Clr/FvS: Does divine punishment do too much damage?

[danotmano1998]

Just for the record... I like it. A whole lot.

[HarveyMilk]

Of course you do =D who wouldn't?

[Traver]

I don't mind that melee fvs have better dps on bosses. They should!

After all, my evoker beats my melee in cc spells, trash dps, insta kills and healing.

Personally I think my evoker can still out dps the melee, just costs sp, which is really only what the melee is doing anyway. 1 cast of DP is almost a group heal.

[Gratch]

I've never seen so many divines wanting to get themselves nerfed. Be glad you have a new DoT that uses the smiting line. Ask for more like it. Maybe some type of LightStorm L6-9 AoE saveForHalf spell for kaboom damage #'s. You'll also get 30% more from the PRE for Firestorm - the largest AoE in game. Though most don't take the time to learn how it targets and call it broken... but it isn't (it targets your reticle at cast... not the mob you have selected... not your reticle at occurrence... learn it... use it... and don't target mobs behind you).

Also ask for the current crowd control dc spells divines do have to be made more efficient instead of the current 6s functionality in epic of greater command and the like. If your divine does have stylin DC... why aren't you imploding/destructing every nonboss monster (even in epic) anyways? The wfg'ed with the ESoS isn't doing that. You did get that change this update.

Also realize that most melee-focused FvS who mostly didn't have the smiting line at all... are losing AP's from a bunch of other places. Though FvS arent' really all that AP limited as a class.

[HarveyMilk]

I don't mind that melee fvs have better dps on bosses. They should!

Of course they should. They always have, and they always will. The issue is by how much?

My evoker won't all of a sudden get a weapon that makes him melee as well as a melee fvs, even with a paltry strength score. But with DP, melee souls get boss spell dmg on par with caster fvs, in ADDITION to their melee.

It's too much, even according to some who are greatly benefiting from this (look at earlier posts in the thread).

Yes, the arcane dots have no saves, and don't scale with a caster stat. But divines have always been much more melee-friendly than arcanes, by nature. A dot this good that completely ignores caster stat is an oversight imo.

[Habreno]

/Signed on solution 2

And I have tested on portals in Shroud. When you have multiple stacks going, I managed to roll a 20 (+20) for the dispel and all three stacks went away with one dispel.

It's difficult to dispel your own buff or debuff but you can do it. And a dispel of it knocks all stacks off.

[HarveyMilk]

Also realize that most melee-focused FvS who mostly didn't have the smiting line at all... are losing AP's from a bunch of other places. Though FvS arent' really all that AP limited as a class.

Most caster-focused FvS also had to dump AP's into smiting, which they, for the most part, ignored previously. So that's a wash.

I'm not asking for a nerf, I'm asking for a reality check on the damage that esos WF FvS can pump out now, along with a buff for higher wis FvS.

[Traver]

My evoker still can out dps my melee if sp is not a concern, rather easily. Comet fall and searing do nice dps since 9.

Also free curelight and better healing. Like I said, i had both and still prefered the evoker. Fvs dps is meh.

We should nerf esos carrying mages with DP clickies next!

[justagame]

Yes, the arcane dots have no saves, and don't scale with a caster stat. But divines have always been much more melee-friendly than arcanes, by nature. A dot this good that completely ignores caster stat is an oversight imo.

This is by design. Going as far back as D&D origins, divines have always had a mis of spells and melee. The melee was never as good as pure melees, and the spellcasting was not as damaging as arcanes.

And even with this spell, it's still true. We're talking about one spell here. One expensive spell (if you want to do the really good damage). Every other meaningful divine damaging spell is affected by wisdom. Blade barrier. Cometfall. Harm. You name it. Someone who dumps wisdom is going to miss out on all of those, BUT this spell (and they likely won't be fully specced for this one either). You really have a problem with divines having ONE DOT spell without a save, when arcanes have several (and significantly outdamage divines by any measure).

[HarveyMilk]

We should nerf esos carrying mages with DP clickies next!

Esos has been nerfed.

And the only 'mage' who would wield one would be a WF, because they can self-heal. Almost all other arcanes are just going to be too squishy in melee, unlike divines.

I for one have always welcomed our WF overlords. I just don't buy the idea that a diety would divinely punish equally well for a dump wis toaster and a max wis fleshy.

[HarveyMilk]

This is by design. Going as far back as D&D origins, divines have always had a mis of spells and melee. The melee was never as good as pure melees, and the spellcasting was not as damaging as arcanes.

And even with this spell, it's still true. We're talking about one spell here. One expensive spell (if you want to do the really good damage). Every other meaningful divine damaging spell is affected by wisdom. Blade barrier. Cometfall. Harm. You name it. Someone who dumps wisdom is going to miss out on all of those, BUT this spell (and they likely won't be fully specced for this one either). You really have a problem with divines having ONE DOT spell without a save, when arcanes have several (and significantly outdamage divines by any measure).

