What's The Harm in Having 6 Strength?

[Stahse]

If you're absolutely determined to do a finesse halfling monk on a TR, instead of this:

Try something like this:
Str 14, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 16, Cha 8
That's only 2 less AC than you'd have with your build, but it won't be *completely* gimped in melee and it won't suffer from Ray issues.

I suppose that's not too bad to drop wis a couple points. I am a 36-point build though, so I can keep 18 dex and only lose the one point of AC.

Any DPS calcs out there to see the difference between this and other monk builds?

Thanks again.

[voxson5]

...By the time I see ray of enfeeblement I would have a +6 item...

You'll get enfeebled as early as the harbor - trust me, its a real PITA

[maha0201]

1st quest where i have regreat for not having +str item on mine 16 base str monk pally was the Irestone inlet - so from there on you can count that you wont be able to use wraps with finesse etc... ( since youll get meidum load > not centered > gimpy unarmed fighting )

[Sarisa]

Definitely don't go this route.

Ray of Enfeeblement can hit for up to 11 strength damage. It's used as low as the Harbor, where it can STILL hit for up to 7 or 8 strength damage.

Exhaustion effects also have a -6 strength and -6 dex penalty. This stacks with Ray of Enfeeblement. Therefore, it's possible, starting in say the Desert, at level 10-ish, to lose 17 strength in a matter of a few seconds, before you even have a chance to drink a Lesser Restoration. This is putting you in a helpless state even with a +6 item and 5 levelups. You won't have all that at level 10 in the desert.

Shadows also have cumulative strength damage.

Losing even a little bit of strength can uncenter you. Being uncentered makes you lose a great deal of monk abilities, further impairing your ability to recover from the strength drain.

You lose evasion if you reach Heavy load, which at 21 strength (6 base+6 item+5 levelups+2 tome+2 ship) on a Halfling is 1,148. With Exhaustion it's 495, and that's just a -6 penalty to strength. With an average Ray of Enfeeblement (-8 str), that's 375. That's to get Heavy load. To reach Medium load, where you lose being centered, the values are a lot lower. Also note that the majority of strength damage comes from casters, and losing evasion around casters will suddenly make you take a lot more damage you normally wouldn't have.

Being Halfling, you have 3/4 the carrying capacity of the other races. Therefore, it's even easier to get encumbered with even a small amount of strength damage, or even just by looting a few Full Plates.

Finesse only affects to-hit, not damage. Yes, monks get a lot of hits per minute in, and have a lot of extra damage die, but base damage still matters.

[rimble]

Well, the focus seems to be on ray of enfeeblement, but that really is a tertiary issue. Even with 6 strength I would equip a strength item. By the time I see ray of enfeeblement I would have a +6 item, so a 12 strength. It's not all that easy to incapacitate.

It's not about incapacitation, it's about being forced out of your Monk stance if you go above Light encumbrance. You also attack like a non-Monk, REALLY slowly punch/kick attack animations, not your normal fast Flurry of Blows kind of attacks.

Halflings get the double whammy with that -2 Strength AND they have 3/4 the carrying capacity of the other races...so you actually get encumbered 25% sooner.

My level 9 WF Monk has a 20 or 22 Strength right now, and one Ray of Enfeeblement still jacks him up. It is NOT FUN being in Tear of Dhakaan, surrounded by hoblins, and suddenly you're -7 Strength and doing the slow ******** Punch/Kick attack animation.

[Astraghal]

More importantly .... does it have to have STR of 6?

God your avatar is ugly.

[Setin_Myways]

So what i want to know is what is worse Str as a dump stat or con as a dump stat... I would not do either but this has me curious.

[Uska]

In addition to ray of enfebelement if you do anything in the orchard those shadows will drain your str in nothing flat

[DrunkenBuddha]

The encumberance issue is not one you should take lightly either - as a halfling that becomes an issue sooner than not. My intial life was as a dex/wis halfling light monk although I started with 12 str. I couldn't solo gwylan's, not because of the mobs or anything, but because I became encumbered dragging around those things you stuff in the boxes (I know I could have killed all the mobs and then returned and slowly did it, etc) but it can quickly become an annoyance.

