Over-Estimating Divine Punishment

[ShadowFlash]

***I have completely Re-Edited Posts #1 and #2 with my final math numbers. Many thanks to everyone who helped me out along the way. Special thanks to not letting this thread degenerate into an argument on OP-DP nerfing. The math provided here could vey well lead to that, or it could be used as defense to that...I have my own personal bias which I'm trying to subdue, and I appreciate everyone else doing the same. Discussion continues after post #103 where all of this is re-posted for continuity sake***

This Thread attempts to put a mathematical value on Divine Punishment. This also attempt to correct all of the myths and misconceptions revolving around this spell. This is NOT the thread to discuss how/if DP should be re-balanced, or how/if DP is overpowered. It is merely Raw Data.

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*Points of Reference discussed along the journey...

Divine Punishment does NOT use loaded dice

Divine Punishment DOES cap at caster level 20

Eardweller REPLACES values such as potency or brilliance

FvS AoV PrE does NOT provide a static 30% boost to light spells (this seems to be a very common misconception)

FvS AoV Shield of Condemnation light curse is almost impossible to quantify. The currenttly accepted average is 20% de-buff, but is still open to debate. This varies greatly depending on the individual boss, the main tank's AC, and the number of FvS's in the party, so I'm leaving this out of my calculations. It is easy to apply this value to any of my final numbes if so desired, but I do encourage caution here as this is a calculation over time and whether or not it procs at the full 50% at times is mitigated by times it doesn't proc at all. Again, 20% seems to be the accepted norm.

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*The Formulas and mathematical process I use is as follows ...

1 Tic = 2 seconds with no initial tic (common knowlwedge)

Base damage = 1d6+CL = (1+6)/2 + CL = 3.5+CL

Base x [ 1(represents no feats) + 1(maximize) + .5(empower)] x [ 1(represents no gear/enhancements) + .4(enhancement) + (1 for eardweller, .75 for superior brilliance V clickie, or .5 for superior potency V)] = A

Simplified this is... Base x 2.5 x 2.4(eardweller represented) = A

Critical Chance per 100 Tics = [ 9(enhancement) + (Lore Item)] = B

Critical Multiplier = [ 2.25(Enhancement) + (Lore Item) = C

Calculating Average Tics (including Criticals)....
{[(100 - B) x A) + ( A x B x C )] / 100} = Average Tic = D

Starting DPS calculations are based off the 1st 34 seconds of average tics. The Tier III number can be used as a representaion of the maximum achievable DPS, but in fact will never be reached due to diminishing mathematical returns, overall time, and total damge dealt. Tier III damage should be used as reference only and never as an accurate representation of DPS.

Tier I = D(average tic) x 5(10 seconds then stacking to next tier) = E
Tier II = D x 2 x 5 = F
Tier III = D x 3 x 7(14 seconds until refreshing the full triple stack) = G

To get average DPS over the 1st 34 seconds we take...
(E + F + G) / 34 = starting DPS
G / 2 = theoretical final Tier III DPS

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As long as the triple stack is maintained, the DPS will very slowly move from the starting DPS to the theoretical Tier III DPS. Again, reaching this point is mathematically impossible, but is nice to use as a reference.

Once I lay out all the formulas it seems much more complicated than it really is, but I'm attempting to be thourough. Also, by assigning A-G values to each step of the equation it allows me to plug all of this in to my trusty TI-81 graphic calculator for rapid calculations, so any special requests, just ask

I'm not going to show all of my work in the interest of TL,DR (I have pages in my DDO notebook devoted to these calculations), but I have provided all the formula's and methodology I've used so anyone can re-check my numbers.

On to the Results...

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[ShadowFlash]

My first example is CL:20 and should represent a fresh level 20 with basic gearing. Feats are maximize and Empower. Gear includes Superior Brilliance V clickie and Elfcrafted Robes. All Smiting Lines are considered Maxxed. This leads to a starting formula of 23.5 x 2.5 x 2.15 with a 15% chance to critical for 2.5x.

