Post DoooOMmm Day 1. Barbarians

[paraplegic]

Yea your a bit confused if you think barbs get better and rogues get nerfed for helpless.

Barbs use x3/x4 crit weapons, and deal a lot of glancing blow dmg.. Thats all getting nerfed.

Rogues and barbs who use hvy picks get equally nerfed vs helpless.
Rogues who use khopesh, overall, lose less dps then barbs who use two handers - especially non esos ones. (as glancing blows arent increased either)

Overall this is an awesome update for assasin rogues, and a bad one for barbs. If anything, i wish the changes effecting barbs wouldnt happen. Id give away my 1000+ crits to keep my stuns and trip working properly.

Assasin Rogues get:
+100 dmg on sneak attack vorpals vs 1000+ hp targets
Death to anything under that, even previously immune targets like epic/certain amraths/etc.
Assasinate working on nearly all trash, even epic.

Barbs get:
Nerfed stunning blow, (no glancing blow or offhand proc)
Nerfed trip (no glancing blow or offhand proc)
Sure supreme cleaves slightly improved, but still not very good and uses up a ton of hp. And horrible for certain common barb setups (halforc+greataxe)

all true.. but any class can vorp right? barbs can vorp? heck even mages can vorp, so the only thing rogues get is +100 damage on a 5% chance.

[Thrudh]

"Monsters that are helpless take 50% additional damage from all sources, including normal attacks, spells, or environmental effects (before damage reduction is applied). A critical hit on a helpless monster will deal 50% additional critical damage as expected."

Dude, right now, barbarians get 300% damage against helpless critters... auto-crit...

You also get 300% damage on your base damage, plus your sneak attack (no bonus).

After this change, barbarians get 50% damage against helpess critters

You also get 50% damage on your base damage, plus your sneak attack (no change).

You will still do more damage than the barbarian against helpless trash. You were doing less damage than barbarians (against helpless targets) BEFORE this change.

You've got it exactly backwards... This change makes rogues look even better.

[paraplegic]

just answer me this. AFTER update how much damage a barbarian will do vs a Rogue
LETS stop compare the after Vs the before, lets compare after vs after ..

MAYBE i wasnt writing well its hard to type your ideas, when you are not english speaker.

[Wraith_Sarevok]

just answer me this. AFTER update how much damage a barbarian will do vs a Rogue
LETS stop compare the after Vs the before, lets compare after vs after ..

MAYBE i wasnt writing well its hard to type your ideas, when you are not english speaker.

There's no way you can answer that without taking all weapon effects and gear into account, because weapon effects also get a +50% damage bonus when scoring a hit against a held mob.

I'm pretty sure barbarians trump rogues, since rogues rely so much on their sneak attack damage, which I hear doesn't get a bonus.

Barbarian critical hits get the +50% bonus on held mobs.

Barbarians have a much higher critical multiplier.

Barbarians deal higher base damage.

Therefore, barbarians will likely always deal more damage than rogues.

[paraplegic]

not always, a well suited rogue without agro vs a well suited barb, teh rogue will win hands down.


what i mean is this



1---> means PReupdate

2--->DOOOOooommMMMs day 1

as the chart says, (in autocrit situation) barbarians win, by a huge amount, but suffers the most penalty in the dooooms day, to be honest i was expectin that devs put end to this and let rogues do a nice damage.. i was in a mistake,

[Thrudh]

just answer me this. AFTER update how much damage a barbarian will do vs a Rogue
LETS stop compare the after Vs the before, lets compare after vs after ..

MAYBE i wasnt writing well its hard to type your ideas, when you are not english speaker.

Right now, barbarians do more damage against helpless (stunned, held) critters than a rogue... You should have rerolled to barbarian long before now.

After the change, rogues will probably do about the same against helpless critters as a barbarian, depending on gear...

Your DOOOOM post is competely backwards...

[Cam_Neely]

/snip

You must be a bit off, I mean look at the detailed chart in the prior post. DOOooooomMMoo!!!eleven!111!

