Over-Estimating Divine Punishment

[ShadowFlash]

***I have completely Re-Edited Posts #1 and #2 with my final math numbers. Many thanks to everyone who helped me out along the way. Special thanks to not letting this thread degenerate into an argument on OP-DP nerfing. The math provided here could vey well lead to that, or it could be used as defense to that...I have my own personal bias which I'm trying to subdue, and I appreciate everyone else doing the same. Discussion continues after post #103 where all of this is re-posted for continuity sake***

This Thread attempts to put a mathematical value on Divine Punishment. This also attempt to correct all of the myths and misconceptions revolving around this spell. This is NOT the thread to discuss how/if DP should be re-balanced, or how/if DP is overpowered. It is merely Raw Data.

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*Points of Reference discussed along the journey...

Divine Punishment does NOT use loaded dice

Divine Punishment DOES cap at caster level 20

Eardweller REPLACES values such as potency or brilliance

FvS AoV PrE does NOT provide a static 30% boost to light spells (this seems to be a very common misconception)

FvS AoV Shield of Condemnation light curse is almost impossible to quantify. The currenttly accepted average is 20% de-buff, but is still open to debate. This varies greatly depending on the individual boss, the main tank's AC, and the number of FvS's in the party, so I'm leaving this out of my calculations. It is easy to apply this value to any of my final numbes if so desired, but I do encourage caution here as this is a calculation over time and whether or not it procs at the full 50% at times is mitigated by times it doesn't proc at all. Again, 20% seems to be the accepted norm.

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*The Formulas and mathematical process I use is as follows ...

1 Tic = 2 seconds with no initial tic (common knowlwedge)

Base damage = 1d6+CL = (1+6)/2 + CL = 3.5+CL

Base x [ 1(represents no feats) + 1(maximize) + .5(empower)] x [ 1(represents no gear/enhancements) + .4(enhancement) + (1 for eardweller, .75 for superior brilliance V clickie, or .5 for superior potency V)] = A

Simplified this is... Base x 2.5 x 2.4(eardweller represented) = A

Critical Chance per 100 Tics = [ 9(enhancement) + (Lore Item)] = B

Critical Multiplier = [ 2.25(Enhancement) + (Lore Item) = C

Calculating Average Tics (including Criticals)....
{[(100 - B) x A) + ( A x B x C )] / 100} = Average Tic = D

Starting DPS calculations are based off the 1st 34 seconds of average tics. The Tier III number can be used as a representaion of the maximum achievable DPS, but in fact will never be reached due to diminishing mathematical returns, overall time, and total damge dealt. Tier III damage should be used as reference only and never as an accurate representation of DPS.

Tier I = D(average tic) x 5(10 seconds then stacking to next tier) = E
Tier II = D x 2 x 5 = F
Tier III = D x 3 x 7(14 seconds until refreshing the full triple stack) = G

To get average DPS over the 1st 34 seconds we take...
(E + F + G) / 34 = starting DPS
G / 2 = theoretical final Tier III DPS

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As long as the triple stack is maintained, the DPS will very slowly move from the starting DPS to the theoretical Tier III DPS. Again, reaching this point is mathematically impossible, but is nice to use as a reference.

Once I lay out all the formulas it seems much more complicated than it really is, but I'm attempting to be thourough. Also, by assigning A-G values to each step of the equation it allows me to plug all of this in to my trusty TI-81 graphic calculator for rapid calculations, so any special requests, just ask

I'm not going to show all of my work in the interest of TL,DR (I have pages in my DDO notebook devoted to these calculations), but I have provided all the formula's and methodology I've used so anyone can re-check my numbers.

On to the Results...

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[ShadowFlash]

My first example is CL:20 and should represent a fresh level 20 with basic gearing. Feats are maximize and Empower. Gear includes Superior Brilliance V clickie and Elfcrafted Robes. All Smiting Lines are considered Maxxed. This leads to a starting formula of 23.5 x 2.5 x 2.15 with a 15% chance to critical for 2.5x.

