Icy Prison and #winning?

[Cetus]

Yea i do. Nick says horoth was held for only a few seconds. so lets see your 3 second video of horoth.

Lailat always had a poor reflex save thats true. But imo they trivialzed the raid when they broke her ai to not switch targets as often. This is just yet another nail in the coffin far as im concerned. Trivial raid was always trivial. I mean really, a 60 seconds fight (and nothing else at all besides the trivial entrance hallway) for an entire raid where you stand still and hold the rightclick while a healer or 2 spam some mass cures? its a joke, frozen or not.

I know as well as anywone turbine will nerf this (thats like there reason-de-etre lately, nerf always and often, without thinking about it)
I'm not thinking i can stop them in any way. I just care more about the game then to ask for such a terrible nerf that would make an otherwise fun ability, worthless. Savant is already quite a weak pre, so asking for a straight nerf is just wrong.

Here is my suggested fix:
-Rebalance raid boses reflex saves to be more in line to have a chance to save against lvl20s usual DCs (40, so a reflex save of 30ish would be appropriate, currently many are in the 15-25 range, thus why they stay encased so long)
- Red named can stay as is for saves, clumsy ones with poor reflex saves deserve an icy death to a powerful lvl18+ sorc with very high con.
-Reduce the cooldown to 30 seconds so its actaully useful outside of boss fights.
-Instead of blanket immunities for bosses, give them some resistance to it: +5 saves vs it, and reduced duration of 10 seconds max for purple named, 15 seconds max for red named.

That and fix the fire savant special too, which is currently garbage. It's basically a weaker version of finger of death, with slower cast, horrible cooldown and high sp cost, that does no damage on a save, and works on less enemies. When it should be a massively powerful nuke, given how weak fire savant is overall. Something fun like abbots inferno (slightly toned down tho), or just a massive ultra deadly fireball would be much better.

Earth one (earthgrab) is already pretty good. Could do with a bit more DoT dmg tho.

air (wind dance) is fine, but really should have the standard 3 second cooldown like fvs have.

Hey, now I'm agreeing with you. If they make it hard as sh!t to land, and only truly epic casters with things invested into it can land it. Sure, like I said, I'll gladly take it because I DO think its fun and enjoyable. But, other helpless effects should be welcome to land as well. Tendon slice should be available, etc..

[Cetus]

I don't think straight nerfs that aren't thought out are ever justified, and I also don't think that the excuse of "not WAI" ever flies for me, or anyone who really cares about the balance of the game. Thats just a lazy excuse that basically says "were bad programmers"

Nerfs are sometimes justified, but not when done in a vast over reaching way like the nerfs done when tending slice was changed. That was nerfed NOT because tendon slice was overpowered... It was nerfed because they were doing a massive nerf to all movement speed effects and it got lumped in. At the time I posted a suggestion on how to balance all the effects for bosses without having to go with annoying blanket immunities, it was ignored.

So inconsistant too. U9 was all about removing blanket immuntiies, but upping saves to balance thing. Definetely a step in the right direciton. And people are asking for more immunities suddenly ? Backwards thinking.

So I realy dont care what you think is wai, or even what turbine thinks is wai.

What I care a bout is whether it will be a useful/balanced ability after your proposed nerf of "BLANKET IMMUNITIES PLX" happens.
We really should be discusing, how to to make it a fair/fun ability, not how many more blanket immunties bosses need.

If anything, the old classic ddo years ago was much more fun. Way less immunites, way more variety of tactics working. So many nerfs that just never needed to happen. Another annoying one I remebmer: Trip immunity.. I know fora fact most bosses have huge balance scores, so trip would only last 2 seconds at most, but instead of just balancing there stats and balance scores to make them very dificult to trip for long periods, they go with blanket immunites. The lazy way out.

Don't take the lazy way out turbine.

You also need to understand that sometimes certain immunities are a necessary evil. If certain extremely powerful things like ice prison will be given an INTENDED save, then that save will have to cater to the generic DDO player. In other words, we will find a way to maximize our efficiency with it to the point where its just going to be a statue beat down every boss fight.

I'm loving it temporarily, but I don't want this to stay. I welcome other tactics, but nothing like this- where the boss doesn't even fight back and gets his a$$ beat 50% more badly. I realize you don't care about my opinion, but thats what it is. (and while I'm talking to you, update my dps challenge entry )

[Zachski]

There's a reason the "Contractual Boss Immunity" trope exists.