Large ing bag on a shroud run, filled with essences and larges, not to mention the loot you pull. Makes everything more difficult to be honest. And that is not even getting into coupling this with the rays of enfeeblement.

I don't recommend dumping str on a monk or any melee to be honest. Besides, you'll want power attack.

[NaturalHazard]

are you that strapped for build points that you have to go 6 str?

[NaturalHazard]

God your avatar is ugly.

I actually think you look quite fetching in that photo astraghal.

[honkuimushi]

My level 9 WF Monk has a 20 or 22 Strength right now, and one Ray of Enfeeblement still jacks him up. It is NOT FUN being in Tear of Dhakaan, surrounded by hoblins, and suddenly you're -7 Strength and doing the slow ******** Punch/Kick attack animation.

Just to reinforce this, I have an Acrobat with Monk levels that started with a 15 Str and put all level-ups and i tried to have the best Str item I could afford. There were still quite a few times where I was kicked out of stance by a Ray of Enfeeblement. If you loot any armor, you're likely to reach medium encumberance on a 6 Str halfling. Poison and Shadows will be a significant problem too. And with that low a Str, you will face helplessness in quite a few quests.

As for weapons, Nat Gann's Staff and Breeze are the only Dex to damage Monk weapons I know of and both are raid loot. Epic Zephyr will work if you go Ninja Spy. Still, it's a pretty underwhealming weapon. The staffs are a bit better, but using a staff without Power Attack is pretty disappointing. Handwraps always use Str to damage, and even then Power Attack is a good investment because you simulate a 20 BAB and don't suffer any to hit penalties even though you use the TWF feats.

I won't discourage you from trying an AC build, but I agree with the advice of starting with at least a 12 Str.

[Meriadeuc]

Being Halfling, you have 3/4 the carrying capacity of the other races. Therefore, it's even easier to get encumbered with even a small amount of strength damage, or even just by looting a few Full Plates.

The other thing you should remember is that if the weight you are carrying suddenly becomes greater than your carrying capacity, you become overloaded (a state similar to being helpless from having a 0 stat). If you're a halfling starting with 6 strength, you can reasonably expect to have 14 strength by level 20. A ray of enfeeblement will not make you helpless at this point, but it can easily make you overloaded if you are carrying anything more than a minimal load, and ray of enfeeblement is thrown around in some high-level quests (the efreti in EDQ2, for example). Being overloaded isn't as bad as being helpless because you can usually destroy some items in your inventory and lower your load to the point where you can drink a lesser restore potion. Doing that takes time, however, and the time you spend being in an essentially helpless state can easily kill you.

I agree that for a monk in particular, the extra damage you lose by going dexterity rather than strength based isn't all that significant compared to your other sources of damage. It's not completely negligble, but in some circumstances the AC you gain can make up for it. For a halfling, however, carrying-capacity considerations cannot be ignored, even at level 20. It's for this reason, rather than the loss of damage, that I would never make a halfling character of any type with less than 10 strength.

[rimble]

Just to reinforce this, I have an Acrobat with Monk levels that started with a 15 Str and put all level-ups and i tried to have the best Str item I could afford. There were still quite a few times where I was kicked out of stance by a Ray of Enfeeblement.

Agreed. Just thought I'd add, all the advice here is just ESPECIALLY true for Monks. Getting knocked out of stance is DEADLY. I wouldn't particularly recommend a 6 Strength Rogue or whatever, but the encumbrance issue would be MUCH less painful for them.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

At high lvls Monks do more damage with fists than any weapon that I am aware of.

Str adds to damage for everthing...except maybe a couple named weapons.
Str less than 10 subtracts from damage to everything.... (possibly not those rare named items..)

Halflings can only cary 3/4 the weight that everyone else can.

Weight limit is based off of Str.

A medium encumbered Monk is uncentered.

Ray of Enfeeblement is common at some lvls. And has no save against it.

A few other Str effecting spells are common at higher lvls.