Starting DPS (34 seconds elapsed time)= 163
Tier III sustained DPS = 231 (unreachable as noted above)

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Up next is a high level Set-up. Feats and Enhancements remain unchanged. Gear now includes Superior Brilliance V and a Tier II Alchemical crafted Mystical Superior Radiance Lore Weapon. This leads to a starting formula of 23.5 x 2.5 x 2.15 with the maximum 21% chance to crit for 2.75x.

Starting DPS (34 seconds elapsed time)= 182
Tier III sustained DPS = 259 (unreachable as noted above)

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Finally we'll go for the maximum achievable DPS set-up. Feats and Enhancements remain unchanged. Gear now includes a Tier II Alchemical crafted Mystical Superior Radiance Lore Weapon and the Eardweller. This leads to a maximum achievable starting formula of 23.5 x 2.5 x 2.4 with the maximum 21% chance to crit for 2.75x.

Starting DPS (34 seconds elapsed time)= 203
Tier III sustained DPS = 288 (unreachable as noted above)

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Conclusions:

Reaching 300 sustained average over time including Criticals is not possible

Realistically, the highest DPS a divine will ever see is 250, and that is perfectly geared

The RSII +2 to alignment and light based spells is only useful in reference to DP on splashed builds due to the level 20 Cap.

For the typical Level 20 Divine, a value of 200DPS would probablly be the most realistic representation of Divine Punishments damage.

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That's it ! I think this is my final perfected numbers...Thanks again to everyone who helped along the way.

ShadowFlash

[wigthemaster]

Project for tomorrow is to factor in 3 full minutes of eardweller.

Any recommendations on an average FvS debuff to use. I think it's unrealistic to assume the full tier V 50% will be sustainably applied.

i usually see either 10% or 30% so call it an even 20% if tank has the guard

[Angelus_dead]

Effective CL=22

There has been some disagreement as to if Divine Punishment has an unlisted internal cap of 20 caster level. I think it doesn't, but...

Considering this spell is a divine's main boss weapon, they still have 300 DPS to make up for before they surpass the 600DPS raging barbarian numbers thrown around.

Well yeah, if the Cleric could surpass a Barbarian just by standing safely back and clicking an icon once per 15 seconds, that'd be pretty broken.

The DPS of Divine Punishment is good compared to the time it takes to do it. You can heal in the meantime or do whatever other things you enjoy.

[ShadowFlash]

i usually see either 10% or 30% so call it an even 20% if tank has the guard

That's what I was thinking from what I've read, but I haven't played a FvS. I'm going to factor in 3-piece abashi and eardweller for a true MAXIMUM DPS calculation, so before I do any other boosts I haven't thought of ?

[ShadowFlash]

There has been some disagreement as to if Divine Punishment has an unlisted internal cap of 20 caster level. I think it doesn't, but...

That I don't know...my cleric is a splashed build, so all I know is RS definately applies below levle 20.

Edit: per your edit yes I know it's great for that pupose. I just have never found any hard numbers as to what DPS it truly adds... I.E. how much does a melee battle-cleric have to do to to equal true DPS with DP running.

[jaegarnel]

The reason DP is considered overpowered isn't so much that it does a lot of DPS on its own, but rather that the ratio of time spent casting it vs DPS achieved is huge.
This is true for all the DoTs, but DP stands out because almost all mobs take full damage from it, and it's given to classes with a good tanking ability and great self-healing.

For a barb to get that 600 DPS, he needs to do nothing but beat on the mob all the time.
On the other hand, DP can deal 300 DPS while only taking a second to cast every 15 sec.

That means a cleric or FvS is free to do other stuff, like meleeing the boss, self-healing, or turtling behind a shield to regain sp, while still doing half the DPS of a class that is purely damage-oriented and can't do anything else.

Simply put, this is not balanced.
Whether you actually care about balance is up to you, however. It doesn't matter much to me, since D&D was never balanced in the first place and this is a cooperative game, but I can see how someone who likes playing melee DPS characters might be a bit annoyed.

[ShadowFlash]

The reason DP is considered overpowered isn't so much that it does a lot of DPS on its own, but rather that the ratio of time spent casting it vs DPS achieved is huge.
This is true for all the DoTs, but DP stands out because almost all mobs take full damage from it, and it's given to classes with a good tanking ability and great self-healing.

