PSA Haste does not waste a valuable spell slot

[Missing_Minds]

Here is the actual opinion: If YOU cannot be bothered to bring the basic spells and gear expected of you when you jump in a group,

Fixed it for you. The only way for that to be fact is if you were talking about predetermined spells that you would have no matter the choices you could make. I.E. cleric and cure spells, elemental savants and SLAs, druids and summon animal (if we ever get druids.)

Fact: Haste is useful in all quests, however, to what degree is debatable.

Fact: Depending on build and playstye, other spells may have a greater "useful" value than haste.

Opinion: Repeating yourself does not improve your point of view.

[mobrien316]

OK one more time: It is NOT elitist to expect someone to carry BASIC things into a group. That word does not mean what you apparently think it means. See my last couple of posts for what it ACTUALLY means.

Here is the actual fact: If YOU cannot be bothered to bring the basic spells and gear expected of you when you jump in a group, YOU are the one being difficult and being a jerk, NOT the group. There are spells and items that I carry that I do not personally use when in groups, but I bring them ANYWAY because I know the GROUP will want or need them. If you dont have the resources (IE too low lvl or cant afford something) that is one thing. We are talking about basic spells that you have plenty of spell slots for. The only way you would NOT have room for them in ANY build would be to deliberately build in such a way so as not to have them -- in which case you are not thinking about the group, therefor you are not WANTED in the group.

Once again, if you are not willing to put the group ahead of yourself, then anyone who does not want to group with you as a result of that is fully entitled to do so. Yes, carrying basic spells such as rage and haste is one of those things. You can do whatever else you want on your toon and STILL bring the red n green.

And for what its worth, the person who insists they are going to do their own thing, regardless of how it impacts the group, and says things like "if you want X then suck a pot" -- yeah THAT guy is much closer to the definition of an elitist (specifically an elitist JERK) than the guy who asks you to bring basic expectations to the group.

Player #1: Hey, anyone want to play DDO?

Player #2: It depends. What is your build? What spells do you carry? What gear do you have?

Player #1: Why does that matter? Can't we just play and if you don't like grouping with me you don't have to do it again?

Player #2: Obviously you are an elitist, selfish jerk. Consider yourself booted, squelched, and banned for life.



Yeah, I see where you are coming from now. That makes much more sense than simply grouping with someone for a quest that will last a couple of minutes and then deciding if they are a good player or not...

[Aashrym]

Fact: Depending on build and playstye, other spells may have a greater "useful" value than haste.

That's actually opinion too. A person can't state that it's opinion that haste is better and then state it's fact another spell might better. That's just an opposing opinion. Just sayin'

Running shroud on pots and clickies is nasty, and that's what started this whole thread. I would consider it popular opinion that haste is a very useful spell at this point.

[varusso]

Fixed it for you. The only way for that to be fact is if you were talking about predetermined spells that you would have no matter the choices you could make. I.E. cleric and cure spells, elemental savants and SLAs, druids and summon animal (if we ever get druids.)

Fact: Haste is useful in all quests, however, to what degree is debatable.

Fact: Depending on build and playstye, other spells may have a greater "useful" value than haste.

Opinion: Repeating yourself does not improve your point of view.

When you are in a group if YOU cannot be bothered to bring the things the GROUP wants, then YOU are the problem, not the group. That is a FACT. Play your silly "fixed" games all you want; it wont change that. When you are soloing, what you want is the only thing that really matters. When you are in a group, and you are too self-centered to bend your neck and acquiesce to the wants or needs of the group, YOU are the one being a jerk, and you deserve any boot/blacklist you get.

Fact: Ignoring the FACTS that have been stated over an over, just because you dont like them, does not make them NOT facts.

[varusso]

Player #1: Hey, anyone want to play DDO?

Player #2: It depends. What is your build? What spells do you carry? What gear do you have?

Player #1: Why does that matter? Can't we just play and if you don't like grouping with me you don't have to do it again?

Player #2: Obviously you are an elitist, selfish jerk. Consider yourself booted, squelched, and banned for life.



Yeah, I see where you are coming from now. That makes much more sense than simply grouping with someone for a quest that will last a couple of minutes and then deciding if they are a good player or not...

Not even close to what i said. If that is honestly what YOU read into it, its pretty obvious now where the problem lies.
If you are deliberately twisting what i said to support an invalid point, its pretty obvious where the problem lies.

[grodon9999]

Really?

