TWF Crit machine

[Alex301]

Don't discount half-elf. Depending on dilettante and how you are calculating your damage half-elf can jump to the top.

If you assume power attack and enough STR to avoid missing then intuitively half-orc and warforged appear the top choices. Human, because of the theoretically higher STR, is next. After that it is all the same until halfling (which has the lowest possible STR).

Of course, that opens up the debate about whether you include SA and what if it doesn't count, etc. But, on a build that doesn't already have significant rogue levels or other forms of SA I think you'll find half-elf can come out on top very often.

Don't forget human versatility damage boost as another reason why human has an advantage over the other races.

Personally if I'm playing one of the main melee classes i won't be getting SA damage. I suppose it's really a matter of play style although ofc there are situations where a tank maybe holding the aggro. I prefer the raw damage bonus of horc over the SA damage bonus of helf/halfling.

[Therigar]

It's not a lack of knowledge of combat mechanics rather a lack of ability to crunch numbers. What your formula doesn't consider is anything that increases threat range such as seeker, fighter threat range, weapon focus (it increases your attack roll so I am guessing your threat range as well)...

Threat range can be increased by the feat Improved Critical or by the keen/impact weapon characteristic. The two do not stack. Both have the same effect -- they double the weapon's critical threat range.

The fighter Kensai Mastery III enhancement will increase the threat range by 1. As far as I can tell this is after the improved critical or keen/impact effect is applied.

Seeker does not increase crit threat range. Weapon focus does not increase crit threat range. AFAIK there are no other effects in the game to increase threat range.

I used the simplist examples to show how the mechanics work. But, doubling the threat range almost never results in a poor weapon becoming better. The pick, for example, goes to 19-20/x4 while the rapier goes to 15-20/x2. If we bump the pick to a heavy pick that is 25d6 vs the rapier's 25d6 -- they are exactly the same.

But, as has been pointed out, if you are looking for weapon effects that depend on critical hits to process then rapier is superior because it crits 3 times as often.

If you were to go Kensai Mastery III then you could get more damage from the heavy pick but you would still proc fewer actual crits. So choosing pick would make sense if you wanted damage but not if you wanted on crit effects.

Note, however, that khopesh is 1d8, 19-20/x3. With increased threat range it is 17-20. That is 27d8 on damage. Again, it represents the best option for damage because it strikes a balance point between number of crits and the crit multiplier.

Be aware that things like seeker can skew the results. Seeker adds its value to critical damage before the multiplier is applied. Seeker 6 (Bloodstone) gives +24 damage on each pick crit, +12 damage on each rapier crit and +18 damage on each khopesh crit. If the pick crits 2 times, the rapier 6 and the khopesh 4 then the bonus damage from seeker effects is 48, 72 and 72. Notice how the rapier's larger crit range becomes important to overall damage.

[Sweyn]

What..? That makes 0 sense. The party doesn't stand a better stance with a DPS down. Maybe you need to not base assumptions of a whole class based on some horrible puggers?

Woah! Calm down there sport.

[Therigar]

Don't forget human versatility damage boost as another reason why human has an advantage over the other races.

See, it all depends on how you are calculating the damage. Personally, I feel the boosts are too situational to really count.

Unless the situation is a known boss fight of a specific duration and we assume full boosts before the fight starts, these short term increases to damage or attack speed are really unreliable from my perspective.

But, this is why I said that it depends on how you want to calculate your DPS.

[MoonRunner]

Thanks a bunch, I really think I have a better concept on crit calculation now. It sounds like I want to take improved critical to double my threat range every weapon I equip and Kensie III to give me one additional point to threat range in my specialized weapon.

Now one last fact I want to confirm or bust. Seeker/Fighter crit accuracy: In reallity only increase damage as any respectable dps build should be able to hit often enough to confirm their crit without it. Is that correct?

[Alex301]

Yes, you should have no problems confirming critical hits. However items with the seeker property also improve your damage when you score criticals as well and so these will increase your dps. This is why items such as bloodstones are sought after. The critical accuracy enhancements, on the other hand, only help you confirm criticals and will not apply any additional damage.

[jillie]

Note that Fighter: Critical Accuracy III is necessary for Kensai III.

[Dandonk]

Heavy pick is 1d6, 20/x4. Longsword is 1d8, 19-20/x2.

Just figure the hits on 19 & 20. Heavy pick does 5d6 damage while longsword does 4d8. That is 5-30 vs 4-32.

Spoonman is correct, the damage is about the same.

Expand it to 19 of 20 hits and give +10 damage for 30 STR. Heavy pick is 22d6+220 vs longsword 21d8+210. That is 297 average vs 304.5.

Spoonman is still correct.

With the elimination of autocrits heavy picks are just another useless weapon. There is nothing they do that a different weapon won't do better.

