by the target of the smite. If the paladin targets a creature that is not evil, the smite is wasted with no effect.

The smite evil effect remains until the target of the smite is dead or the next time the paladin rests and regains her uses of this ability. At 4th level, and at every three levels thereafter, the paladin may smite evil one additional time per day, as indicated on Table: Paladin, to a maximum of seven times per day at 19th level.

Aura of Resolve (Su)

At 8th level, a paladin is immune to charm spells and spell-like abilities. Each ally within 10 feet of her gains a +4 morale bonus on saving throws against charm effects.

This ability functions only while the paladin is conscious, not if she is unconscious or dead.

Aura of Justice (Su)

At 11th level, a paladin can expend two uses of her smite evil ability to grant the ability to smite evil to all allies within 10 feet, using her bonuses. Allies must use this smite evil ability by the start of the paladin's next turn and the bonuses last for 1 minute. Using this ability is a free action. Evil creatures gain no benefit from this ability.

Aura of Faith (Su)

At 14th level, a paladin's weapons are treated as good-aligned for the purposes of overcoming Damage Reduction. Any attack made against an enemy within 10 feet of her is treated as good-aligned for the purposes of overcoming Damage Reduction.

This ability functions only while the paladin is conscious, not if she is unconscious or dead.

Aura of Righteousness (Su)

At 17th level, a paladin gains DR 5/evil and immunity to compulsion spells and spell-like abilities. Each ally within 10 feet of her gains a +4 morale bonus on saving throws against compulsion effects.

This ability functions only while the paladin is conscious, not if she is unconscious or dead.

Holy Champion (Su)

At 20th level, a paladin becomes a conduit for the power of her god. Her DR increases to 10/evil. Whenever she uses smite evil and successfully strikes an evil outsider, the outsider is also subject to a banishment, using her paladin level as the caster level (her weapon and holy symbol automatically count as objects that the subject hates). After the banishment effect and the damage from the attack is resolved, the smite immediately ends. In addition, whenever she channels positive energy or uses lay on hands to heal a creature, she heals the maximum possible amount.


Thats some of the abilities of paladins in 3.75, and they're friggin nasty. I mean, when you smite, you get all the smite bonuses until the target or the paladin is dead? And the ability to expend a smite to give smites to all allies in the aura of the paladin? And DR? And the ability of all near the paladin to bypass good DR for free? ****, now paladins suddenly don't look so bad at all.

[Riggs]

Yeah.

Anything called a 'knight' of anything should have base damage bonuses of some type - AND a bonus against evil outsiders.