U9 Barbarian Intimitank

[xAlistairx]

SO! I'll just get right to it. Barbarians won't typically get very good AC. Rage gives a -2, Power Rage increases that loss...and usable AC is nearly impossible to achieve. With the changes to Shield Mastery, it is also becoming easier to mitigate incoming damage. I propose a build that can block so much incoming damage, with such a large HP pool, that he doesn't need AC to intimitank, and most likely will not die. Here he is, The Armored Armadillo (XD)!

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.8.2
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Armored Armadillo
Level 20 Chaotic Neutral Dwarf Male
(20 Barbarian) 
Hit Points: 452
Spell Points: 0 
BAB: 20\20\25\30\30
Fortitude: 18
Reflex: 5
Will: 5

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(28 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             16                    23
Dexterity             8                     8
Constitution         18                    23
Intelligence         10                    10
Wisdom                8                     8
Charisma             12                    12

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               1                    14
Bluff                 1                     1
Concentration         4                     6
Diplomacy             1                     1
Disable Device        n/a                   n/a
Haggle                1                     1
Heal                 -1                    -1
Hide                 -1                    -1
Intimidate            5                    24
Jump                  7                    29
Listen                3                    22
Move Silently        -1                    -1
Open Lock            n/a                   n/a
Perform               n/a                   n/a
Repair                0                     0
Search                0                     2
Spot                 -1                    -1
Swim                  3                     7
Tumble               n/a                   n/a
Use Magic Device      n/a                   n/a

{\b {\ul Notable Equipment }} \par Dragontouched Breastplate \par  \par Level 1 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Barbarian Damage Reduction Boost I
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Damage I
Enhancement: Barbarian Toughness I


Level 2 (Barbarian)
Enhancement: Barbarian Extend Rage I
Enhancement: Barbarian Extra Rage I
Enhancement: Barbarian Constitution I


Level 3 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Selected) Shield Mastery
Enhancement: Barbarian Improved Damage Reduction I
Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution I


Level 4 (Barbarian)
Enhancement: Barbarian Hardy Rage I
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Rage I
Enhancement: Dwarven Shield Mastery I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I


Level 5 (Barbarian)
Enhancement: Barbarian Damage Reduction Boost II
Enhancement: Dwarven Shield Mastery II


Level 6 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Selected) Tower Shield Proficiency
Enhancement: Barbarian Hardy Rage II
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Rage II


Level 7 (Barbarian)
Enhancement: Barbarian Constitution II


Level 8 (Barbarian)
Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution II


Level 9 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Damage II


Level 10 (Barbarian)
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Barbarian Toughness II


Level 11 (Barbarian)
Enhancement: Barbarian Improved Damage Reduction II


Level 12 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Shield Mastery
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Attack I


Level 13 (Barbarian)
Enhancement: Barbarian Constitution III


Level 14 (Barbarian)
Enhancement: Dwarven Shield Mastery III


Level 15 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Shield Bash
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Rage III


Level 16 (Barbarian)
Enhancement: Barbarian Hardy Rage III
Enhancement: Racial Toughness III


Level 17 (Barbarian)
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Rage IV


Level 18 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
Enhancement: Barbarian Damage Reduction Boost III


Level 19 (Barbarian)
Enhancement: Barbarian Damage Reduction Boost IV


Level 20 (Barbarian)
Enhancement: Barbarian Extra Action Boost I
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Attack I
Enhancement: Barbarian Might

Many factors contribute to the low likelihood of his demise:

SHIELD MASTERY:

With the feat changes, he will take 25% less damage from incoming hits.

DR:

One of the 2 main advantages of barbarian. Just standing around, A. Armadillo has 9 DR (7 Barb+2 Enhancement.) For 2 minutes per rest, he has 15 DR (DR boost), again, just standing around. Then, there's his blocking DR which stacks with other sources.. According to the formula he will have-

+10 (BAB/2)
+2 (Standard)
+4 (Tower Shield)
+3 (Dwarven Enhancements)

So, 19 stacking DR. When blocking, A. Armadillo will have 28 usually. But for 2 minutes total per rest, he will have a total of 34 DR when blocking.