Starting DPS (34 seconds elapsed time)= 163
Tier III sustained DPS = 231 (unreachable as noted above)

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Up next is a high level Set-up. Feats and Enhancements remain unchanged. Gear now includes Superior Brilliance V and a Tier II Alchemical crafted Mystical Superior Radiance Lore Weapon. This leads to a starting formula of 23.5 x 2.5 x 2.15 with the maximum 21% chance to crit for 2.75x.

Starting DPS (34 seconds elapsed time)= 182
Tier III sustained DPS = 259 (unreachable as noted above)

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Finally we'll go for the maximum achievable DPS set-up. Feats and Enhancements remain unchanged. Gear now includes a Tier II Alchemical crafted Mystical Superior Radiance Lore Weapon and the Eardweller. This leads to a maximum achievable starting formula of 23.5 x 2.5 x 2.4 with the maximum 21% chance to crit for 2.75x.

Starting DPS (34 seconds elapsed time)= 203
Tier III sustained DPS = 288 (unreachable as noted above)

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Conclusions:

Reaching 300 sustained average over time including Criticals is not possible

Realistically, the highest DPS a divine will ever see is 250, and that is perfectly geared

The RSII +2 to alignment and light based spells is only useful in reference to DP on splashed builds due to the level 20 Cap.

For the typical Level 20 Divine, a value of 200DPS would probablly be the most realistic representation of Divine Punishments damage.

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That's it ! I think this is my final perfected numbers...Thanks again to everyone who helped along the way.

ShadowFlash

[wigthemaster]

Project for tomorrow is to factor in 3 full minutes of eardweller.

Any recommendations on an average FvS debuff to use. I think it's unrealistic to assume the full tier V 50% will be sustainably applied.

i usually see either 10% or 30% so call it an even 20% if tank has the guard

[ShadowFlash]

i usually see either 10% or 30% so call it an even 20% if tank has the guard

That's what I was thinking from what I've read, but I haven't played a FvS. I'm going to factor in 3-piece abashi and eardweller for a true MAXIMUM DPS calculation, so before I do any other boosts I haven't thought of ?

[Angelus_dead]

Effective CL=22

There has been some disagreement as to if Divine Punishment has an unlisted internal cap of 20 caster level. I think it doesn't, but...

Considering this spell is a divine's main boss weapon, they still have 300 DPS to make up for before they surpass the 600DPS raging barbarian numbers thrown around.

Well yeah, if the Cleric could surpass a Barbarian just by standing safely back and clicking an icon once per 15 seconds, that'd be pretty broken.

The DPS of Divine Punishment is good compared to the time it takes to do it. You can heal in the meantime or do whatever other things you enjoy.

[ShadowFlash]

There has been some disagreement as to if Divine Punishment has an unlisted internal cap of 20 caster level. I think it doesn't, but...

That I don't know...my cleric is a splashed build, so all I know is RS definately applies below levle 20.

Edit: per your edit yes I know it's great for that pupose. I just have never found any hard numbers as to what DPS it truly adds... I.E. how much does a melee battle-cleric have to do to to equal true DPS with DP running.

[jaegarnel]

The reason DP is considered overpowered isn't so much that it does a lot of DPS on its own, but rather that the ratio of time spent casting it vs DPS achieved is huge.
This is true for all the DoTs, but DP stands out because almost all mobs take full damage from it, and it's given to classes with a good tanking ability and great self-healing.

For a barb to get that 600 DPS, he needs to do nothing but beat on the mob all the time.
On the other hand, DP can deal 300 DPS while only taking a second to cast every 15 sec.

That means a cleric or FvS is free to do other stuff, like meleeing the boss, self-healing, or turtling behind a shield to regain sp, while still doing half the DPS of a class that is purely damage-oriented and can't do anything else.

Simply put, this is not balanced.
Whether you actually care about balance is up to you, however. It doesn't matter much to me, since D&D was never balanced in the first place and this is a cooperative game, but I can see how someone who likes playing melee DPS characters might be a bit annoyed.

[ShadowFlash]

The reason DP is considered overpowered isn't so much that it does a lot of DPS on its own, but rather that the ratio of time spent casting it vs DPS achieved is huge.
This is true for all the DoTs, but DP stands out because almost all mobs take full damage from it, and it's given to classes with a good tanking ability and great self-healing.

