Help with Free Thinking

[flameninja]

Ahhh... the source of more wars and deaths than anything else man has started.

Personally I hope and pray (odd word I know) that there's nothing whatsoever after I pop my clogs (die). An eternity of anything must get boring at some point. I think the closest we've got is the part during an operation between "Count to 10...." and ".....Welcome back, how do you feel?".

Having a gf who's also into questionable religious practices (avoiding a name on forum rule grounds, nothing dodgy ) I always try to point out the massive inconsistencies in every religion in existence (again being intentionally vague and none-specific) but to her belief is more important than fact so I kinda gave up long ago.

The only being in existence I/we can prove is ourselves so the most likely situation is that only I exist in all "creation" and you lot are all being dreamt up by me. With some people I know that's a hell of a scary thought but it takes all sorts, ya know!?

Now as far as the gf in the OP is concerned from vast personal experience I'd recommend what others have said and not try to force anything. From the sounds of it you're looking to maintain the relationship and making her choose between you and religion would probably come out badly for you. Therefore my suggestion if you're at the point that you're looking at choosing to split if nothing changes, try simply pointing out things that conflict with her beliefs without drawing any conclusions yourself. Allow her to do so if she's going to at all. As has been said if she's completely beyond any kind of logical questioning to allow this then I'd have to say you might be wasting your time. If there's enough of an issue for you, you may just want to think of calling it a day before things get more complicated.

Hope any/some of that helps, as has been said religion is a complicated setup and not all these various beliefs can be right, you can only show proof that argues with them and go from there.

Good luck either way!



Well in that case you need to pick between your happiness and hers, if you think you can cope with a gf who's in tears as often as you say then all power to you, I honestly don't think I could. You're likely to end up growing old alone as any body can only take so much of that kind of stress. There's something to say for thinking of your own needs and wants as well as others'.

P.S. If I may ask, (and feel free to decline to answer) but how old (approximately) are you both?

We are both 17. (Yes, I know. Teenage thinking, worries and well...yeah. Please dont point that out.)

[flameninja]

One question myself and others have failed to ask. Just how old are you and your girlfriend anyways? The reason I ask is because a lot of your beliefs and ideas from when you are younger change as you grow older and experience more that life has to offer. It may be that all she needs is time to grow up some more. Or maybe not.

Also, whether you believe in it or not, I would suggest you find a priest/rabbi/minister to talk to. Not all of them are the "Fires of Damnation" type and you could probably find one that could help her with her fears. Just one suggestion among many.

I'll see if I can find one...many around here are...what you said. I will seek one out with an open mind though.

[Nysrock]

We are both 17. (Yes, I know. Teenage thinking, worries and well...yeah. Please dont point that out.)

Well all I will say is that at 17 you both have a LOT of growing up ahead of you. Your ways of thinking can, and most likely will, change as you grow older and experience more of the world around you. Whether you do that alone or together......well that's only something a higher power then myself could answer.

Either way, I wish you both the best of luck in everything you do. Hopefully you will find some comfort for you both in the words of others here.

[Buggss]

We are both 17. (Yes, I know. Teenage thinking, worries and well...yeah. Please dont point that out.)

Absolutely not, in all honesty the younger the better. A lifetime of difficulty with such things can have just as much of an effect on your health as it sounds like it's having on hers. Assuming you're not exaggerating about her depression (which I'm afraid it sounds like) and if you're absolutely sure she's not likely to change you're likely to have to choose between your health and hers (although the status quo sounds like it's affecting both.

Many couples I know have very different beliefs and have managed to integrate the parts of each aspect of their lives to allow both to be satisfies avoiding any major detriment to the other. This is certainly not easy but as both mean so much they've managed it. This is the state you're looking for but there may be a point where it turns out to be impossible as some of my friends have discovered. Break-ups have been extremely painful but with time the resulting situations have always been better than staying together in a painful relationship.

Again, you simply have choices to make and thinking to do. There seem to be plenty of considerate people here to help and advise you and are happy to help however we can.

[altrocks]

Disclaimer: Replying to this thread and OP as a relationship issue that just happens to involve religion/faith/belief.