[Xaearth]

Virtuoso Enthrall says "Oh hai dere".

In case my implication was missed:

A similar ability by a far less popular PrE was able to affect raid bosses for a short time...
The forums were in a far bigger uproar over it than this...
And Enthrall doesn't even have an offensive component.

If sorcs think they should have CC against purple names, they're entitled to that opinion.
The line starts back behind Virtuoso bards and CC focused wizards.

[Kepli_Moonshadow]

...

That. Wasn't. Very. Brilliant.

(Combat): You begin to cast Summon The-Nerf-Bat.
(Combat): You summon The-Nerf-Bat.

>.< ^This^

You just HESH UP!!!

[Valindria]

In case my implication was missed:

A similar ability by a far less popular PrE was able to affect raid bosses for a short time...
The forums were in a far bigger uproar over it than this...
And Enthrall doesn't even have an offensive component.

If sorcs think they should have CC against purple names, they're entitled to that opinion.
The line starts back behind Virtuoso bards and CC focused wizards.

I am behind making Bards songs (enthrall/fascinate or something new) more useful vs bosses.

[Seikojin]

Yea i do. Nick says horoth was held for only a few seconds. so lets see your 3 second video of horoth.

Lailat always had a poor reflex save thats true. But imo they trivialzed the raid when they broke her ai to not switch targets as often. This is just yet another nail in the coffin far as im concerned. Trivial raid was always trivial. I mean really, a 60 seconds fight (and nothing else at all besides the trivial entrance hallway) for an entire raid where you stand still and hold the rightclick while a healer or 2 spam some mass cures? its a joke, frozen or not.

I know as well as anywone turbine will nerf this (thats like there reason-de-etre lately, nerf always and often, without thinking about it)
I'm not thinking i can stop them in any way. I just care more about the game then to ask for such a terrible nerf that would make an otherwise fun ability, worthless. Savant is already quite a weak pre, so asking for a straight nerf is just wrong.

Here is my suggested fix:
-Rebalance raid boses reflex saves to be more in line to have a chance to save against lvl20s usual DCs (40, so a reflex save of 30ish would be appropriate, currently many are in the 15-25 range, thus why they stay encased so long)
- Red named can stay as is for saves, clumsy ones with poor reflex saves deserve an icy death to a powerful lvl18+ sorc with very high con.
- Reduce the cooldown to 30 seconds so its actaully useful outside of boss fights.
- Reduce the damage to 200 base, but allow it function as a real spell, with full metas/enhancements/items applying.
-Instead of blanket immunities for bosses, give them some resistance to it: +5 saves vs it, and reduced duration of 10 seconds max for purple named, 15 seconds max for red named.

That and fix the fire savant special too, which is currently garbage. It's basically a weaker version of finger of death, with slower cast, horrible cooldown and high sp cost, that does no damage on a save, and works on less enemies. When it should be a massively powerful nuke, given how weak fire savant is overall. Something fun like abbots inferno (slightly toned down tho), or just a massive ultra deadly fireball would be much better.

Earth one (earthgrab) is already pretty good. Could do with a bit more DoT dmg tho.

air (wind dance) is fine, but really should have the standard 3 second cooldown like fvs have.

I completely agree. I think the suggestions for the fix on it works best. I agree raid bosses should be tougher and you should be able to get past their defenses, but only for a short time.

[LordPiglet]

As 'rude' as your writing is, I actually agree with many of the points. I remember that fight and I also remember how long it took despite her being frozen. I think the encasement is WAI. I totally forgot about the effect for EG, so I won't waste my time trying it when my sorc hits t3 of earth savant.

I did a shroud run last night as well and no one played a water savant. It was interesting to see them spamming their bolt slas. It looked far more organized and tactical. More of what I would call a raid.

Someone even threw up an arcon and pew pewd the earth ele to call harry in before people were mana full and prepared. No deaths or even threat of death.

I did like seeing purple numbers though.

You don't have to be mana full if you're running with AoV's in shroud. My WF is running it and in melee. I'm not sure if the other FvS in my last shroud was or not, but I used around 1/4 of my sp in part 4, started part 5 with 3/4 sp and had plenty left over. I run 2500 sp.