For a barb to get that 600 DPS, he needs to do nothing but beat on the mob all the time.
On the other hand, DP can deal 300 DPS while only taking a second to cast every 15 sec.

That means a cleric or FvS is free to do other stuff, like meleeing the boss, self-healing, or turtling behind a shield to regain sp, while still doing half the DPS of a class that is purely damage-oriented and can't do anything else.

Simply put, this is not balanced.
Whether you actually care about balance is up to you, however. It doesn't matter much to me, since D&D was never balanced in the first place and this is a cooperative game, but I can see how someone who likes playing melee DPS characters might be a bit annoyed.

balanced or un=balanced..meh..outside the scope of this thread.

I just want a hard number maximum DPS to reference to.

[jaegarnel]

balanced or un=balanced..meh..outside the scope of this thread.

I just want a hard number maximum DPS to reference to.

The problem with your "hard number maximum DPS" is that it's meaningless on its own. The DPS from DP is only a part of what a divine caster can do in a set amount of time.

If you really want to calculate the max DPS a divine can achieve while using DP, then you need to add in all the melee DPS a THF WF FvS can do, or the one that a caster can do from bb kiting and casting other offensive spells.

You'll find it's quite close to that 600 DPS a barb can put out imo.

[sirgog]

The reason DP is considered overpowered isn't so much that it does a lot of DPS on its own, but rather that the ratio of time spent casting it vs DPS achieved is huge.
This is true for all the DoTs, but DP stands out because almost all mobs take full damage from it, and it's given to classes with a good tanking ability and great self-healing.

For a barb to get that 600 DPS, he needs to do nothing but beat on the mob all the time.
On the other hand, DP can deal 300 DPS while only taking a second to cast every 15 sec.

That means a cleric or FvS is free to do other stuff, like meleeing the boss, self-healing, or turtling behind a shield to regain sp, while still doing half the DPS of a class that is purely damage-oriented and can't do anything else.

Simply put, this is not balanced.
Whether you actually care about balance is up to you, however.

This.

600 Barb DPS is pretty much a myth too. That's perfect situations - 0 Fortification, bard buffs, <60 AC, no DR, a target that doesn't move, a fight where you don't need to dodge any boss attacks and the boss has no attacks that interfere with your swinging, and a fight short enough that neither rages nor action boosts run out.

I'm trying to think of an endgame encounter like that. The only ones that comes to mind offhand are easy encounters (final bosses of Epic Snitch, Epic Last Stand, and maybe a couple others).

In other single-target situations, Barb DPS is lower. Consider for instance Epic Velah - 50% baseline fortification (let's assume an average of 30% after Shield of Condemnation is factored in), and ~20% downtime due to hiding from fire. Or Elite/Epic LoB, where 80% Fortification (perhaps an average 40% after Shield is factored in, it's easier to sustain in this fight), and the requirement to ration boosts and even rages, as well as significant loss of DPS to 'must dodge this attack' effects.

OTOH, the actual action of casting Divine Punishment deals ~2800 damage with entry-level endgame gear and only locks out spellcasting for 1 second and melee attacks for ~350 milliseconds. It's 100% effective against almost all endgame targets (sometimes as high as 150% if a FvS is available), and completely safe in most fights.



Besides, you don't fail encounters in DDO due to low DPS. 300-400 DPS, taking no damage, is better in almost every boss fight than 600 DPS and needing constant healing.

[BlackPantha2]

That means a cleric or FvS is free to do other stuff,

like running away and taking cover!

[Pape_27]

Simply put, this is not balanced.

False assumption.

I can see how someone who likes playing melee DPS characters might be a bit annoyed.

This is what you meant to say.


The spell isnt op, it isnt out of balance, in terms of damage delivered.

[ShadowFlash]

Of course I care about the total DPS a divine can do, but without a realistic total of what DP contributes to this total, it is not possible to calculate....hence this thread. Once we have hard numbers, than we can start adding up other things...right now it looks like 210 DPS for the "average" player....seeing what the maximum is will be a nie benchmark

[Shade]

The reason it's utterly and insane overpowered is not the stragith DPS on a cleric.

