Clr/FvS: Does divine punishment do too much damage?

[Farayon]

Actually, it might be pretty balanced in pve. I've only tested it in the arena yet, where it seems on the powerful side.

So you want a spell that is well balanced in PvE to be nerfed into uselessness because you feel it is OP in PvP? It's people like you who make me wish that Devs should never ever listen to anything we players say ever again.

[sweez]

I've done ~1100 purple crits, not sure if I was using eardweller or not (with smiting 3 and 1 tier in both crit lines, greater arcane lore). It, however, is NOT overpowered.

It's basically the only real choice spellcasting FvS' have for single-target dps (well, other than the archon and the free searing light if you take that deity), and it's very good at what it does - it speeds up boss fights, and is great to use on stuff like Shroud portals. Maintaining it at its full DPS potential requires a bucketload of SP, and to get really good numbers getting a condemnation guard is basically required. Also, there are no brilliance 5 clickies in the game (and no major light lore items AFAIK).

What the spell does, is making me feel like I'm actually contributing in boss fights on my evoker FvS other than spamming mass heal/cures. It's a good feeling. Most fun I've had with it was definitely taking and maintaining the mudman boss in epic Fathom - I have a feeling divines are going to steal a lot of aggro on high AC high fort mobs. Then again, arcanes, even non-savant ones, can steal aggro on basically anything (that isn't element immune/highly resistant) with their DoTs.

[Forzah]

So you want a spell that is well balanced in PvE to be nerfed into uselessness because you feel it is OP in PvP? It's people like you who make me wish that Devs should never ever listen to anything we players say ever again.

I don't want it nerfed per se, it's a nice spell. Dmg output just seems on the high side, compared to searing light for instance.

[TheKaige]

I absolutely LOVE Divine Punishment; the idea of a NO-SAVE single target DoT to give Clerics something to do against boss/raid monsters when they aren't squeezed for healing juice is great.

That said, I am of the mind that Divine Punishment needs a nerf; here's why:

Niac’s Biting Cold: Cost of 20 sp. Spell does 1d6+1 per level in cold damage, and has a duration of 16 seconds. Cooldown is 10 seconds. This damage over time spell can stack up to 3 times on a target, and can be Quickened, Enlarged, Empowered, or Maximized.

Eladar's Electric Surge: Same thing, except it does electric damage.

Divine Punishment: Same thing, except it costs 25 SP, and does light damage.

For 5 extra SP, Divines have a spell that does the same damage as it's arcane equivalent, but there are almost no monsters resistant to light, and to my knowledge, no monsters immune to light damage; Divine Punishment is largely a SUPERIOR spell to it's arcane equivalent.

I don't think that there should be a large nerf to the spell; hell, maybe the better argument is that Biting Cold and Electric Surge need buffed; but when it comes to Damage spells, Arcanes are, by nature, supposed to be better.

Reducing Divine Punishment from 1d6+1/level to just 1/level would be suffice imo.

[sweez]

I don't want it nerfed per se, it's a nice spell. Dmg output just seems on the high side, compared to searing light for instance.

Searing light is a crappy sustained DPS spell unless you're using it on level 10 vampires, DP being so much better doesn't say that DP is overpowered, it just accentuates the under-poweredness of searing light.

As for PvP balance, bothering with that in the slightest bit in a game where PvP is obviously a dumpstat, is a bit weird to say the least.

[taurean430]

I don't want it nerfed per se, it's a nice spell. Dmg output just seems on the high side, compared to searing light for instance.

Acranes should not be the only classes in game that do damage via spells. Divine Punishment is a welcome addition. The implementation of it allows divine casters to contribute to boss fights while fufilling primary and secondary healing duties. This is one of the changes to the game that I like.

[sweez]

For 5 extra SP, Divines have a spell that does the same damage as it's arcane equivalent, but there are almost no monsters resistant to light, and to my knowledge, no monsters immune to light damage; Divine Punishment is largely a SUPERIOR spell to it's arcane equivalent.

You are forgetting two very important things - a) you can amp up elemental DoT damage with 75% clickies and b) major lores exist for elemental spells, but not for light spells.

[TheKaige]

You are forgetting two very important things - a) you can amp up elemental DoT damage with 75% clickies and b) major lores exist for elemental spells, but not for light spells.

