the art of debuff

[licho]

Hi,
I would like to ask fellow players about "when to debuff".
SImply please tell when you debuff, and what you use and what for.

The reason is, that so far i found the use only of hypno and CoD, so i have feeling that im missing something important.

In up to 20 game i hardly ever has impression that debuffing is really needed.

I would also be very glad for hint if any there is a way to debuff red names.

Thank you for your help.

[Enoach]

Debuffing is an artform that requires finesse, skill and timing.

There are Single Target Debuff such as ray of Enfeblement and AoE Debuff like Waves of Fatigue.

When to use Debuffs vs Just Kill it:

1. Quests where creatures that attack you cannot die - Debuffing their strength and speed will reduce how often and hard they attack you will dealing with the objective.
2. Quests where creatures saves are high enough that without a Debuff you will have greater then 50% chance to fail. This can occur when running quests where you are under level or have been boosted by running them on Harder difficulties.

Some debuffs come with additional damage such as Cloud Kill, others work better for pulling scenerios like Mind Fog.
Both of these require setup of a trap that will utilize the Debuff to either allow for a Mass Kill or a Mass Control (Dance/Hold/Charm) due to reduced save.


Also a note on Debuffs: They usually shine more when the odds are against the party then when the odds are in the parties favor.

Debuffs do work on Named (red/purple) but do not have all of there effects. Waves of Fatigue/exhostian no longer Slow, but do apply to the Up-To-10 points of stat damage allowed. When dealing with a Boss a -5 to hit, -5 to saves can be an advantage. Curse is an additional stacking debuff above and beyond stat damage and applies an addtional -4 to saves/to-hit, it is blocked by any boss that has a Mantle that blocks level 4 and below spells.

[TheDearLeader]

On my Spellsinger (not a wizard, but definitely a CC caster),

I Dancing Ball. Maybe Mind Fog. When they're all gathered in there, I Crushing Despair.

The Wizzy to my left, or the Wizzy to my right, Wails. Things die.

Symbol of Death is a good one for Arcanes now. Throw that, let them set it off, kite them through it a few times - lots of neg levels to harm their saves.

Edit : And yes, as the poster above me mentions, Ray of Enfeeblement/Waves of Exhaustion are nice on Rednames. A Melee with a Strength Sapping weapon doesn't hurt, either.

[GotSomeQuestions]

Waves of Exhaustion on bosses is a good example. It has two effects: lowering Str (to-hit and damage) and lowering Dex (AC and reflex saves).

In some fights, if the main tank is using AC to avoid some fraction of the boss's attacks (more common on highly geared toons), the extra boost to effective AC (lower boss to-hit = higher player AC) from Waves is a huge help, and will make things much easier for the healers as well.

On other bosses, like Malicia, you're looking at an AC that's challenging for some players to hit every time. Throwing Waves helps them avoid missing, and can let players keep Power Attack on for more damage.

Finally, if you're going to be using a lot of reflex save spells on the boss, the dex penalty will help you out, especially for Devils on hard/elite difficulty, when their Evasion means they take 0 damage unless you can make them fail the save.

When in doubt, throw Waves on the boss. It can't hurt.

Cloudkill is another good boss debuff, it's the only high level cloud spell that properly applies a concealment penalty to purple named bosses (but no penalty to your fellow players). That's 20% of the boss's melee attacks that just miss, meaning fewer heals are required and players are in less danger of dying.

Solid Fog, like, Crushing Despair, is an excellent aoe save debuff. Use it with Web for great results, or throw it down and cast your reflex-based nukes.

[Tuney]

Also with the spell pass , a few differnt debuffs gained small 'kicker debuffs' for a few seconds to the save they are trying to pass.

Like Crushing Despair , on a successful save 'most' 'non boss coded' creatures will gain a very short like 10 second debuff to will to allow you to try to get though.

As Enoach said, Debuffing is shines more for a 'weaker' party but use of debuffs on boss mobs can lower the stress on the group as a whole for all party types.

One combo that I like with debuffing is Mind fog with Otto's 'Disco ball', and Glitter dust. All three are will saves and if you have highten and want to save more sp, only Highten the mind fog as it lowers will by 10.

[bigolbear]

when and how i debuf:

on my wizard:
waves of exhaust and cloudkill (for concealment) against raid bosses/epic bosses.
ray of enfeeblement on dangerous non red name things rogues are hitting.
gliter dust when rolling with rogues.
hypno then masshold on epics, or occasionaly when swamped on other settings.
symbol of weakness on bosses. (from a cliky).

im a fan of the folowing combos which involve debufs.

hammer and anvil:
Ottos + cloudkill + gliterdust + symbol of death (the anvil) folowed by : Circle of death + wail of the banshee OR hypno + hold OR for overkill and lots of mobs hypno then hold then COD then wail.(the hammer)

It does cost a lot but theres very little standing at the end, this works very well on epics for clearing LARGE groups, note its handy to have a few grunts around to mop up any survivors.


Disco inferno:
ottos + firewall + cloudkill/acidfog/solidfog/mindfog/gliterdust.

strugling with landing that mass hold? try hypno + scare first - thats a guarenteed -5 will save.


On my sorc(WF multiclass mele sorc build - tukaw):
This build has mimal DC's but some times a caster is required to crowd control - heres how i manage that.

enervation: average -4 to all saves, improved shatermantle weapon to reduce spell res, wounding weapon to reduce fort saves and go with flesh to stone.

planing on acid fog for reducing enemy ac by 4 by the time im at 20 for epics.

On my old wizard:
i had repeater proficiency for maintaining spell points in prolonged fights - this is PRE sla days. I used a wounding of puncturing repeater to hammer down fort saves on hard targets.

[Feithlin]

Some debuffs are interesting because many of them have no save (and some no SR check) and some added effects:
* Ray of Enfeeblement: no save but SR check
* Touch of Idiocy: same, -5 Will save as added effect
* Crushing despair: no save on its added effect (-5 Will save)
* Enervation/Energy drain: no save but SR check
* Waves of fatigue: same
* Acid fog: no save on its added effect (-4 AC)
* Power word: Blind (great with rogues in the group): no save but duration depends on the HP of the target
* Waves of exhaustion: no save but SR check
* Power word: Stun: similar to PW: Blind