Enough with the insta kills in epics?

[Viisari]

Although im surprised to see he outkilled the fighter.

Brimbal was just piking in the middle most of the time because if he started running after mobs they'd just be fingered by the time he got there

<edit> And really now, most of the toons in that party have almost max gear you can get, yet my wizard does cc and kills everything easily while everyone else can pike until the boss fight comes around, and people say there is balance in this game? lol

[Ormyrr]

The bard ninjakilled bats and scrorps ^^.
But Viisari's point is that the caster outkilled the entire party, and that group looks like stantard pug group (caster+healer+hitters)...

[Monkey_Archer]

One thing from P&P thats missing DDO, that I think is more relevant now then ever, is the ability for spells to give a bonus or penalty to saving throws. Typically, in P&P higher level or weaker spell effects (like debuffs, daze, etc..) would apply a penalty, while low level spells and powerful effects (like instakills) could give a bonus to saves.

Translate that into DDO's spell system, which is very different then P&P, and spells could more easily be balanced. For example, powerful AOE spells like wail could give mobs a +3 bonus to save, while single target weak spells like dominate monster could give a -3 penalty.

[Vellrad]

One thing from P&P thats missing DDO, that I think is more relevant now then ever, is the ability for spells to give a bonus or penalty to saving throws. Typically, in P&P higher level or weaker spell effects (like debuffs, daze, etc..) would apply a penalty, while low level spells and powerful effects (like instakills) could give a bonus to saves.

Translate that into DDO's spell system, which is very different then P&P, and spells could more easily be balanced. For example, powerful AOE spells like wail could give mobs a +3 bonus to save, while single target weak spells like dominate monster could give a -3 penalty.

I thind it was removed in 3rd edition, because in 2nd there was no DCs- all mobs had a constant value by which they saved, and it was mostly independant from source of spell. Lvl 1 mage had the same chance to land a charm person like lvl 20 mage.

[Rodasch]

Yeah, warforged favored souls holding a greatsword are usually evokers...

There was no evoker in that party, but they can do a very good job with instakills while also healing the party.

And that bard ain't a normal bard either

<edit> And you managed to miss the whole point anyway, if a wizard can easily outkill everything and anything in the quest, why take melees there? Why not just take another wizard so the killing is faster? And grab a wf sorc for a tank.

You implied evoker in your post, silly me for assuming you were being relevent to your posted picture.

I was being facetious anyway, guess the humor was wasted.

outkilling 5 people is not incontrovertible proof that a wizard can "easily outkill everything and anything in the quest", only that they outkilled the 5 examples you brought with you.

We have some melees (like shade) who are saying wizards almost never outkill them in any quests, so maybe it's just the quality of player involved, and not the class, eh?

Wild generalizations based on examples such as yours being posited as universally representative tend to be less than accurate. Think a little more critically before solidifying a blind conviction.

[Rodasch]

Brimbal was just piking in the middle most of the time because if he started running after mobs they'd just be fingered by the time he got there

<edit> And really now, most of the toons in that party have almost max gear you can get, yet my wizard does cc and kills everything easily while everyone else can pike until the boss fight comes around, and people say there is balance in this game? lol

Here's your problem. Instead of piking they should have been looking for stuff the casters WEREN'T already handling and killed that stuff, making the run go faster and being productive team-mates.

Just because someone CAN Solo it doesn't mean the rest of the group should mooch off them and then complain that they soloed it.

If you can't find something to kill, you're doing it wrong.

[pHo3nix]

You implied evoker in your post, silly me for assuming you were being relevent to your posted picture.

I was being facetious anyway, guess the humor was wasted.

outkilling 5 people is not incontrovertible proof that a wizard can "easily outkill everything and anything in the quest", only that they outkilled the 5 examples you brought with you.

We have some melees (like shade) who are saying wizards almost never outkill them in any quests, so maybe it's just the quality of player involved, and not the class, eh?

Wild generalizations based on examples such as yours being posited as universally representative tend to be less than accurate. Think a little more critically before solidifying a blind conviction.

This. Posting a screenshot of a wiz outkilling other party members proves nothing, someone could post a screenshot of a monk, a fighter, a barbarian or a paladin outkilling the others, should we nerf them too cause of the screenshot?