And the availability of gear should determine the actual value of a spell?

Besides, 1. As soon as crafting reaches level 75, there will be 75% clickies for light and 2. It's pretty easy to get an Arcane Lore item, and Greater Arcane Lore items do very much exist.

[Angelus_dead]

You are forgetting two very important things - a) you can amp up elemental DoT damage with 75% clickies and b) major lores exist for elemental spells, but not for light spells.

Other factors in favor of the arcane spells:
1. Wizards can cast both Niac's Biting Cold and Eledar's Electric Surge, giving them around 2x the DPS from STDOTs. (They get Melf too). (A Sorc could possibly have both, but with their fewer slots it would be harder)
2. Sorcs can have Water Savant or Air Savant, which raises caster level +6, gives +15% Awaken Weakness, and adds +15 if the enemy has resistance (such as cold on devils)


Factor for the divine spell:
1. FVS can put Shield of Condemnation on a raid boss, magnifying light damage from 20-100%, depending on proc rate and hit speed. (As far as I can tell, you'd need multiple FVS in order to reach the peak amplification)

[Gratch]

It's a very nice DoT, but just one shining example in an otherwise poor arsenal that Divines have.

Maybe you haven't seen it yet, but we now have electric savant sorcs stealing aggro from our melees w/o problem even though the melees have been beating bosses down for a while. AoE 3k+ crits along with their dots are common for sorcs now. Divines aren't even in the same zipcode of U9 arcane (esp Sorc) damage.

Divine Punishment is nice, but it's not even Melf's quality comparing my Earth Savant SLA to my FvS. Though it will be nice for some undead.

[taurean430]

It's a very nice DoT, but just one shining example in an otherwise poor arsenal that Divines have.

Maybe you haven't seen it yet, but we now have electric savant sorcs stealing aggro from our melees w/o problem even though the melees have been beating bosses down for a while. AoE 3k+ crits along with their dots are common for sorcs now. Divines aren't even in the same zipcode of U9 arcane (esp Sorc) damage.

Divine Punishment is nice, but it's not even Melf's quality comparing my Earth Savant SLA to my FvS. Though it will be nice for some undead.

Yes.

And this statement summarizes my confusion on why this thread even exists.

Oh wait... it's another PVP love thread gone astray. Outside of PVP there isn't even a comparison to be made imo.

[HarveyMilk]

When Divine Avenger and T3 of AoV are added, they could change Divine Punishment to have a will save for half dmg.

Divine Avenger will boost all the wis dumpers' melee damage, so they won't cry too hard.



BTW, here's one idea for T3 AoV, to be released after clerics get domains and we see a fire dot divine spell: a new metamagic, called Miracle.

When Miracle is toggled on, all your offensive spells are considered light for the purpose of bypassing resistances, but gain a will save for 0 dmg. So if you have max wis you're fine. And against some huge will save boss, you have your friendly arcane debuff them. Or you just turn off the meta.

[darksol23]

I love the PrE and I love Divine Punishment...

I got to test it out last night for the first time in a raid. It was great in ToD... Toss my crown to a high-dps low-ac melee and watch the curses roll in. After a few curse procs the purple numbers were over 800 and a saw a few around 1100 on the shadowmaster. The melee in our guild group noticed a difference with all the purple numbers too, I think our KOTC had to change his pants. It's nice to be able to contribute more to raids without being a full melee spec'd FvS. (Yes I know the melee FvS can still melee + Divine Punishment and still contribute yet more DPS, hopefully AoV III will be a real "caster" PrE) I had no problems healing while keeping Divine Punishment going full on.

Outside of raids though I haven't used it much except for end-of-quest bosses and mini-bosses that have enough HP to make it worth keeping up the ticks.

[protokon]

spells works great.

gives me something to do on top of healing a raid tank / party. It's fun stacking it 3 times and watching it crit for 900+.

[HallowedOne]

I love playing my FVS now. I maxx'ed Light dmg/crit/multiplier, and it's a blast when used correctly - you can dish out 1600 dmg on crits on a fully debuffed mob from AoV abilities. If you take Silver Flame path, you have at-will searing light which furthers extend that ability.