I think this thread is about fear controlling you, and not your beliefs or religion.

Now fear is a very VERY powerful thing. But knowledge will trump it every single time. *snip*

I would contest that. Experience can often trump fear, but just knowledge rarely does the job, and it does it poorly when it does it at all.

Speaking from professional experiences, anxieties and phobias are best dealt with through repeated positive experiences related to the source of the fear. In this case, maybe long-term positive contact with someone who is also highly religious within the same faith but not of the fire-and-brimstone persuasion would be the best answer. Preferably a religious figure of prominence of some sort like a pastor or minister or priest. If this isn't an option, as some versions of Christianity are inherently of the fire-and-brimstone persuasion, then it will be exceedingly difficult to change anything about her anxieties since only a higher authority within the hierarchy would be able to substitute as the meaningful experience. Unless you know a way to directly talk with God and/or Jesus and get direct, timely and meaningful responses, that is.

Treating maladaptive behavior directly related to religious belief is one of the toughest things to do because it's very personal, intangible and yet extremely powerful and, in this case at least, ingrained into the person's self-identity. Even if you could change it, her entire mental image of the world and herself would have to necessarily change with it. People who have that strong of a belief in anything tend to define themselves largely based on those beliefs. People kill and die for those beliefs every day. It's not some character flaw or minor bit of delusion. It would be like trying to get a rational scientist to accept that magic is real and everything they thought they knew was completely wrong.

And when you threaten someone's identity in that way it can end very, very badly depending on the person. One of the major factors in successful relationships is sharing core values, thought not specifically beliefs. If her level of belief is at the point where you're indicating it is at, then the best advice to follow might already be in the thread:

Get a new GF

Not saying she's the wrong person for you or anything like that, but if it's that big of an issue NOW, what happens later on? Assuming you want the relationship to continue to its biological and societal conclusion, what will be involved with a wedding involving her family and faith? What about dealing with her mother and your mother-in-law that you seem to blame this fear of her's on? What happens if/when you have children and have to decide how to raise them, what to teach them, etc?

I don't know the answers to those questions, btw. I'm just saying those are things you need to think about, seriously, in any long-term relationship. When you can answer yourself on those questions then you can figure things out for yourself.

[Cyprine]

here is some reading
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Main_Page
http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/...oundation.html

and if you prefer listening
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_6-iVz1R0o

[Teech]

I'm the type of person who questions assumptions all the time so take this as you will.

She was raised as a christian and is scared about everything because of it.

Assumption. Also exaggeration.

She gets into tears every time she even kisses me due to her Fear of the christian god.

Are you implying that she believes that Christianity does not allow for kissing? Then her fear is not of God but stems from an error in her belief.

She (My gf) only believes in Christianity because she is afraid of what will happen to her if she doesn't.

Are you implying that she is afraid of her parents if she doesn't believe, or are you saying that she is afraid of God if she doesn't believe. If it is the latter, her belief is not out of fear, but fear comes out of her belief.

I need some help. She only thinks like this because her mom drilled it into her head so much that she can even think to figure out what she needs in life other then this so called "God." She will not think for herself.

Assumption.

I need help teaching her how and why to think freely away from this type of belief. I hate that she is so scared of everything that is simply basic Humanity.

Really? Unclear and exaggeration.
This is my advice if you will.

Be clear. Help her to be clear as well. Help each other understand what it is you both truly believe in without making assumptions about each other and about each others' beliefs.

You seem to think that she is believing in God out of fear. The question then is, what does she fear? She cannot believe in God out of fear of God. That is circular.

Is she, instead, fearful for you and this relationship because of her belief in God?
That is another issue entirely.

[flameninja]

I'm the type of person who questions assumptions all the time so take this as you will.

Gladly

Assumption. Also exaggeration.

She even says this after she calms herself from an...um...I'll call it episode.

Are you implying that she believes that Christianity does not allow for kissing? Then her fear is not of God but stems from an error in her belief.

She see's it as a type of fornication, therefore, to her, its wrong.

