PSA Haste does not waste a valuable spell slot

[furbyoats]

hai guys...as a player with a sorc as his main (on his 4th life also), i can assure you that haste is worth carrying...

see, it's neat how we arcanes can kill things quickly. however, sometimes sustained dps is king.

let me put it this way, if i'm on my fvs and you refuse to haste me because it is a waste of a slot, then i hope you can self heal. and i will, in fact, send tells to the other party members to make sure you get all the aggro.

i could go on but...quit whining, carry haste. no one should reasonably expect a sorc to carry extend with the SF feat for the pre....that does not excuse dumping an extremely useful group buff for a spell that is...wait, what is in the 4th level slot that is so insanely important?

but, if you really wish to dump haste...that's gravy. i hope you enjoy soloing everything including raids, because you will get blacklisted.

cheers

[Fenrisulven6]

Really? You're going to ban people because they don't carry the buff spell you want?

Drink a pot. Buy clickies.

[Angel_Barchild]

My Gods this is a monster. Well I'm a bit of a thread killer so I'll give it a shot. Maybe my posting will end this thing.

I like haste.

[grodon9999]

Really? You're going to ban people because they don't carry the buff spell you want?

Ban is too strong of a word . . . "not run with" is a better way to put it. If I'm putting a group together to do a raid/quest and a person doesn't have what I want I will not take them.

And I'm also very disappointed that this thread hasn't reached 35 pages yet, we can do it!

[grodon9999]

Also, if you desire haste so badly, you can get yourself the goggles of time sensing which can later be epiced, which is just about as good as a sorcerers non extented hastes.

Done it, have the clickies, will still kick and reform if a caster doesn't have haste.

[Fenrisulven6]

So you have the haste you need, you're just going to ban them because you don't agree with their spell selection.

Like putting a cleric on a dnp list because he didn't carry Greater Command....

[BangsLiekWhoa]

I can support hitting 35 pages!

Also, why would you NOT carry haste on your arcane? It is generally the first spell of its level I take.

[grodon9999]

So you have the haste you need, you're just going to ban them because you don't agree with their spell selection.

yes. I absolutely will not take somebody who cannot do what I want them to do in a quest.

Like putting a cleric on a dnp list because he didn't carry Greater Command....

That's a silly comparison, but I won't take a divine who doesn't heal.

My Ranger has the FoM boots from VoN, should I not carry that spell anymore because I myself don't need it?

[BangsLiekWhoa]

So you have the haste you need, you're just going to ban them because you don't agree with their spell selection.

Like putting a cleric on a dnp list because he didn't carry Greater Command....

He simply means that he will choose not to group with them.

Haste provides a boost for the whole party which increases DPS overall and gets things dead faster. The faster things die, the less healing is needed and the faster you are able to complete your goal. To me it is a common sense decision to take haste as a spell as soon as possible. <-- This coming from a guy who plays more casters than "DPS" characters.

I think the reason a lot of people don't take it is because their e-peen feels larger if they have more kills on the xp report sheet rather than just knowing that they helped increase the overall DPS of the group and helped ALL the kills happen faster (not to mention helped the divines by making them not have to heal as much).

Just my 2cp on the matter.

[BangsLiekWhoa]

yes. I absolutely will not take somebody who cannot do what I want them to do in a quest.

To be fair, this is more understandable if you have actually played with Junk a bit. He does not usually just go for normal runs of stuff for "completions." This is a guy who runs 3 back-to-back ToD groups on hard or elite twice every week where I have rarely seen a fail, and they always kill Sully. He does most of his questing on hard/elite in much the same manner and doesn't want someone there who is not able/willing to help the party to the best of their ability. I don't blame him.

The fact that he is picky like this makes his runs almost always smooth as can be.

EDIT: He won't boot you just for not having the "optimum" gear or build, he just wants you to be able to contribute to the party in the best way possible. For arcanes, dropping a haste/rage once in a while is very helpful to the melees.

[varusso]

And what exactly is your point?

Can you read what I already wrote?



Sure you can play a character however you like, I can as well. I can make a cleric with 8 starting wisdom, completely unable to heal with all points dumped into strength + con and play him as a fighter. Doing so doesnt mean that this is a good way to play a cleric, nor do people have to let me into their groups if I choose to make such a character. I prefer people to play classes for what they are best designed to do.