HEALTH:

Finally, his health. Naked, he'll have 482 HP with just a +2 Con tome and Draconic Vitality. So-

+482 (base)
+60 (+6 Con Item)
+30 (GFL Item)
+20 (Toughness)

Is 592 with easy-to-obtain gear. Then there's rage-

+80 (Mighty Rage)
+40 (Hardy Rage III and odd base)

So you end up with 712 without min/max gear.


There you have it, the Armored Armadillo. Max of 34 DR, 45% incoming damage decrease, and 712 raged HP. He will definitely be difficult to take down.

NOTE: Any cockiness was used for comedic effect, though I seriously do think this will be a good build.

[theboatman]

Not sure how you are getting 45% reduction.

Shield Mastery with a tower shield is 20% reduction in physical damage.

Improved Shield Mastery adds 5% on top of that, for a total of 25%.

Not to mention you don't have cleave, so you cant unlock the pre's for the higher crit modifiers; without some (lots) of hate gear, you may have dr and low physical damage, but you will still take full magic damage plus lose threat to the dps.

[xAlistairx]

Not sure how you are getting 45% reduction.

Shield Mastery with a tower shield is 20% reduction in physical damage.

Improved Shield Mastery adds 5% on top of that, for a total of 25%.

Not to mention you don't have cleave, so you cant unlock the pre's for the higher crit modifiers; without some (lots) of hate gear, you may have dr and low physical damage, but you will still take full magic damage plus lose threat to the dps.

True, I misread it. 45% would have been a ton.

I didn't take cleave because I don't know what would be worth giving up to get it and the enhancements. I'd be losing 1 feat and 8 AP for a little bit more DPS. It will probably do more damage than your average intimitank, but much less than a DPS barbarian.

And losing the threat isn't really a huge risk. Intimidate is maxed and my damage is fairly decent. With some hate gear (maybe just incite 20% on DT armor) I should probably be able to keep it.

EDIT: Keep failing reading checks haha. Thought you meant magic weapon damage. As far as just plain magic, I have to count on my health to counter that. Once the Occult Slayer PrE comes out, I'd take it on this build in a heartbeat. Unless you can tell me some way to counter magic without sacrificing anything major, of course.

[Entelech]

Congratulations, you've managed to turn a Barbarian into a Sword and Board Fighter.

Multiclass some Cleric in there, and you'll have reinvented the Paladin.

[xAlistairx]

Congratulations, you've managed to turn a Barbarian into a Sword and Board Fighter.

Multiclass some Cleric in there, and you'll have reinvented the Paladin.

Is the TWF Kensai a reinvention of the tempest? Is the THF Kensai a reinvention of the Frenzied Berserker? TWF Ranger with Favored Enemy: Evil Outsider a reinvention of the Knight of the Chalice?

Actually, IDK if it is. It just seems fun to take all hits head on rather than spend months getting an item that lets me kind of reliably dodge them. Barbs can definitely take the most head on hits.

[AylinIsAwesome]

Is the TWF Kensai a reinvention of the tempest? Is the THF Kensai a reinvention of the Frenzied Berserker? TWF Ranger with Favored Enemy: Evil Outsider a reinvention of the Knight of the Chalice?

Actually, IDK if it is. It just seems fun to take all hits head on rather than spend months getting an item that lets me kind of reliably dodge them. Barbs can definitely take the most head on hits.

I honestly don't think your build will get enough threat to hold aggro. You're missing FB, which is a huge gain to DPS for a Barb.

[xAlistairx]

I honestly don't think your build will get enough threat to hold aggro. You're missing FB, which is a huge gain to DPS for a Barb.

Alright, fair enough. What would you recommend giving up to get Cleave and all of the enhancements, however?

[AylinIsAwesome]

Alright, fair enough. What would you recommend giving up to get Cleave and all of the enhancements, however?

Improved Shield Bash for the feat for sure.