You are seriously claiming that you would rather have one of the broken-AI hirelings in your party instead of a player-controlled sorcerer without Haste? A sorcerer without Haste is "an empty party slot" and better replaced with one of the idiot hirelings? Really?

yes, I'm serious. I'll take an idiot hireling who I'm sure would be smarter than a caster without haste.

That is completely and utterly ridiculous.

And a caster . . . not having haste . . . isn't ridiculous?

I can't see any reasonable party leaders saying, "Well, we could allow a sorcerer, who will get 50-70% of the kill count, but who doesn't have Haste, to join the party, or we could hire a sorcerer with an IQ of 13 who will either stand there and do nothing except caste Haste when I tell him to, or will randomly cast spells with no regard to immunities or vulnerabilities until he is out of SP, which will be about sixty seconds after we start the quest. Hmmmm... Let me think.... Yeah, let's boot the player and go with the hireling."

I play the game to have fun and I'll have a lot more fun with a hireling with haste than a caster without. In a raid situation that's another no-brainer.

[Fejj]

OK one more time: It is NOT elitist to expect someone to carry BASIC things into a group. That word does not mean what you apparently think it means. See my last couple of posts for what it ACTUALLY means.

Here is the actual fact: If YOU cannot be bothered to bring the basic spells and gear expected of you when you jump in a group, YOU are the one being difficult and being a jerk, NOT the group. There are spells and items that I carry that I do not personally use when in groups, but I bring them ANYWAY because I know the GROUP will want or need them. If you dont have the resources (IE too low lvl or cant afford something) that is one thing. We are talking about basic spells that you have plenty of spell slots for. The only way you would NOT have room for them in ANY build would be to deliberately build in such a way so as not to have them -- in which case you are not thinking about the group, therefor you are not WANTED in the group.

Once again, if you are not willing to put the group ahead of yourself, then anyone who does not want to group with you as a result of that is fully entitled to do so. Yes, carrying basic spells such as rage and haste is one of those things. You can do whatever else you want on your toon and STILL bring the red n green.

And for what its worth, the person who insists they are going to do their own thing, regardless of how it impacts the group, and says things like "if you want X then suck a pot" -- yeah THAT guy is much closer to the definition of an elitist (specifically an elitist JERK) than the guy who asks you to bring basic expectations to the group.

I submit that we all mail our spell lists to Varusso so he can approve them. I would not want my choices to be selfish, (on the character I made, and I leveled, and I payed for, and I enjoy)

I will still say you are in the wrong. Not for the ideas you have, but the way you feel that they are the ONLY way to do things. Many people disagree with you, yet you have to keep shoving your point of view in everyone's face.

Since every bard, and every wizard HAS to carry haste and rage, why should every sorcerer do the same? Isn't that selfish to want to cast haste (which could be provided by others) instead of taking a spell possibly not every caster carries?

You see how none of this matters anymore ..... Haste is good we all agree.

Lest just say --- And they lived happily ever after

~THE END~

[Postumus]

Once again, if you are not willing to put the group ahead of yourself, then anyone who does not want to group with you as a result of that is fully entitled to do so. Yes, carrying basic spells such as rage and haste is one of those things. You can do whatever else you want on your toon and STILL bring the red n green.

And for what its worth, the person who insists they are going to do their own thing, regardless of how it impacts the group, and says things like "if you want X then suck a pot" -- yeah THAT guy is much closer to the definition of an elitist (specifically an elitist JERK) than the guy who asks you to bring basic expectations to the group.

I agree with everything you've said here except for the emboldened section. I don't think anyone should dictate how anyone else should play. The whole point of playing an RPG character is that it is customizable.


It's one thing for someone to say "I think players should have X" or "most groups I've been in expect players to have X." Telling players 'you must have X' comes off as rude or elitist, completely misses the spirit of an RPG, and is essentially pointless.


Obviously there are ramifications for the individual player who chooses a particular build or style of play that isn't the most common or expected, but players will learn this as they play. I've found most PUGs are more flexible, patient, and inclusive of varying play styles - including a certain degree of ignorance - than what I read here in the forums.


I've never seen anyone ostracized b/c they didn't have a particular spell, skill, or weapon. It has almost always been because of behavior. Perhaps those who play epic content are less patient or tolerant than the rest of the population at large? Maybe its a server thing? Idk, but I haven't experienced any backlash from my playstyle or build choices since I started playing this game.

[grodon9999]

Am I also and elitist jerk for expecting people to have heavy fort past level 11? It's their toons, their choice right?

[Postumus]

Yeah, I see where you are coming from now. That makes much more sense than simply grouping with someone for a quest that will last a couple of minutes and then deciding if they are a good player or not...