Most sorcerers do not take Extend anymore, if they ever even did. Non extended hastes are pretty useless throughout the whole game, they last a very short time. If I want hastes, rages, blurs and GH, then I will make sure to look for a bard or a wizard, and dont mind having a sorc on top to take a pure DPS slot. Having a wizard or a bard do buffing + CCs and a sorc DPS is a perfect combination.

Some sorcerers dont take GH anymore as well. Neither GH or Haste are actually needed to successfully play the game, and sorcs do not need to take either just because the fighter classes want them. Of course most sorcerers do take blur / haste / GH etc, but that is only because they think they have to, when they actually dont.

Also, if you desire haste so badly, you can get yourself the goggles of time sensing which can later be epiced, which is just about as good as a sorcerers non extented hastes.

Yes, actually I can read what you wrote, but apparently you cannot.
"Class X is not for this" says "dont pigeonhole them into this".
"Class X X is for THIS" says "pigeonhole them into THIS".

As I said already, these ARE the standard views of how a class should be played. But lets not pretend that you (or anyone else) is not supporting the idea that a given class "should" do something, when this *IS* how your thought process works, by your own words. Whether or not you agree that a class should provide X thing to the party, you still have a preconceived notion of what they should do. Its no different than anyone else's preconceived notions, other than the popularity of that expectation among the general population.

A sorc *IS* designed to play best as a magical DPS toon -- they can do other things if you work at it, but thats where their innate strength lies. A sorc can have plenty of DPS, yet still slot and caste haste (and rage) to help keep the group moving along quicker and smoother.

What an individual arcane chooses to slot or not slot is entirely up to them. Their choices, however, will have a DIRECT impact on how the rest of the playerbase sees them, in terms of efficiency and even common sense. Like it or not, that IS the way it is.

And no, a single clicky is not as good as an arcane's cast haste. The arcane has MANY more on tap. Unless you have multiple clickies of similar duration, they are far inferior. Aside from the fact that a clicky for every occasion eats up pack space quickly. This I know from experience as a click-o-holic

[Fejj]

What an individual arcane chooses to slot or not slot is entirely up to them. Their choices, however, will have a DIRECT impact on how the rest of the playerbase sees them, in terms of efficiency and even common sense. Like it or not, that IS the way it is.

So any character TWFing before lvl 12 should be blacklisted for not being optimal?
So any DEX build should be blacklisted for not being optimal
So any non Khopesh uses should be blacklisted
So any greatsword wieling THFers should be blacklisted (SOS excluded)
So any AA or Pew Pewer should be blacklisted

Since they all have an impact on the group ... why is it different?

You are still wrong. Not about haste, but your attitude towards other players.

[varusso]

So any character TWFing before lvl 12 should be blacklisted for not being optimal?
So any DEX build should be blacklisted for not being optimal
So any non Khopesh uses should be blacklisted
So any greatsword wieling THFers should be blacklisted (SOS excluded)
So any AA or Pew Pewer should be blacklisted

Since they all have an impact on the group ... why is it different?

You are still wrong. Not about haste, but your attitude towards other players.

I am arguing rage/haste,not any of those other things. If you want to debate them, you are welcome to do so. Do not try to imply that i am making any other arguments than the ones I am ACTUALLY making.,

So I am "wrong" In my assertion that every player has the right to play however they like, but they also accept the responsibility for the consequences those choices bring, whatever they may be, especially if it means they cannot/will not be able to perform the specific task that a group expects of them? In other words, no one can FORCE you to play any way you dont want to play, so long as you accept that YOUR choices will define how others see you?

And you think that is WRONG?

Which part exactly? The part about players being allowed to play as they like, or the part about players being accountable for their own actions?

[Missing_Minds]

To be fair, this is more understandable if you have actually played with Junk a bit. He does not usually just go for normal runs of stuff for "completions." This is a guy who runs 3 back-to-back ToD groups on hard or elite twice every week where I have rarely seen a fail, and they always kill Sully. He does most of his questing on hard/elite in much the same manner and doesn't want someone there who is not able/willing to help the party to the best of their ability. I don't blame him.

The fact that he is picky like this makes his runs almost always smooth as can be.

EDIT: He won't boot you just for not having the "optimum" gear or build, he just wants you to be able to contribute to the party in the best way possible. For arcanes, dropping a haste/rage once in a while is very helpful to the melees.

