Pale Master / Rogue Wizzy

[FrostySFX]

I've been wanting to make a Wiz/Rogue for a while, and soon I'll be TRing my FvS into something like this.
It'll be able to do traps, and have shield mastery (15% dmg reduction when using Lorriks, also going to craft something to negate ASF)

I'd be willing to go pure wiz, but I really want to try something fun. Lemme know if you think this idea could float.

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.11.02
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Level 20 True Neutral Human Male
(2 Rogue \ 18 Wizard) 
Hit Points: 256
Spell Points: 1383 
BAB: 10\10\15\20
Fortitude: 10
Reflex: 18
Will: 11

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(34 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             10                    10
Dexterity            10                    12
Constitution         16                    19
Intelligence         18                    29
Wisdom               10                    10
Charisma             10                    10

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               4                    20.5
Bluff                 0                     1
Concentration         5                    26.5
Diplomacy             4                     5
Disable Device        8                    32
Haggle                4                     4
Heal                  0                     0
Hide                  4                     6
Intimidate            0                     0
Jump                  4                     5
Listen                0                     0
Move Silently         4                     6
Open Lock             4                     6
Perform               n/a                   n/a
Repair                4                     9
Search                8                    32
Spot                  4                    23
Swim                  0                     0
Tumble                4                     6
Use Magic Device      4                     5

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Human Bonus) Insightful Reflexes
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Favored Soul
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Human Versatility I
Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense I


Level 2 (Rogue)


Level 3 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Spell
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Maximize Spell
Enhancement: Frost Manipulation I
Enhancement: Flame Manipulation I
Enhancement: Repair Manipulation I
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar I


Level 4 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Wizard Improved Maximizing I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Glacial Spellcasting I
Enhancement: Combustive Spellcasting I
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence I


Level 5 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Constitution I
Enhancement: Deadly Flame I
Enhancement: Flame Manipulation II
Enhancement: Repair Manipulation II


Level 6 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Shield Proficiency (General)
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Wizard Subtle Spellcasting I


Level 7 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Quicken Spell
Enhancement: Combustive Spellcasting II
Enhancement: Flame Manipulation III
Enhancement: Repair Manipulation III
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar II


Level 8 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Wizard Improved Maximizing II


Level 9 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Spell Focus: Necromancy
Enhancement: Wizard Pale Master I


Level 10 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Flame Manipulation IV
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence II
Enhancement: Shroud of the Zombie


Level 11 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Racial Toughness III
Enhancement: Storm Manipulation I


Level 12 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Spell Focus: Necromancy
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Heighten Spell
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar III


Level 13 (Wizard)


Level 14 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence III
Enhancement: Wizard Pale Master II
Enhancement: Shroud of the Vampire


Level 15 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Shield Mastery
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar IV


Level 16 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Human Greater Adaptability Intelligence I


Level 17 (Wizard)


Level 18 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell
Enhancement: Wizard Improved Maximizing III


Level 19 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Wizard Spell Penetration I


Level 20 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Charged Spellcasting I
Enhancement: Reconstructive Spellcasting I
Enhancement: Deadly Ice I
Enhancement: Rogue Wand and Scroll Mastery I
Enhancement: Shroud of the Lich
Enhancement: Wizard Pale Master III

[Such755]

* Why did you bother putting +2 on every stat? I would change that ASAP and put it all into cunstitution. The leftovers are up to you - dex for reflex, char for UMD (Not really needed) and str for not being overloaded. (I'm guessing for the silver flame potions, but as a pale master you don't need those really...)

* I am not very familiar with taking the two shield feats, to me they really don't seem important. As a pure wizard with no shield feats at all, I can turtle very well with my Light and Darkness (Still working on Levik's...), and regain my SP back. (Successfuly tanked Crateos in Epic Snitch that way.) Even though wizards get their class feats, it's still a feat starved class. Consider dropping those two feats, you will end up with more spell penetration and \ or spell DCs.

* A wizRogue is very fun to play, first you get evasion, which is just great, and second you get to multitask and deal with traps which is super for soloing and will earn you some reputation (:P). On the other hand, you lose 2 spell penetration (in your case 1, thanks to the fvs pl), 1 DC to all schools (Capstone = +2 int.) and one feat, which is like I said before, pretty important. So you will be very fun and effective to level, but at end game content you will not be so great.

* Especialy for the reson above, I'd drop the two shield feats. Take either spell focus + greater spell focus Enchant, or spell focus enchant + spell penetration or spell pen + greater spell pen.

I'm just speaking from my own experience here, if you have any insights please enlighten me.

[sephiroth1084]

Not sure I would skip the Spell Penetration feats on a non-elf wizard without at least a couple of Wiz past lives. I haven't tried the Shield Mastery-equipped wizard, but I'd imagine that its addition to being a wizard is much less significant than being able to get your spells through SR more reliably.