For a barb to get that 600 DPS, he needs to do nothing but beat on the mob all the time.
On the other hand, DP can deal 300 DPS while only taking a second to cast every 15 sec.

That means a cleric or FvS is free to do other stuff, like meleeing the boss, self-healing, or turtling behind a shield to regain sp, while still doing half the DPS of a class that is purely damage-oriented and can't do anything else.

Simply put, this is not balanced.
Whether you actually care about balance is up to you, however. It doesn't matter much to me, since D&D was never balanced in the first place and this is a cooperative game, but I can see how someone who likes playing melee DPS characters might be a bit annoyed.

balanced or un=balanced..meh..outside the scope of this thread.

I just want a hard number maximum DPS to reference to.

[jaegarnel]

balanced or un=balanced..meh..outside the scope of this thread.

I just want a hard number maximum DPS to reference to.

The problem with your "hard number maximum DPS" is that it's meaningless on its own. The DPS from DP is only a part of what a divine caster can do in a set amount of time.

If you really want to calculate the max DPS a divine can achieve while using DP, then you need to add in all the melee DPS a THF WF FvS can do, or the one that a caster can do from bb kiting and casting other offensive spells.

You'll find it's quite close to that 600 DPS a barb can put out imo.

[sirgog]

The reason DP is considered overpowered isn't so much that it does a lot of DPS on its own, but rather that the ratio of time spent casting it vs DPS achieved is huge.
This is true for all the DoTs, but DP stands out because almost all mobs take full damage from it, and it's given to classes with a good tanking ability and great self-healing.

For a barb to get that 600 DPS, he needs to do nothing but beat on the mob all the time.
On the other hand, DP can deal 300 DPS while only taking a second to cast every 15 sec.

That means a cleric or FvS is free to do other stuff, like meleeing the boss, self-healing, or turtling behind a shield to regain sp, while still doing half the DPS of a class that is purely damage-oriented and can't do anything else.

Simply put, this is not balanced.
Whether you actually care about balance is up to you, however.

This.

600 Barb DPS is pretty much a myth too. That's perfect situations - 0 Fortification, bard buffs, <60 AC, no DR, a target that doesn't move, a fight where you don't need to dodge any boss attacks and the boss has no attacks that interfere with your swinging, and a fight short enough that neither rages nor action boosts run out.

I'm trying to think of an endgame encounter like that. The only ones that comes to mind offhand are easy encounters (final bosses of Epic Snitch, Epic Last Stand, and maybe a couple others).

In other single-target situations, Barb DPS is lower. Consider for instance Epic Velah - 50% baseline fortification (let's assume an average of 30% after Shield of Condemnation is factored in), and ~20% downtime due to hiding from fire. Or Elite/Epic LoB, where 80% Fortification (perhaps an average 40% after Shield is factored in, it's easier to sustain in this fight), and the requirement to ration boosts and even rages, as well as significant loss of DPS to 'must dodge this attack' effects.

OTOH, the actual action of casting Divine Punishment deals ~2800 damage with entry-level endgame gear and only locks out spellcasting for 1 second and melee attacks for ~350 milliseconds. It's 100% effective against almost all endgame targets (sometimes as high as 150% if a FvS is available), and completely safe in most fights.



Besides, you don't fail encounters in DDO due to low DPS. 300-400 DPS, taking no damage, is better in almost every boss fight than 600 DPS and needing constant healing.

[ShadowFlash]

Of course I care about the total DPS a divine can do, but without a realistic total of what DP contributes to this total, it is not possible to calculate....hence this thread. Once we have hard numbers, than we can start adding up other things...right now it looks like 210 DPS for the "average" player....seeing what the maximum is will be a nie benchmark

[BlackPantha2]

That means a cleric or FvS is free to do other stuff,

like running away and taking cover!

[Shade]

The reason it's utterly and insane overpowered is not the stragith DPS on a cleric.

It's
A) Favored souls - they get more then 70% more damage then your cleric on it.
B) It's UTTERLY unresistable. The ONLY monster in the game that has light resistance is Epic LoB. (please stop brining up monsters with MAGIC IMMUNITY.. The fact it even hits them is wrong.)
C) It's 100% reliable and 100% insanely easy to achieve near-max DPS on, while achieving near-max DPS on a melee is incredibly difficult and requires such a huge group and flawless list of things that is astounding, improbable, and realisticly just plain impossible.

