TWF Crit machine

[MoonRunner]

I almost hate to post this as there are so many threads close to this one, however I feel I would just be high jacking their post to get my questions answered as they mostly tend to lean toward rogue which isn't what I want.

I want to build a TWF who can take advantage of the light picks x4 multilier. Is this posible and feasable? Or would I sacrifice too much to use the light picks? I really don't want a rogue because as a healer (my main) I see WAY too many DPS rogues die. They just tend to be too expensive to keep alive and the party stands a better chance with them in my back pocket not burning SP.

Now I have played with some veteran builds but havent run them very high level and what I am finding is the THF still tends to be a little better. Even on a fighter that I thought I had specked for twf did a lot better when I switched to a greataxe. Granted this is only running him to about lvl 6.

I guess my real question is, is a light pick woth all this? If not is there a weapon combo worth going TWF? The main intention behind this toon is a low to no clickie toon I can play when I want a break from healing.

[Hutoth]

Not heavy pick?

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Kensai 3 is the first thing that leaps to mind for this.

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Edit: re THF vs TWF: TWFighters should prolly wield a nice 2-hander when they start out, until around the time they pick up Improved TWF. After that and into GTWF, a 2-hander would need ridiculous strength and one of the best weapons in the game to compete with a TWF wielding good khopeshes.

[Vyrn]

I really don't want a rogue because as a healer (my main) I see WAY too many DPS rogues die. They just tend to be too expensive to keep alive and the party stands a better chance with them in my back pocket not burning SP.

What..? That makes 0 sense. The party doesn't stand a better stance with a DPS down. Maybe you need to not base assumptions of a whole class based on some horrible puggers?

[blackdoguk]

What..? That makes 0 sense. The party doesn't stand a better stance with a DPS down. Maybe you need to not base assumptions of a whole class based on some horrible puggers?

A fair point but you fail to address the op's question.

With the upcoming change to the way auto crit works picks have lost a lot of their appeal even with the better crit profile than the khopesh. IMO for a critting beast i would look at either kensai 3 as was mentioned above or if your looking for something with some serious oomph you might try a Frenzy Berserker 3 Khopesh Barb, with a fighter spash so you can fit in your feats (twf itwf gtwf Ic Slash, Cleave, Stunning Blow and perhaps a toughness.) This encompasses a decent marriage of low finger bashing, high survivability (if played conservatively) and serious damage ( towards the end with gear and buffs you can easily clear 400 - 450 damage on a single one armed swing , with which the kensai simply cant compete - this is due to your x 5 multiplier.) So on a critical strike with the changes made to helpless one could feasibly hit 700+ damage with a single one armed strike - not bad at all for a quick juant away from the blue bar.

[Spoonman457]

with the removal of auto crit situations as of u9, picks (heavy or light) only crit on a roll of 20, or 5% of hits, a Kensai 3 fighter will get crits off of picks, about 15 -20% of hits, while the same build built for khopeshes will get x3 crits on about 50% of hits, this means post u9 heavy picks will do about the same dps as long swords, meaning sub standard dps.

On the other hand, many people will be looking to get rid of their picks, and you may be able to get them cheap, and the buff to dispelling/banishing/smiting weapons may give picks a chance, but over all, I would say they are looking at a major nerf in the next update.

you may also find that post u9 that many people will feel that a pick wielder is a waste of a party slot, and there for it may be harder than usual to find a PUG.

how ever if you like picks, and just don't care that you will be doing only minimal damage than go for it, for a build I would recommend str as high as you can but first, 15 - 16 dex, and max con (note ITWF and GTWF require a base dex of 17 base dex = starting dex + tome + level ups) everything else is a dump stat for a fighter, and I would stay pure as you will need the capstone and as many feats as possible in order to counter act the lack of dps any pick build will have.

Good Luck

[Alex301]

A fair point but you fail to address the op's question.

400 - 450 damage on a single one armed swing , with which the kensai simply cant compete.