This is pretty much the only criteria I use for adding folks to my friends list (as in 'list of people with whom I enjoy playing'). More important than ability is also their personality.

I regularly run with people whose build choices or gear choices I sometimes question, but who they are and how we interact when we play is much more important than 'x' spell or 'x' feat.

[varusso]

I submit that we all mail our spell lists to Varusso so he can approve them. I would not want my choices to be selfish, (on the character I made, and I leveled, and I payed for, and I enjoy)

I will still say you are in the wrong. Not for the ideas you have, but the way you feel that they are the ONLY way to do things. Many people disagree with you, yet you have to keep shoving your point of view in everyone's face.

Since every bard, and every wizard HAS to carry haste and rage, why should every sorcerer do the same? Isn't that selfish to want to cast haste (which could be provided by others) instead of taking a spell possibly not every caster carries?

You see how none of this matters anymore ..... Haste is good we all agree.

Lest just say --- And they lived happily ever after

~THE END~

The folks who insist that they dont have to bring basic expectations to a group keep shoving that in MY face. Anyone who has actually stepped up and shared their views on what they would use INSTEAD OF rage/haste has been treated with respect and we have had honest and open discussions about what we each feel are the merits and demerits of those choices. Anyone who just responds with negative attitude and "my spells LALALALAA" has received the same treatment in return.

You get what you give. Calling someone an elitist or a jerk because they want something specific from you only gets you the same treatment in return, especially since your target is actually advocating MORE cooperation in a group, and you are advocating ME > GROUP.

I have consistently defended everyone's right to play what they choose, how they choose. I have also said that choosing to do your own thing, while ignoring what the group expects from you, will result in negative consequences for you. Dont pretend this is something *I* am 'mandating'. Its a simple FACT of how the game is. If you are a rogue that cant do traps, you wont get added to a group that is looking for a trapmonkey. If you are a white hat that cant/wont heal, you wont get added to a group looking for a healer. If you are an arcane that wont rage/haste, you will get passed over for an arcane that WILL do that, along with all the other things an arcane can do. Once a player knows you wont bring those things to their group, they will continue to deny you when they are looking for it. When they are in a group and the party leader/guildy says "so and so is applying" they will say, "oh that guy doesnt do X", and you will probably get denied because of YOUR choices.

If you want to do something that is not the accepted standard, kudos to you. But YOU own that decision, dont try to blame others for it. You decided to play something different, and you will probably get plenty of groups if someone ELSE is already in the group, providing what they expected from you. But you wont get added if you are needed to fill that specific role and you cant or wont. And its NOT the group or the party leader who put you in that position.

[Missing_Minds]

That's actually opinion too. A person can't state that it's opinion that haste is better and then state it's fact another spell might better. That's just an opposing opinion. Just sayin'

I don't know, honestly. Would you consider this statement to be factual?

"Each person has their ideas and opinions that may not agree with others."

If you agree that it is fact, why is the above not fact as well? The statement encompasses a few factors that generate a personal rating system, not a universal.

I can take the same caster into the same quest but values will change. Haste vs fireball? If I'm soloing or duoing, fireball. Party of 3-4 it is dependent on how much melee there is. Party of 5-6 normally there is enough melee that haste becomes the better answer.

Maybe just more obvious clarification instead of implied is needed?

[grodon9999]

My opinions are facts as far as I'm concerned

[Missing_Minds]

Fact: Ignoring the FACTS that have been stated over an over, just because you dont like them, does not make them NOT facts.

Agreed, but opinion spouted as fact does not make it fact either.

My opinions are facts as far as I'm concerned

*laughs* Good timing.

[Ironforge_Clan]

My opinions are facts as far as I'm concerned

lol...still doesn't make you right

[grodon9999]

lol...still doesn't make you right

In my own little world, it does.

[Ironforge_Clan]

In my own little world, it does.

rofl...rose colored glasses and farts smelling of lilacs I presume...

[grodon9999]

rofl...rose colored glasses and farts smelling of lilacs I presume...

How'd you know? Did my hireling haste-bot tell you?

[Truga]

Am I also and elitist jerk for expecting people to have heavy fort past level 11? It's their toons, their choice right?

My wiz still carries mod fort at 20. Never bothered to get more. 100% was plenty to survive as a WF, and now I have 175% anyway, thanks to undeath.