[OLDTIMEDD]

/sarcasam on ....... How about the melees just stand around blocking until arcane run out of SP? /sarcaasm off

[Viisari]

Here's your problem. Instead of piking they should have been looking for stuff the casters WEREN'T already handling and killed that stuff, making the run go faster and being productive team-mates.

Just because someone CAN Solo it doesn't mean the rest of the group should mooch off them and then complain that they soloed it.

If you can't find something to kill, you're doing it wrong.

Heh, you don't understand, do you? Let me put it simply for you:

It doesn't matter if they go looking for mobs to kill, because 75% of the time they do that, the mobs WILL ALREADY BE KILLED BY THE CASTER by the time they get there. Basically, the only time they can do anything is when all instakills are on cooldown, and if there's two casters in the party, well, heh.
And the middle of the room will be hit with wail and/or circle of death whenever there are any considerable spawns, so they can't contribute much there either.

Go find a good caster to run with and let's see what you think after that, heh.

<edit> I've done eDA with another necro specced arcane before a few times, the arcanes alone killed about 180 mobs of the ~200 in those runs...

Also note that in this run the only other toon who got to even half the casters kills was a class that can do instakills, and he had twice as many kills as anyone else, not counting the caster.

[Gildane]

Couple things about rogue assassins in epics

1) Finally a place where rogues can excel! I have a level 20 pure assassin rogue and there have been so many times i have been turned down for raids because people dont want to take rogues unless they are needed. Even then, multiclass rogues are usually preferred over a pure rogue. I am sure all of us have been in a raid to find out the rogue is some 200 hp wonder and keeps chain dying to the point they won't rez him anymore.(hint: use the myddo to check your pure rogues before you let them in,as it is not terribly hard to break 400 hp on a pure rogue).

2)Thank you Mister Barbarian for holding the mob in place so i can assassinate it, so hard to hit a moving target with assassinate = D

[Aaxeyu]

Couple things about rogue assassins in epics

1) Finally a place where rogues can excel!

What? Rogues have been very much able to excel at DPS for a long time.

[Rodasch]

Heh, you don't understand, do you? Let me put it simply for you:

It doesn't matter if they go looking for mobs to kill, because 75% of the time they do that, the mobs WILL ALREADY BE KILLED BY THE CASTER by the time they get there. Basically, the only time they can do anything is when all instakills are on cooldown, and if there's two casters in the party, well, heh.
And the middle of the room will be hit with wail and/or circle of death whenever there are any considerable spawns, so they can't contribute much there either.

Go find a good caster to run with and let's see what you think after that, heh.

<edit> I've done eDA with another necro specced arcane before a few times, the arcanes alone killed about 180 mobs of the ~200 in those runs...

Also note that in this run the only other toon who got to even half the casters kills was a class that can do instakills, and he had twice as many kills as anyone else, not counting the caster.

Why are they in the same room as the caster?

eDA I can understand, it's all in one room, but almost every other epic lets them actually get out from under the arcane's shadow and find another objective to complete or clear another path ahead of time. There's plenty of stuff to do, trust me.

And I am a caster, I don't need to "find a good caster to run with", I find good melees to run with instead who don't follow me around begging to kill stuff I've already got handled, they go pull their weight elsewhere.

I've said it before and I'll say it here, one example does not make a representative sample, nor does poor play choice indicate an inherent flaw in the game.

[Viisari]

Why are they in the same room as the caster?

eDA I can understand, it's all in one room, but almost every other epic lets them actually get out from under the arcane's shadow and find another objective to complete or clear another path ahead of time. There's plenty of stuff to do, trust me.

And I am a caster, I don't need to "find a good caster to run with", I find good melees to run with instead who don't follow me around begging to kill stuff I've already got handled, they go pull their weight elsewhere.

I've said it before and I'll say it here, one example does not make a representative sample, nor does poor play choice indicate an inherent flaw in the game.

They're not in the same room, they're in the previous room killing the one or two mobs that didn't die to wail while the caster is running ahead and killing stuff, so no, they really can't get out of the arcanes shadow.

This isn't any one example, any well played and geared archmage, palemaster or sorc will kill most of the mobs in any room well before the melees even have a chance to hit them. There are very few exceptions to this. And take note that most of that group has literally [overplayed] all noteworthy epic content well before U9 was around, so you better think twice before you start speaking like they don't know their job in any given quest.

Your sorc is not well geared, and by your posts here I'd say not really well played either, and even with that gear, if you're not outkilling everything in the party, you're DOING IT WRONG and not playing a caster to it's potential.