Are you implying that she is afraid of her parents if she doesn't believe, or are you saying that she is afraid of God if she doesn't believe. If it is the latter, her belief is not out of fear, but fear comes out of her belief.

She fears an ever lasting life in fire. As I said, blame her mom. (She does have a dad, but her mom keeps them far apart.)

Assumption.

This is your assumption that my assumption is an assumption. And she says it all of the time.

Really? Unclear and exaggeration.

I'm simply stating that when she is going about her day to day life, she sometimes comes over to give me a hug or something and then about ten minutes later...Tears.

[Teech]

You're right. I mis-spoke. I do not know you nor her nor the situation.
Good luck.

[flameninja]

You're right. I mis-spoke. I do not know you nor her nor the situation.
Good luck.

This actually shocked me a bit. You are the only person to have ever put down an argument and have someone to adherence you in that argument...and you accept it.

Thank you. I really thank you for doing that. The forums need more people like you.

[katana_one]

Plain and simple: she needs counseling.

I would recommend starting with asking her to speak with her priest/preacher/deacon/whatever about these issues. You may be able to get her fears calmed without any need to undermine her faith, which would be a win/win in my book.

Good luck.

P.S. Realize that if these issues can be fixed at all, it will still take time to do so (possibly a lot of time). Also be prepared for the likely possibility of ending the relationship. Ultimately, if you cannot accept her religious beliefs, then you don't have much of a future together.

[Ungood]

While I am not sure where this topic falls, I am a bit confused. It seems as if you are asking a bunch of gamers on a random forum how to destroy/remove/change (?) your girl friends belief?

I am going to agree with the others that the correct path in any situation like this is to find a partner that already shares your belief and ideals before you try to start a relationship.

I believe that no good will come of trying to change someone else especially when it involves their faith, particularly when it comes to a romantic relationship.

[katz]

few points... if you don't really believe in a "god" being per se, but you believe that there is something, you are not athiest, you are, i believe, agnostic

but on to your girlfriend

i am Christian. if she is living in constant fear that every action is wrong and will result in hellfire, that is the wrong outlook on life. i strongly suggest she find counseling and/or a church with a different outlook. fear is a strong motivator, but it is NOT what is taught in the Bible... only what is taught by Bible/thumpers. she probably crys when she kisses you either because she worries about being "unequally yoked" with an unbeliever (you) or "avoid the very appearance of evil" (she's kissing you, so in today's very socially free world it looks like you are already... doin' it... evil)
don't argue with her faith. faith is a VERY powerful and ingrained motivator... you don't have to become Christian yourself, obviously, but try to learn a bit about it so that you know more about what she is (or might be) thinking and feeling... there are a lot of... odd(?) demoninations out there, unfortunately, and they all lump under the heading of "Christianity"... makes it hard to determine what... exactly... is the problem
she doesn't need to turn away from God, but she does need to stop living in fear.

[katana_one]

she doesn't need to turn away from God, but she does need to stop living in fear.

Well said.

+1 if I could (apparently I already gave you rep for something else)

[flameninja]

few points... if you don't really believe in a "god" being per se, but you believe that there is something, you are not athiest, you are, i believe, agnostic

but on to your girlfriend

i am Christian. if she is living in constant fear that every action is wrong and will result in hellfire, that is the wrong outlook on life. i strongly suggest she find counseling and/or a church with a different outlook. fear is a strong motivator, but it is NOT what is taught in the Bible... only what is taught by Bible/thumpers. she probably crys when she kisses you either because she worries about being "unequally yoked" with an unbeliever (you) or "avoid the very appearance of evil" (she's kissing you, so in today's very socially free world it looks like you are already... doin' it... evil)
don't argue with her faith. faith is a VERY powerful and ingrained motivator... you don't have to become Christian yourself, obviously, but try to learn a bit about it so that you know more about what she is (or might be) thinking and feeling... there are a lot of... odd(?) demoninations out there, unfortunately, and they all lump under the heading of "Christianity"... makes it hard to determine what... exactly... is the problem
she doesn't need to turn away from God, but she does need to stop living in fear.