Ah, that does shed a lot more light on his opinions. Playstyle as I said earlier. Yeah, I'd be wanting the same in that setup as well.

[muffinlad]

So any character TWFing before lvl 12 should be blacklisted for not being optimal?
So any DEX build should be blacklisted for not being optimal
So any non Khopesh uses should be blacklisted
So any greatsword wieling THFers should be blacklisted (SOS excluded)
So any AA or Pew Pewer should be blacklisted

Since they all have an impact on the group ... why is it different?

You are still wrong. Not about haste, but your attitude towards other players.

This is a Strawman Arguement. Let's not argue things he never said, or imply other arguements that are not germaine to the topic at hand.

As a party leader, you are looking for tools to complete a raid or quest. It is your job to get the best tools for the party, and haste is the best tool for sustained DPS. Arcanes who do not carry haste, or who will not use haste as required by the party needs/leader request should either:

A) Start their own party
B) Get Haste.

This is a game, not a civil rights issue. If you show up with a catcher's mit to a football game and you are not willing to change into your uniform, you can "play first base" on the sidelines.

muffinhaster

[Aashrym]

So you have the haste you need, you're just going to ban them because you don't agree with their spell selection.

Like putting a cleric on a dnp list because he didn't carry Greater Command....

There's no difference between building a party that a person wants it than there is building a character the way a person wants it. If Junk wants to build a party and assign haste to a caster that is what a raid leader does. He can't do that if the caster refuses to carry haste so he needs a caster who fits what he's looking for in the raid.

I'm normally jump in to follow and enjoy myself on whatever. I'm not interested in checkout what the other players can do and just let someone else lead, then do what they ask me to do. Nice and simple. So I carry what I expect they will want or need. Also nice and simple.

I do this because in this game we assign tasks and we do the assigned task to complete the objective as a team. There are common expectations and we should try to meet those common expectations, or deal with the fact that our choices not to meet said expectations with result in being passed over for another player who does meet what the party leader is looking for.

If you decide not to carry a spell the party leader is looking for you can expect that they might just want to replace you with someone who does. That won't stop you from playing the game the way you want since you can make your own group, solo, or run with a static group of friends. It also won't stop someone else from playing the way they want so don't get offended if someone does make team building choice based on your character building choices.

[Chai]

Also, if you desire haste so badly, you can get yourself the goggles of time sensing which can later be epiced, which is just about as good as a sorcerers non extented hastes.

Yeah, and the hilarity ensues when we use this same argument on everything else.

Hey you want a heal? buy some pots. What do you mean it doesnt work like that?
Fire resist? Shoulda bought pots / wands. It burns when you PVE? what?
FOM? every one of you shoulda farmed those boots. Now youre held and cant perform your role.

How far does the "im not a team player, BYO_" rabbithole go?

To put this into perspective, we play a game where the spreadsheet gamers factor in the time between when they hit their boost and when they start swinging again as a loss in DPS, and here we are listening to people banter that if we want haste we should stop and drink pots every 30 seconds?

Ludicrous? This threads gone to plaid!!

[Fejj]

This is a Strawman Arguement.

I think it is right on topic

The assertion is that a sorcerer whom does not carry Haste / Rage is the not "optimal" for the party (weather for DPS or speed or other reason)

Therefore, said sorcerer will be dropped for a more optimal caster (one with haste / rage).
Then blacklisted.

If you (as a party leader) are filtering based on "optimal" builds why is my argument wrong?

[Fejj]

I am arguing rage/haste,not any of those other things.
.... [snip] ......
And you think that is WRONG?

Which part exactly? The part about players being allowed to play as they like, or the part about players being accountable for their own actions?

The part where you assume everyone else has to think like you.
The part where you are the authority on what is best for me or the group.
The part where you continue to say LA LA LA LA when others make a valid argument
The part where you are not open to consider that others play differently
The part where you establish a "expected and required" layout for anyone else.
The part where nothing is open to debate, just your opinion matters

PS - when this thread goes down, i will die a little inside
PPS - If you think the thread is just about haste/rage reread page 1-34. It has become much more.

[grodon9999]

Ludicrous? This threads gone to plaid!!

We will be ludicrous at page 35, plaid requires 40 pages.