[Darkrok]

This. Posting a screenshot of a wiz outkilling other party members proves nothing, someone could post a screenshot of a monk, a fighter, a barbarian or a paladin outkilling the others, should we nerf them too cause of the screenshot?

Need to nerf players with good twitch skills and knowledge of quests!!! They're the real problem!

[Mastese]

It comes down to the fact that Epics are currently insufficient to meet everyone's expectations. I value the insta kill abilities of both Mages and Assassins in Epics as it is important in validating both class's power, usefulness and contributions at that level. However, it's obvious that it has also resulted in an outcry from Melees who want to feel the same sense of elite prowess and effectiveness as well. Be that as it may, if you give all classes similar and overwhelming abilities to conquer all content, Epics would seem to be anything but Epic.

So instead of nerfing individual class strengths (and associated player satisfaction), Epics need to evolve to require more balanced party efforts which focus on those discrete strengths. Mobs need to be redefined at Epic levels to include more diversity of ranks in their armaments and defenses. While some ranks remain vulnerable to insta killing strikes (but resistant to physical damages), others need full immunity and higher vulnerability to physical aggression as an offset. While we're at it, lay in traps that simply can't be ran through and would make a highly skilled trap-monkey desirable if not required. At Epic levels, we as players are highly and diversely geared/spec'd, and so should too the mobs and associated challenges of Epic adventuring. Make it so that every class has the ability to contribute something substantial to the effort while keeping the challenge of it all very high...that's what we should all be crying out for.

In the end, they need to fix Epic content to meet our expectations by fixing the content itself. Nerfing of character classes to achieve the same goal will only continue an unending seesaw of dissatisfaction and bickering for everyone.

-Mastese

[Viisari]

The bottom line that some people here seem miss is this:

A wizard with some basic raid (+2 focus, +2 tome, tod rings for +3 exceptional stat) loot and a skilled player will be able to contribute much more than most epicly geared melees can in almost any given epic quest. The same goes for divines.

With a dc of 40 for necro and 37-38 conju and enchantment you can lay down cc and still get most of the kills almost everywhere, the melees are left with the few that do make the saves against your instakills. For a fresh wizard, getting dc to over 40 in one school is not hard at all after some raiding. As you get more gear the gap will only widen, to the point that taking another melee instead of another equally geared and skilled arcane or divine caster is a wasted spot in the party.

This is why there is even less balance than there was before, if you want optimal, you go full arcane and divine and don't take any melees (except maybe an assassin III rogue), how long will it take until we start seeing parties that are looking for just one melee for tanking if there doesn't happen to be a wf sorc or a favored soul with some hp around?

Or maybe that won't happen because people are too ignorant to know how to play their class to it's full ability and won't learn how to either. Not that I really care, I still enjoy playing melees and I'm doing TR's for my fighter atm, so whatever

[Rodasch]

They're not in the same room, they're in the previous room killing the one or two mobs that didn't die to wail while the caster is running ahead and killing stuff, so no, they really can't get out of the arcanes shadow.

This isn't any one example, any well played and geared archmage, palemaster or sorc will kill most of the mobs in any room well before the melees even have a chance to hit them. There are very few exceptions to this. And take note that most of that group has literally [overplayed] noteworthy epic content well before U9 was around, so you better think twice before you start speaking like they don't know their job in any given quest.

Your sorc is not well geared, and by your posts here I'd say not really well played either, and even with that gear, if you're not outkilling everything in the party, you're DOING IT WRONG and not playing a caster to it's potential.

Make up your mind, are they running to kill stuff that gets fingered or are they staying behind killing stuff that didn't get insta-killed?

If it's the second, what exactly is wrong with killing the stuff that didn't die to the wail to free up the caster to go wail something else? How is that "useless"? It's not, it's called teamwork. It's the exact same role the caster used to fill for you, keep the stuff that is still alive from killing you while you kill away.

It doesn't take a lot of brain cells to "know their job" when that job consisted of autoattacking permaheld, permastoned, or perma-stunned monsters for autocrit. If you are going to argue it did, it makes your whole second and third paragraph hilarious. What does take some "knowing" now is figuring out how to work when the arcane isnt' your haste-and-hold bot to give you all the kill count, and now they'd rather be contributing kills directly since they can...and guess what, it's how they've played for the past 10 or so levels before epic too. If the arcane getting 2 times or more kills than you bothers you that much, I'm sorry, but that's no different than it's been since the level casters get 4th level spells (or earlier for some).