[elujin]

Alright, fair enough. What would you recommend giving up to get Cleave and all of the enhancements, however?

you could give up the capstone and splash 2 fighter

[Entelech]

Is the TWF Kensai a reinvention of the tempest? Is the THF Kensai a reinvention of the Frenzied Berserker? TWF Ranger with Favored Enemy: Evil Outsider a reinvention of the Knight of the Chalice?

Actually, IDK if it is. It just seems fun to take all hits head on rather than spend months getting an item that lets me kind of reliably dodge them. Barbs can definitely take the most head on hits.

Actually, in a way they are.

Now, don't get me wrong, you're doing character design the right way...setting a goal then designing to meet it. And you're doing something interesting here. It's just that the things that make a barbarian most unique - especially Rage - serve more DPS-oriented goals.

I like that you used Dwarf. Not very many folks are aware of the extra +3 blocking DR Dwarves can get via enhancements. And you're all about the DR.

Where you're weak is in (1) Non-Fort saves and (2) Feats. A splash of Fighter would certainly make it easier to get Cleave and Improved Shield Bash, at least.

[wax_on_wax_off]

I think it's a build with some interesting potential.

Some thoughts:
Perhaps Human would be a better fit for the extra feat?
Do you have to be pure? Could you splash fighter and/or rogue to pick up some more abilities?
Horc or WF would be decent options to get racial hate as in U9 the exclusivity with rage has been fixed.
WF would be an interesting fit if you can get a Docent of Defiance (but then better to just be pure fighter or paladin).
Dwarf would be good if/when they bring out Dwarven Defender.

I think you've missed some blocking DR potential. With a Lorikk's or Levik's you've got 15 DR from the shield, +10 BAB, +2 base, +3 dwarven, +6 shield mastery/improved shield mastery = 36 blocking + 15 from DoD = 51 blocking DR possible, assuming that shield mastery has added damage resistance to the additional DR and not replaced it.

The real potential in the build comes if you can get enough healing amp that a FvS can heal you with their capstone while your tanking Horoth and not use SP. For that you probably need human or half-elf base race and +10/20/30 from items, THEN maybe you have a build to be reckoned with.

[xAlistairx]

I think it's a build with some interesting potential.

Some thoughts:
Perhaps Human would be a better fit for the extra feat?
Do you have to be pure? Could you splash fighter and/or rogue to pick up some more abilities?
Horc or WF would be decent options to get racial hate as in U9 the exclusivity with rage has been fixed.
WF would be an interesting fit if you can get a Docent of Defiance (but then better to just be pure fighter or paladin).
Dwarf would be good if/when they bring out Dwarven Defender.

I think you've missed some blocking DR potential. With a Lorikk's or Levik's you've got 15 DR from the shield, +10 BAB, +2 base, +3 dwarven, +6 shield mastery/improved shield mastery = 36 blocking + 15 from DoD = 51 blocking DR possible, assuming that shield mastery has added damage resistance to the additional DR and not replaced it.

The real potential in the build comes if you can get enough healing amp that a FvS can heal you with their capstone while your tanking Horoth and not use SP. For that you probably need human or half-elf base race and +10/20/30 from items, THEN maybe you have a build to be reckoned with.

Thanks! About the calculations, I'm pretty sure it replaced the DR, not added to it. But yeah, I calculated it all using non-optimal gear so it could be effective without months of grind. Ideally, it would have more HP and DR than this with all the best gear.

About the splash, I'd lose 4 strength, 2 raged constitution, and 1 DR. IDK if evasion or an extra feat are worth that. It might be, but I'm not sure yet.

Human is a definite possibility for the healing amp. The disadvantage would be a loss of 40 HP and 3 blocking DR. An extra feat and healing amp would definitely be awesome though. I am planning on DD coming out at some point, so Dwarves will be ideal at that point. Once DD and Occult Slayer come out, this build will be one of the best.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Thanks! About the calculations, I'm pretty sure it replaced the DR, not added to it. But yeah, I calculated it all using non-optimal gear so it could be effective without months of grind. Ideally, it would have more HP and DR than this with all the best gear.

About the splash, I'd lose 4 strength, 2 raged constitution, and 1 DR. IDK if evasion or an extra feat are worth that. It might be, but I'm not sure yet.

