Another U9 intimidate complaint

[etelan]

I've been following intimidate since they announced the changes coming to Lamannia and now that it is settled into live I have to ask HUH? Intimidate was a tool that accounted for a couple of the most useful raid strategies, was arguably the primary reason for ever caring about a shield, and perhaps the best reason to build a stalwart defender. My understanding is that the system was 'improved' by first making it useless in every place it was useful and then creating new uses for it which are not only much lesser, but also don't work.

Useful tactics pre U9
These are no longer possible because shield blocking will not hold aggro. In addition, the 15 second cooldown is an issue for both of these teleporting bosses.
1) VoD: Shield blocking negates curse making it one of the very few alternatives to a WF tank.
2) DQ: Shield DR blocks a large portion of damage from the quick successive hits. Intimidate pulls damage off the party.

Epic DQ has even fewer successful methods than VoD, so why would they even consider siding here with 'the ball'?!? Of all the cheesy tactics in the history of DQ this is perhaps the lamest and most lagtastic of them all!

Playing by the new rules
Ok, DDO let's give this new system a try. Improved threat generation you say? Well, threat generation is easier to get than a raid boss intimidate score and as a tank I really don't have a use for more, but let's give it a try somewhere where holding aggro is useful and difficult. I'll drop the most epic feat of them all, toughness, and take the new shield mastery feats. Then I will find the best 1h dq beater I can manage (very small selection to compete with epic 2H). Epic Chimera's and Epic Chaosblade both get a lot of immunes. Ok, now I will use my massive threat generation augmented by a maxed out intimidate score to hold aggro with low dps. The shield mastery feats will partially make up for not having shield block DR. The 15 second cooldown is going to be a problem on teleports, but I will play smart and time it when it's most useful.

Can anyone guess the outcome of this all this work? I'll give you a hint: intimidate is worthless.

[Jevern]

I'm not particularly *happy* about the changes to intimidate, but it does kind of make sense. After all, as a monster, why would you go for the angry looking guy with the shield instead of the person who's slicing you into ribbons with whatever other weapon?

I think there are still uses for intimidate, although it makes intimi-shield-tanks a less viable option. My TWF fighter has a unbuffed intimidate of 49, and it would have been 53 if I had taken skill focus and the last intimidate skill enhancement. I tended to use it a lot for pulled aggro off the squisher toons in my parties rather than tanking, although with buffs I had about a 50% chance of pulling a successful intimidate on Xyzzy when tanking Hound, which took her aggro off the puppies. Less chance of the pups dying.

Now, the main difference I notice is that I can't spam intimidate to get the mobs to stay on me. When I first hit the button they do stop for like half a second, but I can generally at least get a couple of hits onto whatever mob is killing the squishy, so that their attention stays on me. If I'm trying to aggro a group of mobs, intim + cleave + turning and whacking mobs seems to get them to stay on me. And this is only because I'm a TWF-er that hits one mob at a time. I imagine a THF would find it easier to hold aggro with intimidate.

In a nutshell, I think it's less viable for certain builds, but certainly not useless. And definitely more realistic.

[count_spicoli]

I'm not particularly *happy* about the changes to intimidate, but it does kind of make sense. After all, as a monster, why would you go for the angry looking guy with the shield instead of the person who is slicing you into ribbons with whatever other weapon.

Ll
You got this all wrong and so did the devs. Intim is a cha based skill not str. Dps is not supposed to decide intim but making the monster/monsters believe you are the one doing the dmg. This new intim with its 15 sec cooldown is a mess. Even on trash it sucks. Was cruising around the devils battlefield last night and my fighter couldn't keep the mobs off my brothers thief. My intim is 50 unbuffed but might as well been 5. They intially will come to me but lose a}gro after like 1 sec. Poor little thief was getting killed all over the place. We used to cruise around out there and I would use intim and he would assiainate all over the place but now has to take them head on. Total bs. I thought intim was cool as hell the way it was. I guess I can try to figure out a new way to make it viable. Maybe shield and bastard swords. Hell I don't know but I am not happy.

[pSINNa]

As previously suspected, the very few places that a hard to gear, hard to level sword and board tank were really useful and fun to play (my intimi kinda felt like a prizefighter when he was slow motion running into the fray with Horoth or Sulo, and occasionly that six handed minx, with the clerics all breathing a sigh of relief at a well controlled raid run, and the melee's all grinning at the backstab damage about to come) have been taken away.

It's the big dps pajama brigade that have finally toppled the old tanks. They all stand around in the phoenix now reminiscing about those endless abbot runs for the circle of hatred, the interminable pug hounds going for the shield, the exscruciating titan repeats for that blasted dodge bonus, and the fun prying the cinders ring from the outstretched claw of that sorc pugger that wanted a bit of extra con.