DPS challenge shows REAL bbn DPS vs a 0AC, 100% fort target taht doesnt move. It definetely isn't 600dps, go look it up. The 0% fort mob isn't even 600 for the freakin 100% maxxed out completionists.

A 80% fort one like horoth elite, queen lailat epic, that does move, that does have a extremely high armor class and damage reduction.. who has 0 light resistance. Theres were that spell is utterly overpowered on.

also your math is wrong.

max crit on my poorly geared no archmage set fvs is well over 2k.. Was freakin over 3k before the codemnation change.

[Firesmall_at]

And with all that......

divines are in short supply.

Go figure.

[Matuse]

A) Favored souls - they get more then 70% more damage then your cleric on it.

Under fantastically unrealistic circumstances, same as a melee getting totally uninterrupted damage with perfect raid buffs and action boosts. Actually, far less likely than that.

The only monster I've EVER gotten a 5 stack of light curse on is Lailat. Probably Keradi and the marilith in Demon's Den can get there too, but I don't go into melee range of either of them. Lailat you frequently have no choice. She's much faster than the other two.

That's it. Just Lailat. One monster. IN THE ENTIRE GAME. One time (in 30+ runs), Arreitrikos got himself up to a stack of 4. That lasted for the 15 seconds, and then went down to zero.

Essentially, no monsters attack fast enough to get cursed that much. They just don't. A realistic figure for the light curse is 1-2 ticks, because that's all that you can ever expect to get. With the U11 change, some faster attacking monsters might reliably see themselves up in the 2-3 area due to the increased duration, but of course, with the vulnerability itself being halved, the net effect is they take less damage than pre-U11.

B) It's UTTERLY unresistable. The ONLY monster in the game that has light resistance is Epic LoB. (please stop brining up monsters with MAGIC IMMUNITY.. The fact it even hits them is wrong.)

Xy'zzy and Crateos are not magic immune. Xy'zzy gets hit by all kinds of magic after she is made generally vulnerable. I've seen Crateos be hit by elemental damage after a Savant or Monk vulnerability curse is placed on it. I've also hit Crateos with 1 tick of light vulnerability, and he still took no damage from DP.

Clay golems take substantially reduced damage from Light, as they do with everything else.

I also find it strange that DP is being to heavily singled out. Why not the Electric version? It works on basically the same category of monsters. Why do people use lightning II weapons? Because they hit damned near everything. A few demons are immune (Lailat), the stormreaver (a joke), flesh golems (very rare, and none worth casting a DoT on anyway)...and not much else.

[ShadowFlash]

The reason it's utterly and insane overpowered is not the stragith DPS on a cleric.

It's
A) Favored souls - they get more then 70% more damage then your cleric on it.
B) It's UTTERLY unresistable. The ONLY monster in the game that has light resistance is Epic LoB. (please stop brining up monsters with MAGIC IMMUNITY.. The fact it even hits them is wrong.)
C) It's 100% reliable and 100% insanely easy to achieve near-max DPS on, while achieving near-max DPS on a melee is incredibly difficult and requires such a huge group and flawless list of things that is astounding, improbable, and realisticly just plain impossible.

DPS challenge shows REAL bbn DPS vs a 0AC, 100% fort target taht doesnt move. It definetely isn't 600dps, go look it up. The 0% fort mob isn't even 600 for the freakin 100% maxxed out completionists.

A 80% fort one like horoth elite, queen lailat epic, that does move, that does have a extremely high armor class and damage reduction.. who has 0 light resistance. Theres were that spell is utterly overpowered on.

also your math is wrong.

max crit on my poorly geared no archmage set fvs is well over 2k.. Was freakin over 3k before the codemnation change.