Thank you, I gave you +1. I believe she is Methodist, but her church doesn't comply completely with the way Methodist are (they made up some stuff on top of it, or removed from it. Idk)

[flameninja]

Plain and simple: she needs counseling.

I would recommend starting with asking her to speak with her priest/preacher/deacon/whatever about these issues. You may be able to get her fears calmed without any need to undermine her faith, which would be a win/win in my book.

Good luck.

P.S. Realize that if these issues can be fixed at all, it will still take time to do so (possibly a lot of time). Also be prepared for the likely possibility of ending the relationship. Ultimately, if you cannot accept her religious beliefs, then you don't have much of a future together.

I can except them entirely. Its just that I cant live with the thought of her torturing herself like this.

[NeutronStar]

Alright, before I say anything about the actual topic I have to warn every christian person that in this topic, I will have to say a few things that are "Bad" according to your "God." So, unless you can keep an open mind, please close this window.

My girlfriend and I have one argument over and over all the time. Belief.

She was raised as a christian and is scared about everything because of it. She gets into tears every time she even kisses me due to her Fear of the christian god.

I am not an atheist, but I do not believe in any "God" at the moment. I am just trying to find out what really is happening and what will.

She (My gf) only believes in Christianity because she is afraid of what will happen to her if she doesn't. She becomes very sick at the though of said fear, and is even crying in bed as I type this.

I need some help. She only thinks like this because her mom drilled it into her head so much that she can even think to figure out what she needs in life other then this so called "God." She will not think for herself.

I need help teaching her how and why to think freely away from this type of belief. I hate that she is so scared of everything that is simply basic Humanity.

Please, I have no problem with any type of religion, belief, ect., but this has got to stop... she has just cried herself to sleep while "Praying"... Help me.

As others have said...this is not meant to be a troll reply:


Honestly, you cannot "make" her do anything including learning to think for herself.

She has not been given the tools to do so. You cannot "give" them to her in any reasonably short time period. She will have to learn this over YEARS.

Her parents did her a HORRIBLE disservice by not teaching her how to think for herself and the fact you came here on the DDO message board says to me you've become desperate. I do not think you will have the patience to "wait this out."

My advice is to let her go. This is one you CANNOT "win."

She's going to have to do this by herself over several years.

Sorry.

I can except them entirely. Its just that I cant live with the thought of her torturing herself like this.

Just saw this. I'd like to point out that now two people are torturing themselves. Not good.

One last piece of advice I can give you is that people are stronger than you think. At least stop torturing yourself. She'll do the same eventually.

[katana_one]

I can except them entirely. Its just that I cant live with the thought of her torturing herself like this.

If you could accept them entirely, then you would not have created this thread. If you could accept that kissing is a mortal sin in her eyes, then you would stop. kissing. her.

Again, I recommend counseling, starting with speaking to a church official to see if her fears are unfounded according to the basic tenets of her faith.

[flameninja]

As others have said...this is not meant to be a troll reply:


Honestly, you cannot "make" her do anything including learning to think for herself.

She has not been given the tools to do so. You cannot "give" them to her in any reasonably short time period. She will have to learn this over YEARS.

Her parents did her a HORRIBLE disservice by not teaching her how to think for herself and the fact you came here on the DDO message board says to me you've become desperate. I do not think you will have the patience to "wait this out."

My advice is to let her go. This is one you CANNOT "win."

She's going to have to do this by herself over several years.

Sorry.

Going with what you call "win," The battle hasn't defeated my patience yet.

Is there anyway I can show her how I think freely, how to "Teach" her over a long period of time?

edit- I just read that first sentence I wrote...I didnt mean it to sound that smart-a**ish. I meant it to be a true statement.

[katz]

(they made up some stuff on top of it, or removed from it. Idk)

red flag right there. definitely try to *gently* steer her towards a different church... doesn't even have to be a different denomination, but she needs different guidance than she is currently getting. i'm not sure how much i can, or even should, say on this forum... but the Bible, which should be the basis of all Christianity, says right in it you are not to add to or subtract from it.

or a funner way to describe it... God wrote the DM manual, and the players aren't allowed to use their own house rules!