My intimi got TR'd into a bard, what more can i say. *sigh*

Dps in pajama's, i think there's a song in that, and it's a sad one.


Coit out~

[grodon9999]

As previously suspected, the very few places that a hard to gear, hard to level sword and board tank were really useful and fun to play (my intimi kinda felt like a prizefighter when he was slow motion running into the fray with Horoth or Sulo, and occasionly that six handed minx, with the clerics all breathing a sigh of relief at a well controlled raid run, and the melee's all grinning at the backstab damage about to come) have been taken away.

It's the big dps pajama brigade that have finally toppled the old tanks. They all stand around in the phoenix now reminiscing about those endless abbot runs for the circle of hatred, the interminable pug hounds going for the shield, the exscruciating titan repeats for that blasted dodge bonus, and the fun prying the cinders ring from the outstretched claw of that sorc pugger that wanted a bit of extra con.

My intimi got TR'd into a bard, what more can i say. *sigh*

Dps in pajama's, i think there's a song in that, and it's a sad one.


Coit out~

Coit . . . my guildie's got a S&B guy VERY similar to your old one and he's still viable. Holds aggro just fine while S&B fighting with intim.

[pSINNa]

Coit . . . my guildie's got a S&B guy VERY similar to your old one and he's still viable. Holds aggro just fine while S&B fighting with intim.

Fair enough, i'm on a bard and fvs binge at the moment, and have another 7 lives to pound out on my current project, then i'll come back to tanking.

By then the dust should have settled and i might TR old Coitimeh back into a tank again, all new and improved with the new rules/feats/gear setup taken to max with the build. I do kind of miss tanking, and if it can still be a viable playstyle, i wouldn't mind doing some more of it again some time in the future.

But for now......i've got solo etite dq and vod on my mind with my new fvs xD.

Have a good one all, and here's to hoping that sword and board isn't really dead for when the mood takes us to run up to horoth and 'give him the finger'.

Coit out~

[grodon9999]

I sense much greatness in this thread . . . especially if Junts sees it

Intim is NOT worthless, it's just different. The Extra threat DOES work as long as you still have the DPS in your build and aren't using a CHR-Skills weapon. We use S&B threat-tanks all the time now and they work great. They hold aggro and can be heal-scrolled through Hard/Elite Horoth.

A great thing about the new intim is if a threat-tank dies they can actually get aggro back! This is friggin AWESOME, there was no way to do this before.

You're right about the curses thing, just drink a pot if your get cursed. He only curses you if he confirms a critical hit so if you're AC's high it's not gonna happen that often.

About eDQ, yes that was really nice when it worked but really isn't needed. That raid had become a joke with the ball-method.

[etelan]

Intim is NOT worthless, it's just different. The Extra threat DOES work as long as you still have the DPS in your build and aren't using a CHR-Skills weapon. We use S&B threat-tanks all the time now and they work great. They hold aggro and can be heal-scrolled through Hard/Elite Horoth.

Oh, I hold aggro great for tanking Horoth S&B, but I don't use intimidate to do it.

[chodelord]

intimidate isn't useless, blocking is useless because block = lose aggro

I see no point post patch of making a shield using toon, pre patch there as almost no point but without sticky aggro a shield is useful for devotion and thats it

the extra threat generated by wearing a shield + intim doesn't make up for the damage loss from going snb and the new shield bash feat is a joke

to make a shield not worthless they need to seriously buff the new shield mastery feat

instead of this hokum % damage reduction (which is **** except for big hits) the text should simply be "always considered to be blocking"

that is something that would make strapping on a shield worthwhile

[MrWizard]

intimidate isn't useless, blocking is useless because block = lose aggro

I see no point post patch of making a shield using toon, pre patch there as almost no point but without sticky aggro a shield is useful for devotion and thats it

the extra threat generated by wearing a shield + intim doesn't make up for the damage loss from going snb and the new shield bash feat is a joke

to make a shield not worthless they need to seriously buff the new shield mastery feat

instead of this hokum % damage reduction (which is **** except for big hits) the text should simply be "always considered to be blocking"

that is something that would make strapping on a shield worthwhile

I gotta disagree. I have only run a few dungeons with my stalwart, TWF, that also carries a shield.

TWF I could not hold the aggro as well...but with a shield I was able to completely hold the aggro of the bosses.
And the bosses do hit hard, horoth around 100. I get 25% + 6 damage reduction and that is pretty nice. I used to get 45-49 DR when shield blocking, so it is close.