Just to make sure this is not misinterpreted; a fighter cannot compete with barbarians for highest damage per swing, but this does not mean that a fighter will be doing less damage per second. They still get things like 10% double strike chance and an extended crit range.

As stated before, TWF doesn't really shine until you have GTWF and some nice weapons with lots of extra damage, e.g. lit II khopeshes. While you're leveling you'll probably be better off with a two handed weapon. With the changes coming in U9 weapons with a high crit multiplier are no longer as useful and so a falchion or khopeshes are the ideal weapon choices for most situations.

[CaptainPurge]

I'm running a TWF heavy pick Kensai III, dual EG's with a high DC stunning blow. Completed him (34 pt build) a couple months before the U9 stuff. Was pretty bummed when I found out they were killing auto-crit, after all, that's what this build was designed for (namely, epics). I will be re-speccing be it TR or LR. I would not suggest anyone go the heavy pick route once U9 kicks in. << panda is sad

[Bufo_Alvarius]

this means post u9 heavy picks will do about the same dps as long swords, meaning sub standard dps.

Exaggerate much? Post nerf picks will still have the profile equivalent of scimi/rapier.

[Tom_Hunters]

TWF Crit machine

Quick answer is ranger with 2 khopesh. Period

Exaggerate much? Post nerf picks will still have the profile equivalent of scimi/rapier.

It's theoretically true, but in most cases (non epic) when 5 melee or more attacking one mob, each might just land 3 or 4 hits as i see. A crit in 3 is definitely better than a crit in 10.

[TheDearLeader]

Here's a vote for a pure Kensei III. If we're talking TWF, I'd have to say Human/Horc with Khopeshes, or Elf with Scimmies.

[MoonRunner]

Thanks for all the replies guys.

Ok, picks are out. I am thinking Kensie III Kopesh Dwarf or Horc (if I can spend the TP.)

[Alex301]

in terms of damage i'd imagine its horc>wf>human>dwarf if you're using khopeshes. Half-orc gives you 4 higher str and the the PA enhancements while human gives the damage boost from human versatility and the option to increase your strength by one through enhancements.

So if you're willing to spend tp go horc, if not go human. This is purely for dps though. Dwarf has some obvious advantages such has higher con.

[biggin]

I have a FB 3 HPicker and he's fun to play. You just have to realize that is what they are for. They won't be top DPS in any situation other than autocrit which is getting nerfed. But it isn't as if you walk up to (most) groups and they'll kick you for being HP specced. It's a fun to play flavor build and if you just like seeing those big one handed crits than go for it.

Just build it the best you can, gear it out to make it viable and play smart. Noone can really ask more of you than that.

[CaptainPurge]

Thanks for all the replies guys.

Ok, picks are out. I am thinking Kensie III Kopesh Dwarf or Horc (if I can spend the TP.)

If dwarf, skip the khopesh feat, take the racial axe enhancements and use dwarven axes for free. It's well documented the difference in DPS is nearly statistically insignificant so why waste a feat. I am biased, however.

[Kinerd]

In the absence of fortification, the best one-handed weapon is khopesh. 15 regular hits, 4 critical hits rolled three times = 27 hits.

The second best one-handed weapons are rapiers, scimitars, and picks. 13 regular hits, 6 critical hits rolled twice or 17 regular hits, 2 critical hits rolled four times each = 25 hits.

In the hands of a kensei III, these numbers become 14 + 5 * 3 = 29, 12 + 7 * 2 = 26, 16 + 3 * 4 = 28. Put another way, in the hands of a kensei III a heavy pick is as superior to a rapier as a khopesh is to a scimitar in the hands of a barbarian.

Kensei III have two important clickies - Power Surge and Haste Boost. This is not a lot of clickies for a melee.

this means post u9 heavy picks will do about the same dps as long swords, meaning sub standard dps.

A crit in 3 is definitely better than a crit in 10.

