So what do we do with our Stalwarts?

[Captain_Wizbang]

There lies the question!

1 month ago I respec'ed a Kensai into a Stalwart Defender, and along with all the other intims' out there, what do we do with them now?

Yet another toon to sit on the shelf, while we wait for game mechanics to change, yet again?

[Sirea]

Uh, you swing your weapon instead of blocking and clicking a button?

[Chai]

TR them into hybrid hate tanks, which are replacing S&B.

[grodon9999]

TR them into hybrid hate tanks, which are replacing S&B.

S&B can still put out more hate (I think) so they will be viable as long as they have some DPS ability.

[unbongwah]

If you made a tank who can't do DPS, you made a bad tank (IMHO). And if you have a DPS tank, you...keep on DPSing.

[grodon9999]

My Stalwart will continue to kick Horoth's ass every Monday and Thursday like he's been doing for 6 months.

[Primalhowl]

It may actually get easier to intimitank boss fights because the physical damage mitigation from shield mastery (which happens before any passive DR) means you need to worry less about shield blocking anyway... more time swinging the S and less time hiding behind the B.

Furthermore, I expect the Devs will tweak the hate-boost from Intim up a bit once they see how it performs live.

[chodelord]

at level 20 both plate tanks and pajama tanks with enough raid gears and buffs can get meaningful ac without a shield so they don't need to wear one

forget tanking on your first life, it is just another noob trap

with the 15 second intim cooldown and no sticky aggro shields are totally useless except (maybe) in a few corner case raid situations, there will be no more attempting aggro control in 6 mans, just spam heal and burn down

post patch while leveling nobody should wear a shield except clerics/fvs/bards who have devotion on it, fighter/pal w/ shields are just leaving damage on the table

people smarter than me have done the math to show that the new intim "buff" to hate gen benefits twf users more than shield users

that said I have a long history of sub optimal toons so I'm going to TR my DoS into stalwart to play with the new shield feats

[SensaiRyu]

forget tanking on your first life, it is just another noob trap

Well I stepped into that noob trap and I'm often asked to tank hard-Sally or norm-Xyzzy. My first-life 32point SD THF started at lvl 15 with Sally and lvl 16 with Xyzzy. For my second life I plan to go TWF instead. I just don't use two-handed much at all... my GS bastard sword beats them for DPS and I won't make a GS two-hander.

But this is before U9. I have a feeling I'll have a harder time after U9. Can't wait to try it and see.

Looks like getting Levik's Defender set will be a must...

[sephiroth1084]

Looks like getting Levik's Defender set will be a must...

It's bridging equipment. There is better stuff out there (particular in the case of the bracers). Personally, if you have no interest in running epic content to acquire some of the stuff that would supplant something like DT armor, I'd go for the shield + Levik's on DT armor over the bracers, and put +20% healing amp on a ToD ring. The bracers represent a net loss in AC, and even more so if you have Insight +4 on your greensteel weapon.

If you're using bastard swords while tanking, I'd stick with THF. If you don't want to make a greensteel 2-hander, I recommend going after some of the easier to acquire epic 2-handers. The Epic Antique Greataxe, for example, is pretty similar to a Mineral II greataxe, and takes less time to acquire typically: most players I know who wanted to make one required less than 8 runs of Epic Snitch to get the Seal, 1-5 runs to get the Shard and the scrolls are available on the AH and forums typically, and shouldn't be too expensive. After that, it's just the requisite 30 total epics needed to slot Good on the thing to bypass almost all relevant DR.

If you swap to TWF, but want to continue being able to tank with a shield on occasion, your bastard sword is going to look pretty weak.

[Battlehawke]

Whatever you do....


Don't go play one of those other MMOs.

[sephiroth1084]

Uh, you swing your weapon instead of blocking and clicking a button?

This was working before and just got buffed, so I would presume...continue doing this, or leave off your poor decisions of the past to embrace the strategy/build you should have been using in the first place?

Basically, almost anything the S&B hate tank with the ability to intimidate was doing before will continue to be useful, with most of it getting a buff. If you merely respecced your enhancements from Kensai to Stalwart, you're probably in good stead, and can likely do another enhancement reset to push a little more DPS into your Stalwart set-up.

[SensaiRyu]

Thanks for the info Sephiroth. As a noob I'm still learning about all this equipment... I've seen the Epic SoS and Hellstroke, not the Epic Ancient Greataxe.

• Intimidate
  
  • A successful use of the intimidate skill now sets a player's threat with a monster equal to the highest threat opponent, plus a small buffer based on a player's (size-modified) intimidate skill. Players also gain a +50% threat multiplier to all attacks (melee, ranged, and spells) for a short period after successful intimidation. Intimidate now has a 15 second cooldown, but players will no longer automatically lose the monster's aggro after six seconds.
  • When using a shield, intimidate will get a longer lasting and more effective threat multiplier applied.

And with SD III stance you

...gain a 50% Competence bonus to melee threat generation.

And with gear you're getting ~20% more threat...

With a smart group a Stalwart Defender still looks playable. Perhaps someone consistently taking aggro away from the designated intimitank would either need to be the tank or slow down on hitting so the SD can maintain intim/aggro.