[LeLoric]

Not sure I would skip the Spell Penetration feats on a non-elf wizard without at least a couple of Wiz past lives. I haven't tried the Shield Mastery-equipped wizard, but I'd imagine that its addition to being a wizard is much less significant than being able to get your spells through SR more reliably.

I actually find it to be a pretty big additon when I added it. Being able to get some of the higher hitting epic mobs down to beat on me indefinitely mode with aura up makes a pretty big difference.

The biggest key to pale master effectiveness is the ability to stack a lot of dr and pseudo dr type effects together to reduce large amounts of dmg taken into small enough amounts to be covered by just keeping an aura up. Shield mastery is a pretty strong player in this.

That said I agree you need spell pen on a pale-master more than any other class really and a wizzie past life or two would be important if not taking the feats. My general rule of thumb is at least 30 spell pen.

I would like to wonder why the OP chooses the rogue variant. I just don't find this to have any allure at this time. Truth be told most traps you can just run through. A few epic quests have some traps that are as close to being required as any. These are mainly chains of flame von 5 and partycrashers. The first two you are going to be really hard pressed even with max int to get reflex high enough to get through the traps to be able to disable them. Artificers also provide a much larger pool of trap disablers now that it really isn't hard to find one if you want a trap disabled. Fact is the extra feat +2 int more spell points and slots make more difference than anything the two rog could ever give. If you are dead set on evasion gpo two monk and get two toughness out of it at least.

[sephiroth1084]

I actually find it to be a pretty big additon when I added it. Being able to get some of the higher hitting epic mobs down to beat on me indefinitely mode with aura up makes a pretty big difference.

The biggest key to pale master effectiveness is the ability to stack a lot of dr and pseudo dr type effects together to reduce large amounts of dmg taken into small enough amounts to be covered by just keeping an aura up. Shield mastery is a pretty strong player in this.

I admit that I haven't tried the shield strategy yet, although I am eager to give it a shot, but I feel like being able to punch through SR to land an insta-kill or CC is really what the character should be aiming for, and that mana regen and the extra level of survivability that Shield Mastery provides are strategies for soloing or a higher tier of play--you don't need to be able to stand around and take hits from epic mobs like that, whereas you do need to be able to CC, kill and debuff stuff, and spell penetration is rather important for that.

One is an addition to your abilities, while the other is a hinge upon which your abilities turn.

That said I agree you need spell pen on a pale-master more than any other class really and a wizzie past life or two would be important if not taking the feats. My general rule of thumb is at least 30 spell pen.

That's my point. I'll also mention here that the spell pen is even more important on a wizard splashing a few levels...the OP would be down at least 5 points on spell penetration from a pure wizard that picked up Greater Spell Pen, and that really is too much.

I would like to wonder why the OP chooses the rogue variant. I just don't find this to have any allure at this time. Truth be told most traps you can just run through. A few epic quests have some traps that are as close to being required as any. These are mainly chains of flame von 5 and partycrashers. The first two you are going to be really hard pressed even with max int to get reflex high enough to get through the traps to be able to disable them. Artificers also provide a much larger pool of trap disablers now that it really isn't hard to find one if you want a trap disabled. Fact is the extra feat +2 int more spell points and slots make more difference than anything the two rog could ever give. If you are dead set on evasion gpo two monk and get two toughness out of it at least.

As someone who has a wiz/2 rogue, I have to say that it's pretty fun to level, especially if you pick up some stealth. Honestly, my only regret is that I started my Ferrumshadow project before Pale Masters came out--if I had known about PMs, and Wraith form, I'd definitely not have gone WF and eventually Archmage. But I also happen to enjoy taking down traps.

When fully geared, it is definitely possible to just blunder through a lot of epic traps, but Evasion certainly helps quite a bit there, and a little bit versus some enemy casters. I say a little, because resistance, protection and fire shield plus a good Reflex save and a lot of HP tend to be enough defense in most of those situations without needing Evasion.

Monk looks good, but it seems rather one dimensional unless you're going to melee route; you get Evasion and Toughness, whereas the rogue levels provide openings to some interesting skills that can expand the character's roles in a party or options when soloing. Also, remember that the game doesn't exist only at level 20. 1-17 (that's how far I've gotten with F-shadow) have been a lot of fun, and would be much more so if he were a Pale Master, and had the kind of gear that one could expect on a TR.

Honestly, my suggestion to the OP would be to go elf instead of human and pick up the Elven Arcanum enhancements to make up for not having Spell Penetration, and consider dumping the shield feats for Spell Pen as well, making new decisions on that stuff after another TR with 3 SP from past lives under his/her belt.