It's
A) Favored souls - they get more then 70% more damage then your cleric on it.
B) It's UTTERLY unresistable. The ONLY monster in the game that has light resistance is Epic LoB. (please stop brining up monsters with MAGIC IMMUNITY.. The fact it even hits them is wrong.)
C) It's 100% reliable and 100% insanely easy to achieve near-max DPS on, while achieving near-max DPS on a melee is incredibly difficult and requires such a huge group and flawless list of things that is astounding, improbable, and realisticly just plain impossible.

DPS challenge shows REAL bbn DPS vs a 0AC, 100% fort target taht doesnt move. It definetely isn't 600dps, go look it up. The 0% fort mob isn't even 600 for the freakin 100% maxxed out completionists.

A 80% fort one like horoth elite, queen lailat epic, that does move, that does have a extremely high armor class and damage reduction.. who has 0 light resistance. Theres were that spell is utterly overpowered on.

also your math is wrong.

max crit on my poorly geared no archmage set fvs is well over 2k.. Was freakin over 3k before the codemnation change.

[ShadowFlash]

The reason it's utterly and insane overpowered is not the stragith DPS on a cleric.

It's
A) Favored souls - they get more then 70% more damage then your cleric on it.
B) It's UTTERLY unresistable. The ONLY monster in the game that has light resistance is Epic LoB. (please stop brining up monsters with MAGIC IMMUNITY.. The fact it even hits them is wrong.)
C) It's 100% reliable and 100% insanely easy to achieve near-max DPS on, while achieving near-max DPS on a melee is incredibly difficult and requires such a huge group and flawless list of things that is astounding, improbable, and realisticly just plain impossible.

DPS challenge shows REAL bbn DPS vs a 0AC, 100% fort target taht doesnt move. It definetely isn't 600dps, go look it up. The 0% fort mob isn't even 600 for the freakin 100% maxxed out completionists.

A 80% fort one like horoth elite, queen lailat epic, that does move, that does have a extremely high armor class and damage reduction.. who has 0 light resistance. Theres were that spell is utterly overpowered on.

also your math is wrong.

max crit on my poorly geared no archmage set fvs is well over 2k.. Was freakin over 3k before the codemnation change.

Favored souls do not get 70%....they get at most 50%, and from what I've heard, only 20% due to shield proc dependably. Not to mention, when you speak of DP, you MUST include the "lowly" cleric as well, not just the precious FvS's.

been a while since I read your DPS challenge....why is it no divines take the top spots ?

how is my math wrong...show me and I'll modify it...I show the AVERAGE damage spread across a full 100 tics...much like melee DPS is calculated. Spellcasters AND melees would love to just take those big numbers, but average must be calculated...even you can appreciate not critting all the time....21% max the way i see it.

reasonably easy to achieve means 45 AP for an RSII cleric...this is before things like toughness, WIS AP's, and so on...in other words bare minimum...plus 4 feats....maximize, empower healing, empower, and quicken.

210 DPS minimum and approximately 250 maximum reliably is NOT super uber. Melee-divine are definately not top-tier according to you. What other sustainable boss DPS in addition to DP can you add to make it OP?

All this of course is simply humoring your trolling, as THIS thread is only about the math of DP, NOT whether it is overpowered or not.

[Shade]

Favored souls do not get 70%....they get at most 50%, and from what I've heard, only 20% due to shield proc dependably. Not to mention, when you speak of DP, you MUST include the "lowly" cleric as well, not just the precious FvS's.

Wrong. Look it up next time before you make such a contraversial topic ...:
http://ddowiki.com/page/Angel_of_Vengeance_enhancements

Hell I was remembering it wrong too!. It's actually +80% more!

+30% base all the time passive.
+50% from condemnation procs (clerics can benefit from this too)

And what you heard about comdemnation is utterly illogicla. If you can maintain a single stack, you will maintain a 5x stack. Maintain anything between 1x and 5x is utterly unlikely. The enemies either attack fast enough to maintain 5x, or rarely get 1x, theres no in between on this.