These statements are incorrect.

[Tom_Hunters]

These statements are incorrect.

I am sorry but you are misquoting. You missed out the premise that I use in my example. Compare with this:

It's theoretically true, but in most cases (non epic) when 5 melee or more attacking one mob, each might just land 3 or 4 hits as i see. A crit in 3 is definitely better than a crit in 10.

What I want to emphasize is, when you are only landing 3 to 4 hits before a mob die, using a wide crit range weapon you will be nearly assured a crit during your hits, on the other hand a narrow crit range weapon might not grant you a crit at all. This won't make any difference when you need to hit many times (both are average 23 hits over 20 attacks), but when you only hit very few times there is a bias.

Take this as an example. There are a post office and a church, and there is a road between them, and a number of people currently want to travel from one to the other. Which mode of transportation should u choose?
A. walk + taxi
B. walk + bus, where a taxi is more frequent but a bus carries more, yet their capacity over time is the same

Now if the number of people is very large, there is practically no difference between them; yet when the number is verysmall, a more frequent yet less load taxi is more advantageous simply because it turns up more. OTOH the big bus might run the risk of not filling full when one finally arrives.

[Therigar]

Granted this is only running him to about lvl 6.

What you do not know and the mistakes you make concerning other builds seems enough to fill volumes.

The biggest issue is your lack of understanding about the basic mechanics of DDO combat.

All weapons have a critical range and a critical multiplier. A big critical multiplier on a weapon with a small critical range may be no better than a small critical multiplier on a weapon with a large critical range.

Let's look at your choice of light pick. A light pick does 1d4 base damage, has a critical range of 20 (meaning, you only score a chance for a critical if you roll a 20) and has a x4 multiplier.

Let's assume that the one chance you have for a critical actually succeeds. You are going to do 4d4 damage that one time.

Most discussions on damage assume that you hit 19 of 20 times (because a roll of 1 always misses) and that you always get your criticals. What this means is that you would hit 18 times for 1d4 each and 1 time for 4d4. That is 22d4 damage.

A rapier does 1d6 base damage, has a critical range of 18-20 and has a x2 multiplier. Using the same idea this means it hits 16 times for 1d6 per hit and 3 times for 2d6 per hit. That is 22d6 damage.

So, the weapon with the lower crit multiplier does more damage because it has a larger crit range and better base damage.

Weapons with small crit ranges and large crit multipliers are only better when the target can be automatically hit for crits. The auto crit condition is being changed with update 9. The change will mean that it is not advantageous to use weapons with low crit ranges even though they have large crit multipliers.

Instead, players will balance the crit range and crit multiplier with the base damage and other factors that are also included during a critical hit. Two of the most common added factors are STR and seeker damage.

As to the part that I quoted, TWF is well behind THF for the first several character levels. A character without any TWF feats only gets their off-hand attack 20% of the time. Because two-handed weapons do more base damage than one-handed weapons you will always see bigger results on a two-handed hit.

Every two-weapon fighting feat increases the chance for an off-hand attack by 20%. TWF makes the total chance 40%, ITWF raises it to 60% and GTWF increases the total to 80%.

The ranger enhancements Tempest I and Tempest II both add 10% more chance. A ranger with the full TWF feat line and Tempest II will have a 100% chance to make their off-hand attack.

The one-handed attacks produce less damage. But, because they result in an off-hand attack when using two weapons, the total damage is more once you reach the higher levels.

Greater two weapon fighting requires a base attack bonus of 11. That means you won't get GTWF until you are at least L11 -- even later if you are not a full BAB class.

Tempest II isn't available to a ranger until L12.

What it all says is that you won't really see the benefits of the TWF fighting style until you are L11 or higher.

Unfortunately, you are basing your choices on some rather bad information -- namely your lack of experience playing the higher level characters.