Favored souls do not get 70%....they get at most 50%, and from what I've heard, only 20% due to shield proc dependably. Not to mention, when you speak of DP, you MUST include the "lowly" cleric as well, not just the precious FvS's.

been a while since I read your DPS challenge....why is it no divines take the top spots ?

how is my math wrong...show me and I'll modify it...I show the AVERAGE damage spread across a full 100 tics...much like melee DPS is calculated. Spellcasters AND melees would love to just take those big numbers, but average must be calculated...even you can appreciate not critting all the time....21% max the way i see it.

reasonably easy to achieve means 45 AP for an RSII cleric...this is before things like toughness, WIS AP's, and so on...in other words bare minimum...plus 4 feats....maximize, empower healing, empower, and quicken.

210 DPS minimum and approximately 250 maximum reliably is NOT super uber. Melee-divine are definately not top-tier according to you. What other sustainable boss DPS in addition to DP can you add to make it OP?

All this of course is simply humoring your trolling, as THIS thread is only about the math of DP, NOT whether it is overpowered or not.

[MyHumps]

I just think people can't handle healers being anything more than a healbot.

[ShadowFlash]

snip....

while I'll agree with you for now, I really don't want this to degenerate into another one of those threads like the other one up right now on DC's. I realize this is a most improbable wish, as many find the need to nerf this and that. I would rather this thread be used as a pure math reference thread to be used in those kind of arguments. If we could all agree on the basic math behind it all, AND have a point of reference for when people spew unrealistic numbers like 3k per tic, then people will not take that kind of exaggeration as gospel. Whether or not that kind of tic is achievable or not is completely irrelevant as DP is a Damage Over Time (DoT) spell, so the actual sustainable damage over time is what is relevant, NOT the maximum tic.

[Cartheron]

I think your numbers are more or less correct, but to achieve maximum possible dps you should do math for fvs - their damage boost from PrE is much bigger than +2 CL from radiant servant.

Assuming 20% vulnerability from debuff would be ok I think.

I just checked DPS calc by Absolute Omniscience (not updated for U11, mind you) and calculated dps for highly geared WF FVS with eSOS - it is about 250 on 0% fort target. For similary geared Horc barb it is around 500 in this calculator.

And we have to add FVS archon to the equation, which is around 25 DPS (arond 40/2seconds without 20% curse for me).

So, with DP our hipotetical FVS can actualy outdamage barb (not counting new damage boosts) as long as he has sp. With around 3k sp pool this means "for a quite long time"

All of this is purely hipotetical speculations, but I dont think that community is "overestimating" DP damage.

[ShadowFlash]

I think your numbers are more or less correct, but to achieve maximum possible dps you should do math for fvs - their damage boost from PrE is much bigger than +2 CL from radiant servant.

Assuming 20% vulnerability from debuff would be ok I think.

I just checked DPS calc by Absolute Omniscience (not updated for U11, mind you) and calculated dps for highly geared WF FVS with eSOS - it is about 250 on 0% fort target. For similary geared Horc barb it is around 500 in this calculator.

And we have to add FVS archon to the equation, which is around 25 DPS (arond 40/2seconds without 20% curse for me).

So, with DP our hipotetical FVS can actualy outdamage barb (not counting new damage boosts) as long as he has sp. With around 3k sp pool this means "for a quite long time"

All of this is purely hipotetical speculations, but I dont think that community is "overestimating" DP damage.

Yep, I know that's where this will lead, but I do believe the community is overestimating DP by spouting numbers like 2-3k per tic. It gives a far different impression than 210-250 DPS now doesn't it? Newer players reading the forums assume themselves totally gimp by not achieving those unrealistic numbers and don't realize that they have to do something else beside DP to achieve acceptable DPS. THAT is the sole point here. I know big DPS numbers are achievable when taken as a whole, but Divine Punishment DPS only accounts for at most 1/2 of that potential.

SP pool can easily be compared to number of boosts for melees, which is a current topic of contention given the longer epic fights now. Sustainable DPS is what I hope to show with this math, after which melee, or other spell-based DPS can be added to depending on build structure.

If healing is to be considered as a factor, all other non-DP DPS will understandably be lessened due to time constraints healing requires.

On a further note, even the current solo-epic FvS DQ2 run fails to consistently maintain the De-Buff proc AND it also fails to maintain the full triple-stack the whole time significantly reducing the mathematical DPS. The success of these achievements should rightly be attributed to player skill NOT to one specific element of gameplay...I.E. wings or DP.