Yea it's situational (the +50%), but it works awesome in the most dangerous situations against the most devastating raid bosses - ones that you really want to DP, and ones that melee FAST and hard enough to be worth nuking.
Horoth, Lailat, Suulomades, Lord of Blades, Sorjek - all of these are easy enough to maintain a 5x stack on, with a single fvs in the grp.
For slower attackers like velah, or more random ones like arraetrikos, you can maintain it also, but generally you want 2 fvs to be very reliable. Another reasons FvS are so overpowered, they stack oh so well, more is always better.

And it was insane when it was +100% pre u11.. Still crazy overpowered tho as its much easier to maintain the stack now thanks to the longer duration.

[Lavek]

Horoth, Lailat, Suulomades, Lord of Blades, Sorjek - all of these are easy enough to maintain a 5x stack on, with a single fvs in the grp.

you should play your fvs more before making these kind of delusional claims...

[Shade]

you should play your fvs more before making these kind of delusional claims...

Exactly why does one need to play a favored soul to tell if there are 5x stacks?

Looking at the examination panel isn't restricted to a single class. Nor is who has the condemnation proc (crown) applied to them

It's actaully easier to tell when its happening on a barbarian, because you get purple numbers above your head on each proc, while favored souls generally are seeing purple numbers all over hte place, and not always up in the bosses face like the tanks are.

So perhaps you should get a better understanding of how comdemnation works before breaking the forum rules. My claims are 100% accurate.

If you arent maintaing the stacks against the bosses I mentioned, its either
A) Tank isn't crowned
B) Tank has too much AC - AC ruins everything
C) Favored soul who crowned the tank is out of range - VERY COMMON.. I see this almots every run and have to ask the fvs to get closer.

And yea, I was wrong about the AoV enhancements, didnt read them clearly - was pretty wasted when i wrote the reply.. Lotsa ppl mis understanding them tho so eh we're all learning.

Theres not much to learn here tho other then:

1. People love there favored souls enough to make completely illogical claims to defend there overpowered abilities.
2. DP is geting the nerf.
3. People will be upset, but it has to happen.

Personally I hate nerfs and im ALWAYS pro-buff dont nerf to fix game imbalances. But the only buff option in this case is unmanagable and unreasonable:
Give every strong boss monster in the game a lot of light resistance.. Too much work and ends up nerfing spells that dont deserve nerfs like searing light.

And the nerfs im suggesiton aren't that big.. Just that DP should be top DPS only for people who really work at making it top DPS - EG ones with good saves on it.
So give it a save. Tho i think it also needs to be capped at CL15 as it should not match the damage (actually it currently surpasses it due to the condemnation) of the arcane versions, as there are millions of monsters with ice/lightning resistance but zero (except lord of blades) with light resistance.

RE: Cratos.. No. He is a variation on a Iron golem, iron golems hae MAGIC IMMUNITY. It's different. In u9 they nerfed magic immunity to instead block 50% of all spell damage. He has no light resistance.

[gloopygloop]

Wrong. Look it up next time before you make such a contraversial topic ...:
http://ddowiki.com/page/Angel_of_Vengeance_enhancements

Hell I was remembering it wrong too!. It's actually +80% more!

+30% base all the time passive. Fire, Physical or Untyped. Is DP Fire or Physical or Untyped?
+50% from condemnation procs (clerics can benefit from this too)

And what you heard about comdemnation is utterly illogicla. If you can maintain a single stack, you will maintain a 5x stack. Maintain anything between 1x and 5x is utterly unlikely. The enemies either attack fast enough to maintain 5x, or rarely get 1x, theres no in between on this.

You are correct in your understanding that long term fights will end up with either 1x or 5x because the procs will either happen often enough to maintain a full stack or they will not happen often enough to maintain a stack at all.

You are incorrect in your understanding that the procs happen often enough to maintain a full stack.

[weewoo0]

Wrong. Look it up next time before you make such a contraversial topic ...:
http://ddowiki.com/page/Angel_of_Vengeance_enhancements

Hell I was remembering it wrong too!. It's actually +80% more!

+30% base all the time passive.
+50% from condemnation procs (clerics can benefit from this too)

thank you for linking the post that disproves your attempt to disprove his point?
i honestly dont understand how you got the thought that the PrE boosts light spells.