It would be nice to know what "intimidate will get a longer lasting and more effective" really means...

[MrWizard]

There lies the question!

1 month ago I respec'ed a Kensai into a Stalwart Defender, and along with all the other intims' out there, what do we do with them now?

Yet another toon to sit on the shelf, while we wait for game mechanics to change, yet again?

except for about 4 or 5 boss fights, nothing changes. Infact, intim is even better now, DR is more advanced and more effective....

in those few boss fights where it may matter, the Devs are still working over intim it seems. You should be fine. The only real test is horoth since you may need to swing on him a bit.

80% of the ToD runs I go in, the leaders detest intim or for some reason think it is 'broke' anyway so they use a hate tank. And with the drama on Lama I think those same leaders will detest it more and think it is even more useless.

However...the advantages of holding large groups of mobs, including archers, for an indefinite time until someone takes the aggro allows you to do much more than worry about the party so much and go to town beating things.


If you are tanking a boss and the party is afraid of a boss 'turning' then they will most likely not be able to pull aggro from you anyway. If they are not afraid of the boss turning then it really does not matter anyway.

I would just wait it out.
Again, it will only affect how you deal with about 4 fights in the entire game....and many misinformed people will not want you to tank because of intim, so just pile on back and swing away.


(why is everyone telling him to forget sword and board when he specifically said 'stalwart defender' and not 'sword and board fighter'? Or do you know he has a toon with no DPS or is a THF s/b user?)

[sephiroth1084]

Thanks for the info Sephiroth. As a noob I'm still learning about all this equipment... I've seen the Epic SoS and Hellstroke, not the Epic Ancient Greataxe.


And with SD III stance you
And with gear you're getting ~20% more threat...

With a smart group a Stalwart Defender still looks playable. Perhaps someone consistently taking aggro away from the designated intimitank would either need to be the tank or slow down on hitting so the SD can maintain intim/aggro.

That's how threat tanking works now, and it's getting better with the intimidate buff.

It would be nice to know what "intimidate will get a longer lasting and more effective" really means...

When using a shield, the duration of the threat multiplier increases to 12 seconds (from 6) and goes up to +100% hate (from +50%).

80% of the ToD runs I go in, the leaders detest intim or for some reason think it is 'broke' anyway so they use a hate tank. And with the drama on Lama I think those same leaders will detest it more and think it is even more useless.

It's not a mystery here. Intimidate went from: mash the button and lock the boss to becoming bugged where, if you hit intimidate just before, or just as the skill comes off cooldown, your new intimidate doesn't take effect. In ToD, this often means that Horoth either turns around to beat the party/guy you have glues to his ass while Sulu is down, or takes off across the room. Intimitanking was only a useful strategy because it was consistent, and then only just barely. As soon as it became inconsistent, it became rather pointless.

Sure, if you've experience with it, you can time your fresh intimidates to avoid the buggy behavior, but even people who have learned to deal with the bug will make a mistake now and then, while many, many more intimitanks likely haven't learned to become successful doing this most of the time, and that's what groups get exposed to.

It would be more accurate to say that groups who previously eschewed AC threat tanks will likely continue to do so for largely illogical reasons. Those are the same sorts of people who don't acknowledge rogues and monks as DPS. Not much to be done there.

[Captain_Wizbang]

(why is everyone telling him to forget sword and board when he specifically said 'stalwart defender' and not 'sword and board fighter'? Or do you know he has a toon with no DPS or is a THF s/b user?)

Thanks bud, as always you have sage advice, finally, someone took notice of the actual post.


"Lagin!!! Get your boots on!!"

[oberon131313]

it changes nothing for my SD, I built him with sword and board hate tanking in mind...intim was just icing.

[Primalhowl]

Well S&B is a reasonable assumption when someone says Stalwart given that some of the class features are aimed at shields. Looking back at the original post, there is no indication either way.

But you are both correct. There is nothing in the original post that says S&B style.

[sephiroth1084]

Well S&B is a reasonable assumption when someone says Stalwart given that some of the class features are aimed at shields. Looking back at the original post, there is no indication either way.

But you are both correct. There is nothing in the original post that says S&B style.

For a paladin, DoS could indicate S&B or not to men, since some of the benefits are universal and being pitted against the narrowly useful KotC and the off-beat HotD, but for a SD there's much less reason to go with that PrE over a Kensai if you aren't using a shield.

I believe (been a while since I did my fighter life) the DR 6 and AC +3 are both tied to your holding a shield (might be just the DR). Certainly SD gives you more Dex to AC, but it likely just ends up being cheaper Dex to AC than spending FAM and FSM enhancements unless you're rocking a ton of Dex. So, you gain +4 to +7 AC straight, a bonus on saves, a bonus to Con and a penalty to movement and a big penalty to DPS. And if you're interested in DPS enough to not want to take out a shield while tanking, the loss of damage and movement probably means more to you than the AC.

A DoS, by contrast, gains a +4 Str bonus that can be used against everything (in particular against stuff besides Evil Outsiders), more Con (more necessary than on the fighter) and more turns, which in turn can be powering more Divine Might and Righteousness, as well as an extra LoH.

So, when someone says they changed to a SD, one will assume that they are using a shield at least part of the time.