Speaking of "MUST HAVE SPELLS", I remember some two or three dudes dissing my WF FvS. "You have 6 wis, how do you even cast, I bet you have like 30 SP." I also didn't have restoration (lol level drain silly fleshies), remove disease, poison, curse, etc. Why would I carry these on a WF, of all things? Of course I then proceeded to destroy von1, and they shut up.

Same goes for sorcerers. Buy 30% striders, dump haste. I want acid blast, lightning bolt, fireball, frost lance, displacement, rage and repair serious. That's 7 spells in 4 slots. Drop 2 dps spells, one depending on your savant, the other depending on what content you're running, and it's 5 slots. Drop repair serious when you get the better repair spells and you're down to 4. Afaik Sorcs only get 4 slots. How do I slot haste.

Add in the fact that between levels 1 and 20, a sorc can solo any non-raid quest while 5 pikers run behind him, why haste?

Also, haste pots are at-will, they work without the sorc next to you. If you like haste that much, shell out the plat, they're cheap at 20. Now I run haste on any and every character capable of casting it, but these threads make me want to dump it, just to read more tears.

[varusso]

OK I will give everyone a few examples from my personal toons, and maybe it will make it easier for everyone to see my points.

(1) I support players playing 'alternative build' toons, but when they are in a group, they still need to provide the basic things a group expects or dont group.

I play my mages as something of a melee blend. I wear the Sora Kel set for the potency boosts and wield a greatsword or greataxe. I carry clickies of Divine Power for tough mobs. I tend toward necros, because they have good self-healing. The aura is a drop it and forget it healing method, much like the Cleric RS aura. At the beginning of the quest, I buff up, pass out NECESSARY buffs to other players, pop form and aura, RAGE/HASTE and go. I am CC specced, so webs, charms, and holds as needed. I am also necro specced (obviously) so finger/CoD for the casters and other nasties. Firewalls and other AOEs are used ONLY when there are large groups of mobs worth casting on. I cast rage and haste as needed at choke points so the entire party STAYS raged and hasted throughout. This while doing all those other things. If someone refuses to stick with the group to GET those rage and haste casts, they can suck a pot. I dont carry repair for the WF in the party; the divines are there for a reason, and they need to learn to deal with WF anyway. Whats more, I am already performing multiple tasks and trying to keep track of HP bars will end up getting them killed. On top of that, I cant afford the AP to boost repair enough to make it worthwhile. In any case, most of the groups are BYOH anyway. If you get incapped, I will throw you a GH and you can pot up from there.

(2) I adapt to what the GROUP needs.

There are some limitations, based on build and the fact that I physically cannot do the things with my hands I used to. Within those limits, I will adjust and swap spells that the party needs for a specific quest. Example:

Caveat: I havent been on a VOD raid since before u9. It used to be that whenever our guild ran VOD, I would log onto my sorc or my capped necros, each of which have repair enhancements and carry recon + one other repair spell (cos I have the spell slots for it). We grab a WF tank, and *I* am the main healer for the tank, even though my playstyle is NOT to be the healer. Why? because this is what is expected in that raid. It makes it easier on the white hats, because I can repair the tank through the curse. I can also keep myself up even when cursed, so the white hats dont have to worry about the tank OR the guy responsible for keeping the tank up. I also carry remove curse wands and clickies that I use on folks whose pots are on timer from the last curse removal. And I rage/haste/smokescreen/wail/dancing ball etc as is normally expected from the arcane.

EDIT: Sorry folks, real life intruded and i had to leave partway through the post.

When I join a PUG on a quest I am not familiar with, the FIRST thing I do is to let the group know, then ask what do *I* need to bring for the party. If I cant provide it, I say so, then let them decide if what I CAN do is good enough. I dont start the quest buffing everyone to the nine's -- its not necessary, and typically its a waste of SP. I dont buff resists as a rule, because at least 3 people have offered ship invites; if you refuse, dont ask me for an identical buff -- if you die or the quest lasts more than an hour, by all means hit me up for it. Instead, I simply tell people to tell me what they need.

If the PL/group says sorry we need someone with X, okie dokie, noted for the next time I want to run this quest. If it is a quest i know well, I ALREADY know what will be expected of me, and I either bring it or clear my LACK of it with the group. I dont wait until we are in-quest and buffed and then tell them tough cookies.

This is actually the typical behavior I see from the majority of players. I seldom see anyone pull the other nonsense, refusing to bring key buffs or not mentioning they are incapable of something until it is too late. the folks that do THAT will get a ban every single time from me -- not because they didnt have it, but because they hid that fact to try and "get by" instead of being honest about it. Again, newbies get a little more leeway.