No, like I said previously, I'm happy to leave the save out. Just make the spell damage scale with wisdom so that dump wis builds aren't able to capitalize quite this much.

[patang01]

The reason I want it nerfed is not because of Arcane vs Divine balance, but caster FVS vs healer/melee FVS. The Divine Punishment DPS is identical regardless of your wisdom, spell focus feats, and spell focus items.

A caster-spec Cleric/FVS should have better spellcasting DPS against bosses than someone with 8 wis, but they pretty much don't.

It kinda sorta is since the Pre boosts the damage done. But what will nerfing accomplish the differense between a heaving fvs vs a caster fvs? I don't get it.

[justagame]

No, like I said previously, I'm happy to leave the save out. Just make the spell damage scale with wisdom so that dump wis builds aren't able to capitalize quite this much.

Well, you keep putting forth 2 solutions, one of which is indeed a save. But in either case, why?

As many have asked previously, what on earth is wrong with ONE SPELL that doesn't have a save? One. This isn't a spell you can lay down all the time on trash either. Someone who specs for melee is going to lose out on a lot of damage for BB, cometfall, harm, and zero instakill ability. And in all likelihood, won't be able to spec as much for DP via feats and enhancements. This will likely be even moreso when the melee PRE comes out. So stop arguing that a WF THF melee FVS gets all the dps benefits of a caster. It doesn't.

And in case it matters, I do not play, a wis-dumped, melee-specced FVS.

[Gratch]

A caster-spec Cleric/FVS should have better spellcasting DPS against bosses than someone with 8 wis, but they pretty much don't.

Why? This appears to be the root of this thread... but why? You could cast cometfall/etc during your DoTs and do slightly more damage (and more damage than a low wis divine).

Should we go start a thread that asks for a save to be added to Polar Ray? It's the most used damage spell by arcanes and 8-cha/int stat melee arcanes get as much damage from it as 40s-cha/int stat "spell focused" arcanes!!!!! (Obviously with U9 water savants and water-curse-applied, etc have efficiency effects.). That thread would sound a bit stupid... because arcanes have so many other spells that are cast that do have saves.

Just another counterpoint. Mostly this thread just displays that divines don't have enough spells overall. I don't know why a percentage of them want to nerf their best DoT spell instead of asking for more spells that use their aura, smiting line and DC's.

[Matuse]

And for the record, I never have or will play a Warforged. I can't stand them.

The spell is fine. Stop asking to be nerfed. Cause they'll do it. They'll turn it in a nimbus of light that's able to bypass the mantle on liches for trivial damage.

Nobody will come out ahead. Every divine will be left worse off for it. Plus, it's particularly stupid to be nerfing the spell for everyone, just because a miniscule percentage of players do what YOU consider to be "too much" damage. Which is rich, really. A fighter or barbarian with the eSoS will crush a FvS, even with triple stacked Divine Punishment running, and they can keep it up forever. DP is not cheap, triple stacking it is woefully inefficient on your SP, and you WILL be drained dry extremely fast.

[joneb1999]

Win

And thank you for the coming nerf to balance out PvP.

Im pretty sure they dont balance for pvp in any way whatsoever in DDO. But, they sure may nerf it if they are convinced its op for pve.

[Chai]

This isn't about "straight healer" specs at all.

Ok, its about straight caster specs then.

I'll say it clearly again:

This is about how much should WF Lord of the Blades out dmg divine casters that max their wisdom. Right now, because they can drop THF feats and completely dump wisdom, most take maximize and empower, and while they have a semi-gimp blade barrier because it saves for half all the time, their divine punishment is equal in power to their max wis caster cousins.

You are outlining how a lord of blades can drop melee DPS feats (loss) in order to enhance their casting DPS (gain), which basically consists of two spells. This is a build decision.

Obviously, the WF dumped wis crowd does not want divine punishment to save for half now. DP is the premier boss dps spell. It far outshines every other divine dmg spell, against bosses. This is not about blade barrier or cometfall or any other spell. This is about DP.

This is about the DPS pecking order, and its not possible to conceal this. The minute one of the spreadsheet gamers pipes up with a chart showing WF FvS up next to fighter and barbs in terms of DPS, we're gonna have a TV party tonight, alright!!!

I don't buy any of the following arguments:

"The following arguments" are the majority of whats in this thread.

"It's impossible to code a save." You don't know that.

30+ years of experience with computers says they can. 30+ years of experience with D&D says they should not. One thing that never ceases to amaze me is the lack of spell options in a D&D based game. Now that we get one that is different than others, people are all harping on it because they are afraid it will interrupt their precious DPS balance.