My sorc is not uber geared compared to someone decked out in epic gear no, but he still does just fine in every epic I've run him in so far as well as in elite content in amrath and pretty much anywhere else I want to go. You make the mistake of thinking you can MyDDO my gear and know my worth, which is fine, but misguided. Considering that every piece of gear I have is earned through either soloing or PuGging, and this is my first life and my sorc is my first toon here, I think he's doing pretty well. Maybe you disagree, and that's your right.

As for "well played" you haven't a clue how well I play unless you play with me or talk to someone who has. You can't judge by my "posts here" how well I play with any accuracy. There isn't a correlation. All you can do is hurl baseless ad-hominem attacks based on your annoyance with my opinion differing from yours on a matter you apparently feel so passionate about. I've not had any complaints about my skill, survivability, or dps. I typically lead killcounts even among the casters (when I bother checking kill-counts) or come in second to another sorc. If you want to assail my "skill" sight unseen, feel free to make a fool out of yourself publicly in so doing. I don't need to defend myself any further.

When you're ready to discuss this rather than just make personal attacks and derogatory assumptions with no facts to back them up, I'll be here. until then...

[altrocks]

The bottom line that some people here seem miss is this:

A wizard with some basic raid (+2 focus, +2 tome, tod rings for +3 exceptional stat) loot and a skilled player will be able to contribute much more than most epicly geared melees can in almost any given epic quest. The same goes for divines.

With a dc of 40 for necro and 37-38 conju and enchantment you can lay down cc and still get most of the kills almost everywhere, the melees are left with the few that do make the saves against your instakills. For a fresh wizard, getting dc to over 40 in one school is not hard at all after some raiding. As you get more gear the gap will only widen, to the point that taking another melee instead of another equally geared and skilled arcane or divine caster is a wasted spot in the party.

This is why there is even less balance than there was before, if you want optimal, you go full arcane and divine and don't take any melees (except maybe an assassin III rogue), how long will it take until we start seeing parties that are looking for just one melee for tanking if there doesn't happen to be a wf sorc or a favored soul with some hp around?

Or maybe that won't happen because people are too ignorant to know how to play their class to it's full ability and won't learn how to either. Not that I really care, I still enjoy playing melees and I'm doing TR's for my fighter atm, so whatever

I don't see it. I still see most pugs using the standard 1-2 divine, 1-2 arcane and the rest melee. The only real difference is that you don't need that make-up to succeed now. Any combo of classes works, mostly. Someone will always be on the top. Right now it's casters. Maybe in U11 it will be rangers again. As long as everyone has fun I don't think it matters.

[Tirisha]

That would explain it. The game cannot and should not be balanced for elite players, it should be balanced for the average paying customer, and trust me, average paying customer doesn't waltz'n'wail through epics.

Epics should be balanced for elite players however. The very definition of epic demands it. Raids should also be balanced for elite players.

Even though his experience is with elite players, doesn't mean an elite player is required for his statement to be true either. My gimpy necro Sorc will make a barbarian feel pretty useless in any epic quest too up until the point that we get to the boss and the barbarian can't hold aggro from me so I end up kiting it which just so happens to make everybodies lives easier and the barbarian feels useless again.

[Tirisha]

I don't see it. I still see most pugs using the standard 1-2 divine, 1-2 arcane and the rest melee. The only real difference is that you don't need that make-up to succeed now. Any combo of classes works, mostly. Someone will always be on the top. Right now it's casters. Maybe in U11 it will be rangers again. As long as everyone has fun I don't think it matters.

IMO:

reason for that is people either don't know about arcanes or don't trust pug arcanes to not suck horribly. An arcane that sucks is much more noticeable than a melee that sucks, so it could be avoided.

Most non-pugs I'd wager are either filled with all casters or melees are only in the party because the guildy or friend doesn't have a good caster toon off timer for said quest or it requires the presence of the melee for loot.

Most of my groups are run till the end by casters. then we swap to melees so our useful toons don't get on timer.
(note: before U9 I only had very neglected casters for the solo purpose of farming epics either solo or taking a turn doing CC, because unlike melees post U9, Pre U9 casters were a good idea to have in the party. Now it makes little sense in 95% of the game to play the melee toons I spent so much time gearing and playing)