Human is a definite possibility for the healing amp. The disadvantage would be a loss of 40 HP and 3 blocking DR. An extra feat and healing amp would definitely be awesome though. I am planning on DD coming out at some point, so Dwarves will be ideal at that point. Once DD and Occult Slayer come out, this build will be one of the best.

Until Dwarven Defender comes out I'd suggest to shelve the idea of going Dwarf. The blocking DR while interesting is actually less useful in U9 because it will be impossible to lock a boss down with intimidate and shield block because of the change to the mechanics, healing amp on the other hand will make this a workable build. The new way to tank with a shield will be to do so while attacking and there generating hate is the priority, no point in all the tanking qualities if you can't tank a raid.

Furthermore, I'd suggest that you need 2 goals for your build: Goal 1: Be a Tank, be able to tank raids. Goal 2: Have DPS for the times when you can't tank (95% of the time). Truthfully, tanking isn't that useful levels 1-19, occasionally it can be cool and very useful but the time that tanking really shines in when you hit level 20 and do the cool end game raids, if you can't contribute DPS for the times when you're not tanking then people generally won't want to know you.

What you need for DPS: Improved Critical: Slashing (or possibly bludgeoning), Power Attack, Cleave (for frenzied berzerker).
These feats serve 2 purposes; DPS for the times when you're not tanking and DPS for the times when you ARE tanking, as without it you won't be able to hold the attention of whatever it is that you are trying to tank.

What you need for tanking: Shield Mastery.

Optionals:
DPS: THF'ing feat line, can be good when tanking (with a dwarven axe or bastard sword) and excellent when DPS'ing due to the class abilities that barbarians get.
Tanking: Improved Shield Mastery, Shield Bash, Toughness

10 feats there, 11 if you want barstard sword proficiency.

A human with 2 levels of fighter could have all of those feats except for 1, I'd drop Improved Shield Mastery perhaps. The fighter level also gives you tower shield proficiency for free. As far as what you gain from taking 2 fighter, well, 5 strength (-2 mighty rage, -2 capstone, +1 fighter strength, +2 frenzied berzerker amrath set, +2 frenzy, +4 death frenzy), those 2 feats and a crapload of DPS (4d6 greater vicious and 2d6 vicious damage on every hit, applies to glancing blows too which you get when using a bastard sword or dwarven axe). You lose 1 point of damage reduction (ouch) and those nice bonuses to glancing blows that a level 20 barbarian has.

If I wanted to stay pure I'd go human and take: power attack, cleave, THF, ITHF, GTHF, shield mastery, improved critical: slashing, toughness.

This would result in not being proficient when wielding the bastard sword which I would hope still gives glancing blows.

Enhancements wise, I'd just assume that they'll work out, as they will. DR boost while handy isn't going to make a build, I'd probably ditch it.

1 significant dilemma is that because you will consistently get hit you'll be vulnerable to effects such as healing curse making you harder to heal in 2 of the most commonly run raids (VoD and ToD).

As you can see most of my suggestions involve doing more damage. Fact is, you can make a character that is quite hard to kill which is what you've described above however he doesn't really have any capacity to hold the aggro of the bosses, and if you can't do that then there isn't any point in the first place, just a suggestion.

[Cam_Neely]

Horc or WF would be decent options to get racial hate as in U9 the exclusivity with rage has been fixed..

Do you have the link for this? I did not see it in the lamda release notes.

Tk

/on topic.

Why do this on a Barb? You seem to be giving up alot to make it even a decent option. With Pally or Fighter, it seems you could make a very good version of what you are making without dumping DPS

[wax_on_wax_off]

Do you have the link for this? I did not see it in the lamda release notes.

Tk

/on topic.

Why do this on a Barb? You seem to be giving up alot to make it even a decent option. With Pally or Fighter, it seems you could make a very good version of what you are making without dumping DPS

Just search for brute fighting at http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=206066

barbarian has good potential to tank, hell, everyone barbarian tanks anyway but just causes a horrible SP sink. 25% damage mitigation will make this viable without gimping DPS.