If you really want a TWF crit machine* what you should be looking at is a ranger build that has maximum STR and uses one of these weapons: rapier (drow or elf), scimitar (elf), dwarven axe (dwarf) or khopesh (all other races**).

Rapier and scimitar have the highest critical range but they have a lower crit multiplier. Dwarven axe has a low critical range but a high crit multiplier and also has a high base damage. But, khopesh is the current best choice for balance among crit range, crit multiplier and base damage.

This advice is going to be more valid with update 9 when auto crits disappear.

*Note 1: My assumption is that you just want to proc crits for damage. If you are looking at effects on critical hits like enfeebling and such then your best bet is rapier or scimitar as they have the biggest crit ranges.


**Note 2: Drow, dwarf and elf will all do more damage with khopesh than with their racially preferred weapons. The reason to skip khopesh is because you don't need to spend an exotic weapon feat on it.

[Therigar]

in terms of damage i'd imagine its horc>wf>human>dwarf if you're using khopeshes.

Don't discount half-elf. Depending on dilettante and how you are calculating your damage half-elf can jump to the top.

If you assume power attack and enough STR to avoid missing then intuitively half-orc and warforged appear the top choices. Human, because of the theoretically higher STR, is next. After that it is all the same until halfling (which has the lowest possible STR).

But, half-elf is an exception because they can match the human STR and they can get the rogue dilettante. And, depending on what the actual build is, the SA damage from the dilly will actually be higher than the STR and PA bonuses of both half-orc and WF.

Of course, that opens up the debate about whether you include SA and what if it doesn't count, etc. But, on a build that doesn't already have significant rogue levels or other forms of SA I think you'll find half-elf can come out on top very often.

[Therigar]

this means post u9 heavy picks will do about the same dps as long swords, meaning sub standard dps.

Heavy pick is 1d6, 20/x4. Longsword is 1d8, 19-20/x2.

Just figure the hits on 19 & 20. Heavy pick does 5d6 damage while longsword does 4d8. That is 5-30 vs 4-32.

Spoonman is correct, the damage is about the same.

Expand it to 19 of 20 hits and give +10 damage for 30 STR. Heavy pick is 22d6+220 vs longsword 21d8+210. That is 297 average vs 304.5.

Spoonman is still correct.

With the elimination of autocrits heavy picks are just another useless weapon. There is nothing they do that a different weapon won't do better.

[MoonRunner]

It's not a lack of knowledge of combat mechanics rather a lack of ability to crunch numbers. What your formula doesn't consider is anything that increases threat range such as seeker, fighter threat range, weapon focus (it increases your attack roll so I am guessing your threat range as well)... things of this nature. Now it has been a good 20+ years since I have played a PnP so I don't know exactly what all is available to increase threat range but if I can increase MY threat range by say +5 then that 20 only crit weapon now crits on a roll of 15 or higher where that 18-20 weapon is increased to 13-20. If my assumptions are correct (which is why I started this to make sure I understand this correctly) that means I have a 25% chance to crit with a pick however with a scimitar I have a 35% chance to produce a crit. That is only a difference of one extra crit every 10 hits. This is far less of an advantage to the scimitar than if you look at the weapon alone which would appear to crit 5% or 15% respectively. Here the scimitar has a distinct advantage as it will produce a crit 3x as often. However, assuming I can increase my threat range by +5 (another reason for this post as I am unsure if I fully understand what increases threat range) a scimitar now only crits 1.4x as often. And if I can indeed increase MY threat range by more than +5 the advantage gets even smaller.

And yeah I did overlook the x4 multiplier of the heavy pick, had I noticed that that would have been my first choice. However as I stated I am now leaning toward the Horc with a kopesh or a drarf with Axes.

To make it a little clearer, I want a good (not necessarily max but close to it) DPS that crits often enough to take advantage of weapon effects. While also giving my fingers a rest from all the clickies.

Again I am not good at crunching numbers which is why I have attempted to here. That way if I am doing it wrong I can be corrected now before I roll this toon.