Sorcerer CC?

[Candela90]

I know its possible to make human/drow CCer for sure.
But what with WF?
Is this impossible at all?

Charisma:
16 base
+5 lvl up
+2 ship buff
+ 3 enhancements
+4 tome
+7 item
+3 exceptional (ToD ring)
+ 2 yugo pot
eventually +1 litany, but its not going to give more DC...
___________
so 42 charisma/43 with litany
Charisma mod: 16.

Feats:
Tougness
Extend
Maximize
Heighen
Spell Focus: Evo (for savant)
1x Wizzy Past Life.
1x Bard Past Life

So DC would be:
10 base
+ 9 spell lvl
+ 16 charisma mod
+ 1 wizzy past life
+ 1 Bard Past Life
+ 2 Greater Spell Focus item
______________________
That would be only 39. If u drop extend for spell focus ench. feat it would give 40 (on enchantment, cause cojuration/evocation u can pull higher with clerics/sorcerers past lifes).

But still... i heard that for epic u need 42 to land most of CC spells. And on 40 u will mostly need to weaken your enemies saves first, or fail. Is it true?

Without any 1-3 minute pots(as alchemical), bard buffs, i guess its impossible for WF sorcerer to have heigher DC Or did i missed sth?
Cause yeah, u can drop maximize too... but as dropping extend is still worht it, dropping maximize is not, sadly.
I say without short effects amnd bards buffs, cause u dont always have a bard in team, and drinking pot every 3 minute, or purchuasing it in DDOStore every time... both not fun.

So my question is: will 40 land on epics besides carnival? And is there any room for improve in this case enchantment DC?

Cause it would be really great if it can be done. I mean e.g. air savant. Unknockable, nuker, CC, self-healing WF, with fast casting and big pool of mana. Eventually im thinking about water savant, cause there are a lot good water spells.

The same build on human will have 43 DC on enchantment, and UMD for scrolls, but... u know scrolls and quick repair are not the same. and as my main is divine i like to have quick self heal.

I guess only extend can be dropped and also not easily. But maximize, toughness, spell focus: evo and heighen are a must have, so... spell focus feats are not suitable here.

[goodspeed]

couple places that discussed that were

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=353324

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=352487

In those various gear as well as feat arrangements and even savants were discussed about getting good dc's for epics.

[Jaid314]

it really depends on the epic. epic house P? you'll have no problems.

epic chronoscope? you'll do pretty good right up until the end fight, in my experience, when the trash will begin to be unmanageable. having debuffs available can help, but only so much.

epic red fens or epic house D, should work quite well (except of course for drow, but that's because of SR not because of saves necessarily).

haven't tried DC 39 in epic desert, but given that used to be the expected amount before archmage and pale master got so much higher DCs, should be doable. of course, that all depends; there is a very large difference between "possible" and "possible with a bunch of PuG melees that need you to solo the quest for them".

[Gurei]

Swap out your evocation spell focus for conjuration, go earth savant and you can hit 45 dc's on webs (sf conj substitutes your bard PL to keep the dc 39, then +6 for earth savant lvls), and then you can use your enchanting cc on those high strength brutish mobs with no will save. Hope this helps with your wf sorc CC goal

[DrNuegebauer]

No offense, but if you're making a sorc WITHOUT empower then you need your head read

No attempt at getting CC should stop you from a nuke focus!

[Jaid314]

Swap out your evocation spell focus for conjuration, go earth savant and you can hit 45 dc's on webs (sf conj substitutes your bard PL to keep the dc 39, then +6 for earth savant lvls), and then you can use your enchanting cc on those high strength brutish mobs with no will save. Hope this helps with your wf sorc CC goal

caster level is not DC. this advice is terrible, and should be ignored; it doesn't work.

(a more logical response would have been to suggest 3 cleric past life feats, which actually would help... however, i tend to operate under the assumption that you don't want to add 3 more past lifes to your build, or else you would probably have mentioned that as your plan right from the start).

[Enoach]

Keep in mind its not that Warforged Sorcerers can't be good at crowd control spells -its that they start at a disadvantage over their Wizard Brethren.

• Warforged Starting Charisma Max's at 16 for the same point cost of 18
• Sorcerers have fewer spells to use - Can't switch out to maximize crowd control per content
• Sorcerers have fewer feats

However, outside of these disadvantages there is nothing else stopping them as they still have the Spell Point Advantage.

Based on what I see you have already set yourself up to Eliminate the minus DC issue by having both the Wizard and Bard Past Life Feats - This does cut into your limited feat supply, but gives you +1 To all DCs as well as +2 Total for Enchantment.

Spell limitations means you have to be picky - That is all

Well Feats were always tight on a Sorcerer, with your choice of going with both Past Life Feats and Heighten you are now limited to 4 Feats to enhance your Savant Abilities.