Normally +2 Str items are min lvl 5. +3 min lvl 7, +4 min lvl 9, +5 min lvl 11, +6 min lvl 13.
Race Required can lower that by one category.
Bind to account special rewards for no min lvl +2s are common. Tangle Root end rewards have min lvl 5 +3s

Etc.


Think about it and choose carefully.

[Therigar]

one ray of enfeeblement and you lose your monk stance if you are under heavy encumbrance.

Actually ray of enfeeblement is a low-level spell and casters use it a lot in quests like Tear of Dhakaan and such.

You also have a lot of low level quests (WW, Freshen the air, Proof is in the Poison) with Str. damage through poison or enfeeblement, and some mid level quests (I think Sands and Tears) were it is really a nuisance.[/url]

In addition to ray of enfebelement if you do anything in the orchard those shadows will drain your str in nothing flat

When planning a character you essentially have two choices. One choice is to build for the journey from L1 to L20. The other choice is to build for the destination at L20.

If you build for the journey then you should be concerned about a 6 STR for the reasons that have been given to you. It is relatively common thru low and mid level quests, as well as in some of the higher level areas, to have issues with strength reduction, by whatever means.

But, if you build for the destination I'm not certain that you should be concerned. In fact, I might be inclined to support your notion of a 6 base STR if your focus is on the monk special attacks and the monk finishers.

A lot of the worries stem from the belief that every melee character must build for DPS. That is the reason for comments like this one:

You also can't take Power Attack, so in many circumstances (assuming you hit anyway) you're down another 5 damage.

The truth of the matter is that you don't need to take Power Attack and you don't need to build for DPS. If you can get your DCs high enough you can build to take advantage of the monk's special attacks and finishers. And, if you can manage to get your AC and saving throws high enough you might find that worries about strength sapping effects during the journey are over stated.

There are two things that you legitimately do need to be concerned about -- regardless of whether you build for the journey or for the destination.

First, at L20 your STR will probably be 6 base + 2 tome + 7 item + 3 exceptional item + 2 rage spell + 4 double Madstone + 2 ship buff = 24 with the chance that you'll also have Yugo pots and store pots pushing it to 30. That isn't spectacular but it isn't horrible either. The issue is that before you get there people will see your character and freak out over the low base STR number. Freaked out people means trouble convincing them to let you into the group. That makes the journey part difficult.

Second, during the difficult journey part you will find that you'll end up soloing a lot. That will be fine because your AC and saves will make you hard to hit and hard to kill. But, you'll run into difficulties with any self healing mob or any large group that includes healers. That's because damage normally relies on STR and -- even though you can't be hit yourself and even though you are hitting everything you fight on virtually every attack -- you can't do enough damage to overcome the healing.

Now, there are ways to get around both of those issues. But, I would worry more about both of them than I would about losing STR to strength sapping events or not being able to use Power Attack.

[Logicman69]

A DEX/WIS monk does not have to have a low STR score. With my Halfling Monk, I initially went 12/16/14/8/16/12 for my scores on my first life, then used the extra points in TR to pump the STR up a bit. Maxing Wis and Dex only give you a +2 to AC and a +1 to hit and +1 to your stunning fist DC. Not really worth it IMO. Better to spread it arround and raise the damage and HP some

Here is my monk at end game, for referance http://my.ddo.com/character/ghallanda/cristyle/

[eonfreon]

Just one last point I'd like to make about getting encumbered. It doesn't just come from Rays of enfeeblement. With that STR and the additional Halfling penalty to carrying capacity, all it takes is a bit of gear and treasure to encumber you.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

When planning a character you essentially have two choices. One choice is to build for the journey from L1 to L20. The other choice is to build for the destination at L20.

Or to build for Completionist, which means 1-19 a whole lot of times.

[Battery]

Well, the focus seems to be on ray of enfeeblement, but that really is a tertiary issue. Even with 6 strength I would equip a strength item. By the time I see ray of enfeeblement I would have a +6 item

No you won't, mobs are castng that as early as STK probably WW as well you won't have a +6 item earlier than level 11 at the very minimum. It would be very uncomfortable getting to level 11 or 13 being uncentered every time you encounter a caster mob.