Now go to 40 STR, get PA, a +5 weapon, bard song (let's say +7) and a set or two for +4 damage. Oh, and Improved crit. (seeker will help both equally)

So, the pick is: 25d6+900. Average: 987.5.
Longsword is: 23d8+828. Average: 931.5.

So now the pick is 6% better. And this is a baseline, doesn't count feats (for fighter), PA enh (barb/horc), past lifes, more sets or better bard song, or a prayer or paladin active PL feat. All these will help pick more.

(Disclaimer: If I did my math right, always a chance I didn't. Feel free to check)

[Therigar]

Now go to 40 STR

Have I mentioned in this thread that STR and other factors influence things? I try to mention those things because people can manipulate them to affect the outcomes.

But, do you know how common 40 STR actually is?

To start with, no character gets to 40 STR without boosts. Maximum STR is 20 base half-orc with orc and fighter enhancements (+5) and stat increases (+5). That gets the character to 30. Notice that this is a half-orc that we're intentionally pushing STR on.

Typical builds run 4 points less because they don't get the half-orc starting STR boost and they don't have the enhancements. It isn't at all uncommon for them to run 6 points less because of the build point investment. This is especially true if they've opted for the TWF feat line.

While +6 STR items are commonplace, +7 items are not. Neither are +3 exceptional STR items. Normally these are things players obtain only after a lot of farming. Which means they are already L20 in most cases when they acquire these types of boosts.

The same thing can be said for Yugo potions since you're going to be ~L18 before you ever hit Amarath questing. Likewise for +3/+4 tomes.

If we alter things to include barbarian rage then we lose base STR with the loss of fighter enhancements. Overall our STR is higher, but it is still a situation where we're looking at the final levels of a character's life before this really kicks in.

I'm not saying some players don't have 40+ STR characters. It is just really unusual for that to be the case at levels below ~18.

So, by that time you probably have a lot of gear options. Heavy pick was one of them because of the autocrit and mass holds on epic content. Scratch that now.

Heavy picks are about the same as longswords until you get those extra damage items and higher STR levels. It was a legitimate observation. And now, with U9 changes, there are several weapons that will be better choices for damage at the highest player levels.

So, if we're going to play the silly game it should be about comparing heavy picks to khopeshes or epic weapons. It is irrelevant that the pick might be better than the long sword at that point because nobody is using long swords anyways.

And, after U9, nobody should be using heavy picks either.

[Kinerd]

I am sorry but you are misquoting. You missed out the premise that I use in my example. Compare with this:

I read your entire post. My statement stands. The flaw in your analogy is that there need to be a group of taxis and a group of buses to be comparable to a group of melees.

Heavy picks are about the same as longswords until you get those extra damage items and higher STR levels. It was a legitimate observation. And now, with U9 changes, there are several weapons that will be better choices for damage at the highest player levels.

So, if we're going to play the silly game it should be about comparing heavy picks to khopeshes or epic weapons. It is irrelevant that the pick might be better than the long sword at that point because nobody is using long swords anyways.

Heavy picks are better than longswords for serious melee classes. Khopeshes are better still, but this does not change the fact that heavy picks are better than longswords.

[bartosy]

Don't discount half-elf. Depending on dilettante and how you are calculating your damage half-elf can jump to the top.

If you assume power attack and enough STR to avoid missing then intuitively half-orc and warforged appear the top choices. Human, because of the theoretically higher STR, is next. After that it is all the same until halfling (which has the lowest possible STR).

But, half-elf is an exception because they can match the human STR and they can get the rogue dilettante. And, depending on what the actual build is, the SA damage from the dilly will actually be higher than the STR and PA bonuses of both half-orc and WF.

Of course, that opens up the debate about whether you include SA and what if it doesn't count, etc. But, on a build that doesn't already have significant rogue levels or other forms of SA I think you'll find half-elf can come out on top very often.

sneak atk doesnt get multiplied like the pa orc and +2 str tho, and sneak atk in most cases is situational especially if you roll up a crit machine that has agro 80% of the time on yoru way to 20. Its true in a perfect situation sa is awesome but it does have its drawbacks especially for a dps crit build on your way to 20.

[Therigar]

Heavy picks are better than longswords for serious melee classes.

A serious melee class would use neither long sword nor heavy pick. Both are for amateurs come U9.

[Alex301]

But, do you know how common 40 STR actually is?

I'm not saying some players don't have 40+ STR characters. It is just really unusual for that to be the case at levels below ~18.
.