Spell Focus (Evo) - Required for Savant
Maximize - Sorcerer's Big Stick
Toughness is always a good investment

Extend - Might consider this on a chopping block possibly put Empower here instead. Extend is great at lower levels and for Short Term Buffs. But as you level it has a considerable diminished return on the Feat investment.

[Candela90]

No offense, but if you're making a sorc WITHOUT empower then you need your head read

No attempt at getting CC should stop you from a nuke focus!

I just dont find empower that usefull. Nor on my wizzy, nor on my fvs. I prefer maximize and go (and i can get it free with an epic dagger for some time).
U probably would say that if mu fvs dont have empower/empower healing its bad. But it match my play-style. I heal epics good without emp. healing, and kill good without empower.



Thank all for responses.
Spells are not a problem, i had all planned (all air+water+some necro+CC like web, mass hold, irrestible dance). Im still wary about landing of these spells with 40 DC.

About Extend - I just find it usefull for haste/rage/displacement and even with tight spell choice i wouldnt skip these spells.

[Cardtrick]

I just dont find empower that usefull. Nor on my wizzy, nor on my fvs. I prefer maximize and go (and i can get it free with an epic dagger for some time).
U probably would say that if mu fvs dont have empower/empower healing its bad. But it match my play-style. I heal epics good without emp. healing, and kill good without empower.

It's absolutely not the same thing. I mean, yeah, personally I wouldn't build either a favored soul or a wizard without empower, but it's a choice that I can understand.

On a sorcerer, though? Leaving off empower is just needlessly breaking your build. The whole point of a sorcerer is spell damage. Yes, sorcerers can do other things, but that's their focus. A sorcerer without empower is like a wizard with no DC/spell pen boosts, or a favored soul/cleric with no investment in the healing AP lines. Even if you only use Empower for your SLAs, where it costs no additional SP, it's still worth far more than any other feat you could put in that slot.

If you can't bear to part with Extend (which is understandable) or the bard past life, I'm of the opinion that a max-Con warforged sorcerer can get away without Toughness more easily than pretty much any other race/class combination.

[DrNuegebauer]

I just dont find empower that usefull. Nor on my wizzy, nor on my fvs. I prefer maximize and go (and i can get it free with an epic dagger for some time).
U probably would say that if mu fvs dont have empower/empower healing its bad. But it match my play-style. I heal epics good without emp. healing, and kill good without empower.



Thank all for responses.
Spells are not a problem, i had all planned (all air+water+some necro+CC like web, mass hold, irrestible dance). Im still wary about landing of these spells with 40 DC.

About Extend - I just find it usefull for haste/rage/displacement and even with tight spell choice i wouldnt skip these spells.

With all due respect, might I suggest if you won't take empower, don't build a sorc.

You'll just waste a party slot when people wrongly assume that you'll be bringing a max DPS build to the table.

[tinyelvis]

My WF CC is chain lightning, freezing sphere, and/or delayed blast fireball. Sometimes all three chained.

CC is for wizards and poorly built/run melee.

[MRMechMan]

My WF CC is chain lightning, freezing sphere, and/or delayed blast fireball. Sometimes all three chained.

CC is for wizards and poorly built/run melee.

The best crowd control is putting things 6 feet under.

Some situations require more then that, but generally just killing stuff is enough.

Sorcs have enough sp to ED/finger casters, debuff and MHM brutes, earthgrab anything, powerword stun, ottos irresistable dance anything etc for ages and ages.

Can get by with 30 enchant DC in many quests if you play smart and have a good group...or just go solo, you are a sorc. Then dont have to waste sp on CC at all.

[MRMechMan]

I just dont find empower that usefull. Nor on my wizzy, nor on my fvs. I prefer maximize and go (and i can get it free with an epic dagger for some time).
.

Do you build your barbs without power attack, your rogues without trapskills and your bards with zero ranks in perform?

If you take extend (only important for haste and rage really, and sorcs have the sp to rebuff often) over EMPOWER then play a different class, please.

[Qezuzu]

Crushing Despair is a great way for sorcerers to compete with wizards in CCing. My sorcerer, a drow, has 38 DC with enchantment, which is pitiful for higher end epics, but with CD, it's effectively 43/45, depending on whether or not they fail the "main" portion of the spell. It's extremely effective, and I just love casting CD+MHM in eChrono and seeing everything, including the orange names, fail their save.

[arjiwan]

Guys, guys, we need to talk...

Yes I really do agree that empower is needed by sorc for full DPS. Even my cleric has empower.

But seriously, with the waste of spot drama? Really?

He is asking for a valid question, for his/her DC and not DPS feats needed. Please...

I respect the knowledge you guys have, but I pity your "YOU ARE USELESS WITH NO EMPOWER!! DON'T GROUP WITH ME HURRR HURR DERP" attitude.