"Once the melee prestige class comes out and they add all these other great divine spells, it won't matter." You don't know that.

We do know what those PRE look like on paper as well as what those other spells look like on paper.

"You just hate WF fvs. Stop hating." I have some very close friends who play them and I actually really love them. But, they already have access to the most powerful weapon in the game: esos. And now they have access to the most powerful/effective boss-killing divine spell. Max wisdom divine casters need to be competitive, and DP on a WF blows max wisdom away.

Yes, because of their melee. When did max wis divine have an issue -vs- bosses? They solo bastion of power on elite where other DPS would just get crushed. Change the situation, and you change the DPS pecking order.

Solution #1

Will save for half damage: Too many robot tears. Finally they get an offensive divine spell that they can use on anyone, as effective as a max wis divine "caster," and they love their new toy. Fine.

If we had anywhere near half the total of no save style spells D&D has, we would see how powerful melee divine really are, as well as arcane casters for that matter. As it stands right now they have to provide us with 15% of whats available just to keep any reason at all of playing a melee in the game at higher levels.

Solution #2

Scale the damage with wisdom modifier: So WF DP does -2/stack (before potency, max, emp, etc) while higher wis casters get more damage. This closes the gap a bit. If it gets to high, there could be a sort of 'dice cap' on it at +12 wis modifier or something.

Your thoughts, please.

Not all offense type spells in D&D are based on salient ability (in this case WIS), and as such are not powered by that ability being maxed out. This is something DDO players will have to get used to if we are to have more spell options in this game, because many of the spells that got left out so far are ones which do NOT rely on having maxed salient ability to be powerful or effective.

I feel we are too woried about comparing DPS of apples -vs- DPS of oranges, on specific case scenarios (bosses). People who want more mana, and the ability to use insta kill plus have a better blade barrier are going to go max wisdom. People who want to have melee DPS + blade barrier that gets saved against 19/20 times will go max str, and understand they will have less mana and no reliable DC, which limits their spell pool. There are also the jack of all trades master of none monk splash TWF builds which do just fine in DDO as well. I dont think having one no save spell that works equally well between all builds is a game breaker at all. Melee is better DPS on bosses, while evoker is better against multiple trash. In D&D balance is not one number against another number, as more often its (X) is better than (Y) in (A) type situations, where (Y) is better than (X) in (B) type situations.

Yes, the arcane dots have no saves, and don't scale with a caster stat. But divines have always been much more melee-friendly than arcanes, by nature. A dot this good that completely ignores caster stat is an oversight imo.

DOTs this good that ignore salient ability have been around for a long time in D&D. Not putting them into the game is ignoring an entire fascet of the game itself. Yes, I understand that people will have to get used to the fact that every single offensive spell does not have its power directly linked to salient ability. Reliable DOTs are long overdue in DDO.

[Indoran]

plop another pvp thread????? go do some PvE at level and tell me something about that...

also you didnt mention the level at which you where running or against who... also PvP is not balanced... and couldn't care any less about that...

I find the spell to be fine and a welcome addition to my spellbook

[HarveyMilk]

Chai,

I like your answers here. I don't agree with all of them. But, you made me think of Solution #3:

Change Divine Punishment to good damage and lower it slightly.

Change the AoV II debuff to a higher proc rate, and drop good from it's boosted power. I think that would balance out... if a full stack was common, but not raising good dmg, it'd be fine.

They might have to change the lowered fort too, but let's leave that aside for now.

Then it wouldn't be as widely useful as light, nor benefit from AoV debuff.

Add a new divine dot that is light, saves for half based on will save, and does slightly more damage. That way high wis casters would apply and juggle both, while melee souls that dump wis could juggle both or just DP, depending on whether it's worth it sp and melee-wise for them. IE, if they are swinging around an esos that does much more dmg than a dot that is being saved for half every time, or if they are conserving sp, then they'll just melee and use DP.

This way divine gets more than one dot, like arcanes, and caster fvs single target goes up while melee fvs doesn't lose DP.

How's that?

[orakio]

Most caster-focused FvS also had to dump AP's into smiting, which they, for the most part, ignored previously. So that's a wash.

I'm not asking for a nerf, I'm asking for a reality check on the damage that esos WF FvS can pump out now, along with a buff for higher wis FvS.

I suppose the question is, if a FvS regardless of race has the full smiting line and multiple metamagic feats with just PA and IC:whatever is it really a "Melee" FvS? To me this seems like a hybrid build that takes advantage of the inherent bonuses to FvS to make up for its lack of pure melee damage output.

Why should a character do less damage with this spell when they have EVERY other bonus that a "caster" FvS would have? This isn't a dc based spell, should not be a dc based spell, and the only reason you are pushing for it is cause you want to have higher numbers than somebody utilizing a build that basically has just slightly different focus than you (more melee less instead of dc based casting).