WF 20 barbarian build with shield mastery instead of stunning blow and you're pretty much sorted.
WF 18/2 barbarian could pick up a couple more feats (maybe required if glancing blows aren't given if you don't have proficiency).

Human is another option if you can get healing amp up and the extra feat and skill points are nice.

UMD, Intimidate and balance are no brainers for skills.

Enhancements ... well, just fit in what you can.

[xAlistairx]

Improved Shield Bash for the feat for sure.

I was thinking so myself, but that is taken at level 15. A bit late to be catching up on all of those enhancements. Actually, I'm like definitely not going to do it. I can't afford to lose 18 AP (Barb Damage Boost I-IV and FB I-III)

Actually, in a way they are.

Now, don't get me wrong, you're doing character design the right way...setting a goal then designing to meet it. And you're doing something interesting here. It's just that the things that make a barbarian most unique - especially Rage - serve more DPS-oriented goals.

I like that you used Dwarf. Not very many folks are aware of the extra +3 blocking DR Dwarves can get via enhancements. And you're all about the DR.

Where you're weak is in (1) Non-Fort saves and (2) Feats. A splash of Fighter would certainly make it easier to get Cleave and Improved Shield Bash, at least.

Sorry if I came off as rude. I just meant it as serious questions. Like, if I'm using my class in a way that's typically reserved for another class, does that mean I'm reinventing it or just playing a different way?

Thanks. I was like "Hmm... how can I get max damage mitigation?" And that is definitely what I'm going for.

My saves are pretty poor, admittedly. IDK what to do about it, honestly. Any splash and I'll be giving up some HP, 2 rage con, 2 rage str, 2 str overall, 1 rage use, and 1 DR.

I'm not taking Frenzied Berserker. I'm just going to throw that out there. Like I said, I cannot afford to lose 18 AP. So, cleave won't really matter. If I were to take any splash, it would be 2 rogue. I probably won't, though. I just have to hope my health can cushion whatever magic blow I take until Occult Slayer comes out (assuming it's useful.)

[Entelech]

I was thinking so myself, but that is taken at level 15. A bit late to be catching up on all of those enhancements. Actually, I'm like definitely not going to do it. I can't afford to lose 18 AP (Barb Damage Boost I-IV and FB I-III)



Sorry if I came off as rude. I just meant it as serious questions. Like, if I'm using my class in a way that's typically reserved for another class, does that mean I'm reinventing it or just playing a different way?

Thanks. I was like "Hmm... how can I get max damage mitigation?" And that is definitely what I'm going for.

My saves are pretty poor, admittedly. IDK what to do about it, honestly. Any splash and I'll be giving up some HP, 2 rage con, 2 rage str, 2 str overall, 1 rage use, and 1 DR.

I'm not taking Frenzied Berserker. I'm just going to throw that out there. Like I said, I cannot afford to lose 18 AP. So, cleave won't really matter. If I were to take any splash, it would be 2 rogue. I probably won't, though. I just have to hope my health can cushion whatever magic blow I take until Occult Slayer comes out (assuming it's useful.)

You're going for damage mitigation...

Really, your big problem is not going to be hitpoints. You have plenty. Your problem will be casters. Elemental damage, Hold spells, and debuffs will be FAR more likely to kill you than any amount of trash melee. And your healer's going to be paying attention to you.

When you're trying to bend a class and make it work against its' usual role, I usually take that as a sign to multiclass a bit.

Also, to be honest, very little of what you listed as a 'penalty' for losing capstone matters to you. One DR is pretty minor, and the rest is irrelevant.

Unfortunately, I'm not sure that a 2 Rogue splash would give you enough Reflex save for evasion to matter. So yes, staying pure is probably one of several good options.

If you want something more self-sufficient, I might suggest something a bit more radical, like perhaps Barbarian 12 / Favored Soul 6 / Rogue 2.

The Favored Soul will hugely boost base saves, as well as giving Angel of Vengeance 1 for the aura of menace, some self buffs (protection from evil, for one) and some good self healing.

Or even go Favored Soul 12 / Barbarian 8. Frenzied Berserker really doesn't say 'Tank' to me.