[LeLoric]

Oh for sure I would take spell pen over the shield feats for the op in this case. I agree spell pen is very important. It's even needed for your best single target insstant dps spell (necrotic ray). I said so in my guide to palemasters.

Furthermore I would never go shield mastery unless I had a shield to really start to take advanatage of it. If you don't have an epic shield of scorpion, kundarak warding shield or even weathered targe then this really isn't an option. Shield mastery definately falls under the advanced tactics.

The OP would be better off going with enchantment school bonus or spell pen as you noted than shield mastery in his case. Only with some of the best gear available, more tr's, maxed int etc should you start to look into whether other feats would be more useful.

Sorry I should have made this more clear in my first post. I was just trying to explain why shield mastery is so good when used right.

[sephiroth1084]

Oh for sure I would take spell pen over the shield feats for the op in this case. I agree spell pen is very important. It's even needed for your best single target insstant dps spell (necrotic ray). I said so in my guide to palemasters.

Furthermore I would never go shield mastery unless I had a shield to really start to take advanatage of it. If you don't have an epic shield of scorpion, kundarak warding shield or even weathered targe then this really isn't an option. Shield mastery definately falls under the advanced tactics.

The OP would be better off going with enchantment school bonus or spell pen as you noted than shield mastery in his case. Only with some of the best gear available, more tr's, maxed int etc should you start to look into whether other feats would be more useful.

Sorry I should have made this more clear in my first post. I was just trying to explain why shield mastery is so good when used right.

I had a feeling that that was what you were doing, but it wasn't clear, so I went ahead and bludgeoned my point through.

As a complete aside, is Necrotic Ray the best single target instant DPS we have? It doesn't get boosted as much by enhancements as Polar Ray can be, and allows a save for half...are you including the negative level attached to it? I've read your guide, and enjoyed it, but don't recall your discussing this point (whether you did or not, or whether I simply forgot it). Is this only for non-bosses who are affected by the neg level?

[LeLoric]

I had a feeling that that was what you were doing, but it wasn't clear, so I went ahead and bludgeoned my point through.

As a complete aside, is Necrotic Ray the best single target instant DPS we have? It doesn't get boosted as much by enhancements as Polar Ray can be, and allows a save for half...are you including the negative level attached to it? I've read your guide, and enjoyed it, but don't recall your discussing this point (whether you did or not, or whether I simply forgot it). Is this only for non-bosses who are affected by the neg level?

Thought it was in my guide may be posted elsewhere. Just straight dps was higher than polar ray if the mob in question was not saving too frequently, although a few things can change that now. Namely superior ice lore which was not avail at the time I ran tests while sup void lore was. It would still probably take full maxed out cold enhancments and the sup lore to pass necrotic ray. This is due to it being 1d4+4 per level versus the 1d3+3 for polar.

Ill try and work up the numbers again and post them to the guide or it's own post.

[Calebro]

This is due to it being 1d4+4 per level versus the 1d3+3 for polar.

Strictly from a numbers perspective, wouldn't it be Disintegrate because of it's 2d3+6/level? Or does the combination of minimal damage on a successful save and the lack of a good lore line diminish it enough to drop below?

[Galeria]

Bear in mind that for end game, you will be most useful as a trap monkey because you will be able to get almost any trap with the right gear.

But most groups will want a "pure" wiz for epics. As long as you have friends to do epics with, that won't matter. But if you plan to pug, you might want to budget for a +3 heart of wood to LR into a pure wiz for end game.

(I still love my wiz/rogue at end game but she gets turned down for "serious" epics; anyone who requires X DC to join won't want you. And that's ok.)

[sephiroth1084]

Bear in mind that for end game, you will be most useful as a trap monkey because you will be able to get almost any trap with the right gear.

But most groups will want a "pure" wiz for epics. As long as you have friends to do epics with, that won't matter. But if you plan to pug, you might want to budget for a +3 heart of wood to LR into a pure wiz for end game.

(I still love my wiz/rogue at end game but she gets turned down for "serious" epics; anyone who requires X DC to join won't want you. And that's ok.)

I say **** 'em.

Thought it was in my guide may be posted elsewhere. Just straight dps was higher than polar ray if the mob in question was not saving too frequently, although a few things can change that now. Namely superior ice lore which was not avail at the time I ran tests while sup void lore was. It would still probably take full maxed out cold enhancments and the sup lore to pass necrotic ray. This is due to it being 1d4+4 per level versus the 1d3+3 for polar.

Ill try and work up the numbers again and post them to the guide or it's own post.

It may have been in there and I just forgot the discussion. I know that NR can top out higher than PR, but that save for half can be a real downer. Do you use it on non-caster red or purple named monsters?

[LeLoric]

Posted the data here

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=348849

Hopefully we can move all discussion there to avoid further thread derailment. My apologies to the OP