I would think most DPS focused characters would be hitting 40 str, or close to it at least, before level 18. Ofc we have to include boosts but anyone who knows what they're doing should be using them anyway and it would be inaccurate not to include them.

e.g. dwarf fighter: 18 base+ 4 levels+ 3 enhacements+ 1 tome+ 6 item+ 8 power surge= 40 strength

[Therigar]

I would think most DPS focused characters would be hitting 40 str, or close to it at least, before level 18. Ofc we have to include boosts but anyone who knows what they're doing should be using them anyway and it would be inaccurate not to include them.

e.g. dwarf fighter: 18 base+ 4 levels+ 3 enhacements+ 1 tome+ 6 item+ 8 power surge= 40 strength

Again, it is a matter of how you want to count things. Power surge for +8 seems awfully temporary to me. More realistic might be +2 rage spell and +4 rage from Madstone. But, even that assumes the character has Madstone boots. I've been playing on Orien since it launched and never pulled a pair of boots....

But, at least rages will be longer lasting.

Still, you are focused on the wrong point. The point is that with U9 only the stupid people will still be trying to make picks work. There are much better weapon choices. So, no matter how you crunch the numbers picks are going to be far behind.

Your dwarf, for example, would be better off with dwarven axe and not even need a special feat to use it.

Heavy pick was a win for a short time. It was discovered and rediscovered more than once. But, it was never especially popular except among those running epics where autocrits on mass held mobs was "the thing to do."

U9 changes that by eliminating autocrit. And that once again relegates heavy picks to the lower end of the weapons list for damage. It does not have an exceptional base damage and it has a horrible crit range.

Try running the numbers for your dwarven fighter using rapiers vs heavy picks with U9 in mind. Triple the crit range, half the crit multiplier, 1 point less base damage. If you need piercing that is the better choice. Slashing is scimitars, dwarven axes and khopeshes. Bludgeoning has always been a problem, but for high STR it is mauls.

Nobody who is serious about DPS will use picks once U9 goes live. I can find no case at all to be made for choosing that weapon.

[Alex301]

My main has 12 action boosts and i find this to be more than enough for most content. I could easily add more but i don't consider necessary and therefore see them to be a reliable source of extra strength. And while yes, anyone who does want maximum dps should choose khopeshes, there are people who like flavour builds or 'anything but another TWF khopesh' build. The points made here are still valid for them and are only accurate imo if we include the typical conditions people will be running around in.

I also pulled a pair of madstone boots before i hit cap, but i may just have been very lucky

[Shade]

in u9 after the auto crit nerf...

Well end up like this for dps:
1hander: Use a khopesh or reroll.
2hander: Use anything except a greatclub

khopesh needs the nerf bad. too little variety in that setup.

[Wraith_Sarevok]

in u9 after the auto crit nerf...

Well end up like this for dps:
1hander: Use a khopesh or reroll.
2hander: Use anything except a greatclub

khopesh needs the nerf bad. too little variety in that setup.

Hah, so quarterstaves and great swords are okay?

[blackdoguk]

in u9 after the auto crit nerf...


khopesh needs the nerf bad. too little variety in that setup.

giggle

[Kinerd]

Again, it is a matter of how you want to count things. Power surge for +8 seems awfully temporary to me. More realistic might be +2 rage spell and +4 rage from Madstone. But, even that assumes the character has Madstone boots. I've been playing on Orien since it launched and never pulled a pair of boots....

But, at least rages will be longer lasting.

Still, you are focused on the wrong point. The point is that with U9 only the stupid people will still be trying to make picks work. There are much better weapon choices. So, no matter how you crunch the numbers picks are going to be far behind.

Your dwarf, for example, would be better off with dwarven axe and not even need a special feat to use it.

Heavy pick was a win for a short time. It was discovered and rediscovered more than once. But, it was never especially popular except among those running epics where autocrits on mass held mobs was "the thing to do."

U9 changes that by eliminating autocrit. And that once again relegates heavy picks to the lower end of the weapons list for damage. It does not have an exceptional base damage and it has a horrible crit range.

Try running the numbers for your dwarven fighter using rapiers vs heavy picks with U9 in mind. Triple the crit range, half the crit multiplier, 1 point less base damage. If you need piercing that is the better choice. Slashing is scimitars, dwarven axes and khopeshes. Bludgeoning has always been a problem, but for high STR it is mauls.

Nobody who is serious about DPS will use picks once U9 goes live. I can find no case at all to be made for choosing that weapon.

You seem to be arguing two main points. First, that khopeshes will be universally superior to heavy picks in update 9 - this point everyone agrees with. Second, that heavy picks will be inferior to multiple other weapon bases, for instance longswords - this point is rubbish. Outside of dwarves, heavy picks are the #2 weapon choice for TWF fighters. This is in no way the "lower end".

[MoonRunner]

Everyone I apreciate your replies but let me remind you this post was about how to maximize crits with XXX weapon not which weapon is best. Let's end the which weapon is best before it goes too far. Thank you.