You'd get Angel of Vengeance 2 and could pew-pew to your heart's content with that little archon buddy while you shield block. Your saves would be overwhelmingly better, you would be essentially 100% self healing, and you'd get some elemental resists that work even when hugging a beholder.

[Shade]

With the feat changes, he will take 25% less damage from incoming hits.

Yea. But youll kill stuff more then 25% slower.
Youll generate a lot less then 25% less hate.
Youll be a rather poor barbarian.

The intimidate changes help barbs tank. There sweet and work awesome on al my builds, i already edited my half orc build to include it, and will put it on my others soon.

I tried it out today, and was able to intimidate most epic bosses in the lamanai even, gaining back agro worth 10s if not 100s of thousands of damage.

Barbs tank with hitpoints, dr and saves. Not shields.

There is a time and a place to wip out the shield, but its not while your attacking. It's after you've geenerated the threat needed to keep the boss locked, and when the healer is low on sp. Turtle up, let him know to just heal scroll and save pots. I do it occoasonally on tod.

Generate the threat with THF or TWF. There incredibly more effective at that, and also making things dead. Barbs job #1 is make things dead.. Tanking it? thats always secondary to the job #1.

Check out my builds, all designed to be excellent tanks, and can use intimidate. 12+ base cha not required to make it work either. especially not on tr builds, as the past life feats gets ya a couple points in there too.

PS: Your "max" DR calcs are a bit off. My barb with no shield feats gets over 30 DR. Think you said something about 4 DR for a tower shield? Get a hound shield, those are 15 DR. Altneratives are epic shields, which are 12, but upgradable to 13.

[Entelech]

A couple more side notes:

(1) Don't worry about 'coming off as rude" - you didn't. I am very direct, and appreciate candor and directness in return.

(2) Weirdly, from my own experiences with a sword and board build (a 12 Wizard / 6 fighter / 2 rogue Pale Master who tanks in undead form) the changes will make this build CRAZY against trash critters. Most of the time, I suspect you will not have to bother with blocking unless you have more than 3-5 critters on you.

(3) Also, guard effects are your friend, both for DPS and for holding aggro. My own intimitank uses Death Aura, Fire Shield, a LitII cloak, and other tricks to get aggro. Stack up enough greensteel guard items and you'll probably do fine intimming bosses.

(4) Improved Shield Bash is an absolute must-have. Along with a +5 Holy Mithral Tower Shield of Bashing (this will be craftable in U9). With the feat, you still get blocking DR while smacking bosses with your shield. So "is my shield a DR-breaker" suddenly becomes a relevant question for aggro generation.

[xAlistairx]

Guys, I'm not going to be blocking all of the time. Only like if I already positively have aggro. If you will notice, I took power attack, Imp. Critical Slashing, Imp. Shield Bash...I plan on attacking. Turtling up isn't Plan A. Plan A is count on 9 DR and 25% reduced damage to help you survive while smacking down on some baddies.

And Shade, those DR calcs weren't meant to be max, and neither were any of them. I was just showing with easy, simple to get gear, what you'll end up with.

If I go human, I'm just not too sure what I'd gain. By not taking dwarf, I'd lose proficiency with a glancing blow one-handed weapon, 2 damage with it, and 1 attack with it.

I would, however, get cleave and go the way that you're all telling me too. However, I'm still not sure that I'd get Frenzied Berserker. Is it REALLY that useful for a barb shield tank (not that they've really been done before)?

My net AP loss would be:
+6 Dwarf Shield Mastery
+6 Dwarf Axe Damage
+2 Dwarf Axe Attack
-12 Human Healing Amp
-8 F.B.
-10 Damage Boost 4 (unless I trade DR Boost 4 in for it...then this is negated)

So I'd lose 6 or 16 AP.

I actually see a way that can work, though. I'll skip out on Healing Amp 3 to save 6 AP, and I will trade in DR Boost 4 for Damage Boost 4. Then I'd lose no AP. I would lose some health, D Axe proficiency, some D Axe damage, and some to-hit. I'd gain FB and 20% healing amp.

I'm sort of brainstorming here. Do you guys think that is worth it?