Sometimes it is not just dps.

[Candela90]

Do you build your barbs without power attack, your rogues without trapskills and your bards with zero ranks in perform?

If you take extend (only important for haste and rage really, and sorcs have the sp to rebuff often) over EMPOWER then play a different class, please.

Nah. everyone can play a class like he/she wants to.
1. I would never roll a barb. Just bleh...
2. Saw rogues with pure dps, no trap skills - str build.
3. 0 in perform is not the same as not taking empower. Its more like i would have 0 in concentration.... Dont compare 2 different things.

For me. If i can have more dmg than wizzard AND good CC, its better for me than have outstanding dmg, and no CC.

Yeha, of course i can do sorcerer as 90% of DDO population and just be a copy of the same build. But Im looking for something for me, exactly, not for others. I like to play characters good at more things than smashing/blowing everything around.
And as i like casters, id like to try to make sorcerer enjoyable for me. Thats all.


Like the guy above, me (btw - im she ) I was asking about DC.

About wasting a spot? Im making this build only for guild runs and solo. I dont pug. Or do it really rarely.
No DPS brining? Yes. I would have lower dps than others sorces. So what? Sorc DPS is still a big deal even without empower.
I feel kinda offended by the "wasting spot" thing. I guess that the person who wrote is a player that thinks everyone around that are not build the same are gimps. I feel bad for ya.

All i asked was if 40 DC will land on epic. And i got peoma about empower.... some people just rocks.
at least there are some people who gave me usefull links and informations. Big thanks for that.

[Darknark]

Note: I didn't bother to read most of the posts, so if this is already answered....

All i asked was if 40 DC will land on epic.

Short answer: Yes, also take "hypnotism" (level 1 spell, 10 sp, -3 to will save on mobs) and cast it right before a mass hold.



Long Answer: You dumped spell pen, and that will prevent effective CC in things like Chrono and DA.

Additional stuff:
- I respectfully disagree with the choice of Extend, and the choice of losing Empower.

-Swapping the Spell focus Evocation for SF: conj. If you feel that the Web DC would be helpful.

-Get spell pen. Without it, your DC's aren't going to matter much in EDA/Chrono

I'd also recommend dropping the bard past life, take Spell Focus Enchant instead (and do a second TR as a wizard instead of a bard - Wizard passive Past life is a stacking +2 to Spell pen, stacks up to three times [+6]) - With this change to your 'plan', you'll have the same DC, and 2 more spell pen (saving a spell pen feat).

[Qezuzu]

Nah. everyone can play a class like he/she wants to.
1. I would never roll a barb. Just bleh...
2. Saw rogues with pure dps, no trap skills - str build.
3. 0 in perform is not the same as not taking empower. Its more like i would have 0 in concentration.... Dont compare 2 different things.

Not to nitpick or anything, but a bard with 0 ranks in perform is unable to use songs: the feats are simply not granted if you don't have the ranks. And no-trap-skills-just-DPS rogues aren't just a bigger mistake than a sorcerer without empower, they're a bigger mistake than a sorcerer10/5clr/5wizard. You certainly won't have as useless a toon, but you'll have a very, very, frowned up build choice. (Seriously. Rogues get 6 skill points MINIMUM, 7 if not HOrc, 8 if drow or human, and even more if you put points into INT. Where the hell would you put them all? That kind of rogue is built by someone with no idea what they're doing.)

As for empower, due to the way items, feats, and enhancements stack, not taking empower is an 18% reduction in spell damage. If you're fine with such a penalty, you might as well take a monk splash for evasion and two toughness feats, and not take the capstone. Or 2 paladin for insane saves. No capstone and no empower is a 26% reduction in spell damage, not factoring in the -2 to caster level.

A monk feat can be filled with a toughness. That would free up a regular feat slot for empower: empower but no capstone is higher damage than no empower but having the capstone. A monk splash, therefore, would give you evasion, higher saves, higher spell damage, and higher HP, at the cost of 2 to caster level for spell pen and spell damage.

But I assure you that ~20% more spell damage is a lot more valuable than +1 to enchantment DC's. Crushing Despair and a DC of 38 works extremely well for my own sorcerer.

[Malky]

caster level is not DC. this advice is terrible, and should be ignored; it doesn't work.

(a more logical response would have been to suggest 3 cleric past life feats, which actually would help... however, i tend to operate under the assumption that you don't want to add 3 more past lifes to your build, or else you would probably have mentioned that as your plan right from the start).

A DC 40 web works quite well already, especially inside a solid fog (-5 reflex). Getting to 40 on a wf requires some past lives, tho.

[Qezuzu]

Long Answer: You dumped spell pen, and that will prevent effective CC in things like Chrono and DA.

Fitting in spell pen feats is an extremely hard ask for a sorcerer.