I do miss having a high healing amp weapon in one hand for easy healing on boss fights (gotta come up with something for that I guess).

Intim is a little buggy when on auto attack but when sword and board I find I only have to hit intim once or twice at most...should the big guy ever turn.


As for shield block, the high DR is still there (around 39)...plus you get 25% reduction from damage on top of it...great for holding large amount of mobs and self healing while doing it.

And as said before, the only time to worry about it is the 4 or so boss fights where you are the lead tank...and if not the tank, no biggie.

the animation for intimidate seems to make it buggy when you are moving and fighting at the same time...I still suggest a 'shield block' when hitting it so you do not 'bug' it.

[BruceTheHoon]

intimidate isn't useless, blocking is useless because block = lose aggro

I see no point post patch of making a shield using toon, pre patch there as almost no point but without sticky aggro a shield is useful for devotion and thats it

the extra threat generated by wearing a shield + intim doesn't make up for the damage loss from going snb and the new shield bash feat is a joke

to make a shield not worthless they need to seriously buff the new shield mastery feat

instead of this hokum % damage reduction (which is **** except for big hits) the text should simply be "always considered to be blocking"

that is something that would make strapping on a shield worthwhile

This.

There is hardly a reason for going S&B, if shield blocking is useless. You are just trading in damage and getting nothing valueable in return. Before, you got a huge AC and DR boost while blocking, now you get some %DR, that only really comes close to the blocking one, if the enemies hit you for 100+ per hit.
Yes, you can still block and get the same bonuses, but AC and DR are only important when the enemies are actually attacking you, which they won't, because you are blocking.

I like your idea about the shield mastery. 5% DR increase for a feat?
I believe, that investing 2 feats into shields should at least get you something useful.

[etelan]

intimidate isn't useless, blocking is useless because block = lose aggro

I'll give you that. I say intimidate is useless as a hyperbole while blocking got hit even harder.

[sweez]

Shield blocking in VoD? I thought Suulu only cursed on confirmed crits, which means that on a proper AC tank you never get cursed anyway, unless Suulu picked up improved crit and a bloodstone

[InSoNiAc]

I'm not going to enter into fray and comment on the viability of a well built and geared intimi-tank being able to hold elite or epic boss agro - there was enough discussion on the Lama forums with the general consensus being that intimi-tanking bosses was still feasible, just much more gear dependent than previously. Instead I will share my observations from recent VoD runs post-update.

Pre-update 9 the tactics in this raid were simple. Tank intims and shield blocks initial orthon wave. Tank intims boss. Off-tank handles second orthon wave. Healers work through half of their mana bar if lucky. Everyone loots their enlightened vestments.

After the update, VoD runs are best described as chaos from beginning to end. Initial wave of orthon's lands - a tank and off-tank can hold agro of one orthon each at best. Now you have at least 2 orthons running rampant until they are DPSed down. Instead of well mitigated damage being done to one character you now have mulitple characters all over the map taking damage - putting a much greater strain on the healers. After the initial orthon wave the boss beatdown proceeds much as it always has as many groups simply used to employ a hate tank anyway. When you get to the second wave of orthons its even more chaotic as now there are likely to be bearded devils in the fray as well.

ToD and DQ runs seem relatively unaffected. Possibly due to the fact that these raids often employ the hate-tanking and "ball" methods. While I disagree that update 9 heralds the dOoM!1 of intimitanking, I challenge anyone to provide a compelling argument as to how an intimitank in VoD (which used to be where they shone) has not been made substantially less effective by the changes.

[sirgog]

Intim useless?

Horoth tank dies while the party is on Suulo. Someone with Intim and a big shield runs up to Horoth, Intimidates successfully and turtles, and now Horoth doesn't attack anyone else except the turtle until Suulo is dead (or until the original tank is raised, rebuffed and chooses to come and collect Horoth).

Or another situation - you have an Intim that you know can't affect Horoth (even on a 20). Orthons are swarming your Horoth tank. Run in, Intim, and those Orthons are now on you for good (not just six seconds), until someone else hits them. Problem solved.


The skill is still powerful in the hands of a skilled player, but no longer works as well as it used to for geared unskilled players.

[smatt]

Intim useless?

Horoth tank dies while the party is on Suulo. Someone with Intim and a big shield runs up to Horoth, Intimidates successfully and turtles, and now Horoth doesn't attack anyone else except the turtle until Suulo is dead (or until the original tank is raised, rebuffed and chooses to come and collect Horoth).