The caster FVS now has an even less passive role on epics, and I like it. Granted, I wish the other alignements spells were better - Chaos Hammer, Holy Smite have nice 2ndary abilities but they are very weak nuke spells.

[Matuse]

For 5 extra SP, Divines have a spell that does the same damage as it's arcane equivalent, but there are almost no monsters resistant to light, and to my knowledge, no monsters immune to light damage; Divine Punishment is largely a SUPERIOR spell to it's arcane equivalent.

For 19 AP, a Wiz/Sorc can take Element Manipulation VII, Deadly Element IV, and Element Crit Chance VI, which gives +50% damage, a base 9% critical rate, and a crit multiplier of 225%.

That's not including things like the Sorc capstone, savant boosts, major lore, etc.

For 22 AP, a Cleric/FvS can take Smiting IV, Prayer Of Smiting III, and Incredible Smiting III, which gives +40% damage, a base 9% critical rate, and a crit multiplier of 225%.

So, more AP for less boost.

Sure, light works on nearly everything, but hell, so does electricity. Only demons and flesh golems are immune to it. Acid works similarly, with a few ooze types, the elementals in Acid Wit, and not a lot else. Fire and Cold suffer immunity issues, but they also have a good selection of things that automatically take purple damage. Light only has vampires and maybe Whisperdoom.

I'm definitely going to have to pay a visit to Church & Cult, and slap the living hell out of that dude, now that I think about it. Payback for YEARS of his antics.

The spell is fine. It doesn't need any changes at all, except maybe a graphical effect when you cast it. Currently there's not much going on except waving your arms around.

Divines FINALLY get a reasonably effective single target damage spell, and you want it slapped down? Why? Arcanes run circles around Divines for damage. Arcanes run circles around Divines for insta-death. Is a single target spell that we can actually enjoy using instead of having to suffer through really so much?

[Angelus_dead]

Divines FINALLY get a reasonably effective single target damage spell, and you want it slapped down? Why? Arcanes run circles around Divines for damage.

The reason I want it nerfed is not because of Arcane vs Divine balance, but caster FVS vs healer/melee FVS. The Divine Punishment DPS is identical regardless of your wisdom, spell focus feats, and spell focus items.

A caster-spec Cleric/FVS should have better spellcasting DPS against bosses than someone with 8 wis, but they pretty much don't.

[Rdonaccount]

Sure, light works on nearly everything, but hell, so does electricity. Only demons and flesh golems are immune to it.

And liches. So 2 raid bosses already are immune to elec.

[mute_mayhem]

Divine Punishment is such an amazing spell for a divine caster...

Some numbers I've seen:
1,400 (stacked 3 times + 2 AoV Condemnation debuffs) on end boss in sinister storage (evoker FvS build)
1,100 (stacked 3 times + 5 AoV Condemnation debuffs) on Harry in part 4 (warforged soul survivor build)
1,500+ (stacked 3 times + 3-4 AoV Condemnation debuffs) on Demon queen, whole fight lasted about 1 minute (evoker build)

Now, I burned a lot of spell points to keep this kind of damage going, but especially in Shroud, before the update I would usually have 1000+ spell points left at the end of part 4. This gives me something else to spend those spell points on, and greatly increases the total party dps.

In regards to the second number above, the party was pretty much mediocre dps, nothing great, but nothing bad either, and we finished part 4 about 5-10 seconds before the blades closed in.

This spell is exactly what divines needed to be true offensive casters in raids and epics.

[pSINNa]

I"ve rolled out a high dc divine for the first time in 6 months.

The new Prestige Enhancement line is responsible.

I've actually changed up my entire spell list on that character, changing out the same old tired list i've kept on my fvs characters for over a year now.

I'm having fun as an offensive divine caster again for the first time since i rolled out my original high dc divine.

DP does ok damage, and when used in conjuction with a few other abilities (judicial placement of your crown, getting a nice crown proc on a boss, maxing out your smite enhancements, with some points into crit chance and multiplier, having a decent lore item), and you approach, not exceed, the damage done by every johhny spellchucking arcane in the game.

Have a heart, leave things the way they are for the flames sake. It's no OP, and i defy anyone to make a serious reasoned argument to the affect that it is.

It's random unsupported posts like this that can sometimes prompt development backlash that destroys a lot of fun in the game for a lot of people.

Don't.

Coit out~