Or another situation - you have an Intim that you know can't affect Horoth (even on a 20). Orthons are swarming your Horoth tank. Run in, Intim, and those Orthons are now on you for good (not just six seconds), until someone else hits them. Problem solved.


The skill is still powerful in the hands of a skilled player, but no longer works as well as it used to for geared unskilled players.

As with many other parts of DDO, as time has gone on, and especially with Update 9, "Thinking Players", that is players and groups that use actual tactics are rewarded. The game has become more complicated in that sue of some skills and spells take a bit more thought, skill, and gear. The flailing attempts by the Devs to make shields actually useful have been a complete failure. The only use for shields in the last 2 years has been Sheild Block intimidate type situations. Which obviously are now useless...... It's nto all tha thard to repec that type of S&B timi into a 2W type hate generation tank that with proper game play can easily hold agro in MOST cases, that is until you get another really dumb thoughtless, or I'm so awesome player who doesn't know how to control their own toon, and it's hate generation/DPS in such situations.

[sirgog]

As with many other parts of DDO, as time has gone on, and especially with Update 9, "Thinking Players", that is players and groups that use actual tactics are rewarded. The game has become more complicated in that sue of some skills and spells take a bit more thought, skill, and gear. The flailing attempts by the Devs to make shields actually useful have been a complete failure. The only use for shields in the last 2 years has been Sheild Block intimidate type situations. Which obviously are now useless...... It's nto all tha thard to repec that type of S&B timi into a 2W type hate generation tank that with proper game play can easily hold agro in MOST cases, that is until you get another really dumb thoughtless, or I'm so awesome player who doesn't know how to control their own toon, and it's hate generation/DPS in such situations.

If a shield is the difference between 80 and 89 AC, well that is the difference between Elite Horoth's melee swings doing ~60 damage per second, and doing ~20 (mostly grazing hits). That's the difference between a 2 mana pot run and having 1500sp left over when Suulo dies.

Likewise for most epic rednameds (although only if you debuff them with all the usual -To-Hit effects that work on rednameds - Bestow Curse, Exhaustion, Strength Sapping and the like).

Heh, check out my new mediocre intimidate build. Specifically built to not be very good at it.

Remove the Circle of Hatred (or whatever you use for +15 Intim) and the eClaw gloves and your Cha item. -23 to Intim. Goes from 'works on a 1 on elite Horoth' to 'fails on a 20 on Horoth'.

Gear swaps take you 3 seconds, but you can heal a tank through elite Horoth and 4-6 Orthons for that time just fine if you really have to.

[etelan]

Remove the Circle of Hatred (or whatever you use for +15 Intim) and the eClaw gloves and your Cha item. -23 to Intim. Goes from 'works on a 1 on elite Horoth' to 'fails on a 20 on Horoth'.

Gear swaps take you 3 seconds, but you can heal a tank through elite Horoth and 4-6 Orthons for that time just fine if you really have to.

Unfortunately, when specced for no fail epic DQ -23 is not enough :/ Having to remove your intimidate gear is hardly a compelling reason to call it a worthwhile skill.

[sirgog]

Unfortunately, when specced for no fail epic DQ -23 is not enough :/ Having to remove your intimidate gear is hardly a compelling reason to call it a worthwhile skill.

Yeah in that case it doesn't work. I've not seen an Intim strategy used on eLailat since the stealth nerfs to her damage output ages ago, and so I've not seen people shoot for Intim scores that are nofail on eDQ2 or elite HoX.

The skill could be improved to have a 'taunt just this mob' mode, or a 'taunt everything BUT this mob' mode to prevent the silly gearchanges, but it is useful as-is.

Indeed.... But how many groups will actualyl be patient AND smart enough to let a S&B keep Intimi/agro on an Elite ToD.... Sure there will be a few...

Those groups that don't have a good strategy for controlling Horoth's aggro don't attempt Elite+Suulo often. They are even less likely to succeed.

S&B hate, enhanced by the new Intim, is easily enough to lock Horoth in elite ToD; even against ultra-geared melees.

[smatt]

If a shield is the difference between 80 and 89 AC, well that is the difference between Elite Horoth's melee swings doing ~60 damage per second, and doing ~20 (mostly grazing hits). That's the difference between a 2 mana pot run and having 1500sp left over when Suulo dies.

Indeed.... But how many groups will actualyl be patient AND smart enough to let a S&B keep Intimi/agro on an Elite ToD.... Sure there will be a few...

Likewise for most epic rednameds (although only if you debuff them with all the usual -To-Hit effects that work on rednameds - Bestow Curse, Exhaustion, Strength Sapping and the like).

I admittedly haven't played enough post update 9 to do any epics to be honest...