Yes Barb will still do great dmg, and have more HP. Yes Rogues will still do great DMG, have evasion and a nasty reflex save, and be able to UMD heal scrolls. Each has its strength, and both are great sources of DPS. Feel free to pick one or the other, but screaming doom without understanding the changes is pointless.

[zebidos]

You must be a bit off, I mean look at the detailed chart in the prior post. DOOooooomMMoo!!!eleven!111!

Yes Barb will still do great dmg, and have more HP. Yes Rogues will still do great DMG, have evasion and a nasty reflex save, and be able to UMD heal scrolls. Each has its strength, and both are great sources of DPS. Feel free to pick one or the other, but screaming doom without understanding the changes is pointless.

A halfling 18 barbarian 2 rogue can do great damage, have evasion, reflex save and UMD heal scrolls (but not while raging of course)

[Chai]

You are all of course assuming that casters are going to play the ninny mass hold + haste bot role they used to play before this update when it was clearly the only best option. When in fact they may drop masses when a juicy opportunity arises but will most likely be dropping bombs the rest of the time. with mobs having half HP or so melee wont have enough time to be "uber DPS".

Who else stuns stuff for your rogue? Sure you can build a rogue to eventually have a viable stun, but if you do, you wont be complaining about not having enough damage in stun mode because you will have higher strength.

I do agree that rogues take a hit with this move. Everyone else does as well. Its an accross the board proxy nerf to everyone but casters who get a 50% boost from helpless state.

[Chai]

all true.. but any class can vorp right? barbs can vorp? heck even mages can vorp, so the only thing rogues get is +100 damage on a 5% chance.

Assassins vorp without making a damage sacrifice. Everyone else has to have a vorpal weapon. If the barbarian wants to vorp they need to have a vorpal of _______ weapon, where the assassin can still use their Holy + flame burst + flame blast khopesh, which will blind the mob, which = auto sneak attack + vorp on a 20 + crit confirm if the attack is a sneak attack, which it always is after the blind on SA mobs. All of that effect damage gets amped up 50% in helpless state.

My barbarian does great damage.

My rogue does alot more when he can stay in one place and gets full SA.

[Wraith_Sarevok]

You are all of course assuming that casters are going to play the ninny mass hold + haste bot role they used to play before this update when it was clearly the only best option. When in fact they may drop masses when a juicy opportunity arises but will most likely be dropping bombs the rest of the time. with mobs having half HP or so melee wont have enough time to be "uber DPS".

Who else stuns stuff for your rogue? Sure you can build a rogue to eventually have a viable stun, but if you do, you wont be complaining about not having enough damage in stun mode because you will have higher strength.

I do agree that rogues take a hit with this move. Everyone else does as well. Its an accross the board proxy nerf to everyone but casters who get a 50% boost from helpless state.

While that's true, casters are still casters.

They are still limited by shallow pools of mana (especially wizards), and can easily run out before they reach the next shrine, especially in long and hard quests like Sins of Attrition where the shrines are few and far apart.

They can't take on many of the game's bosses, mostly because a lot of damage spells can be saved against and many of the game's bosses are flooded with elemental resistances, high reflex and fortitude saves, and Evasion.

And only epic mobs have their HP cut in half, while their saves are boosted by 5-10 points again. This makes them somewhat tougher than the trash you fight in Amrath. This also doesn't change the fact that there are very tough trash in Amrath and Subterrane that even my monk has trouble soloing without a heal. How is your caster going to deal with the gobs of HP and saves that they have? There is no way they can continuously nuke long-term against rooms full of dozens of enemies without running out of mana.

Caster's roles haven't really changed, except for maybe the Sorcerer who can now nuke things effectively as a Savant. Their primary job is still to buff up the party with Extend Spell and disable rooms full of enemies. Melee's job is, has, and will always be to kill things and tank for the party.

[lord_of_rage]

Yea your a bit confused if you think barbs get better and rogues get nerfed for helpless.

Barbs use x3/x4 crit weapons, and deal a lot of glancing blow dmg.. Thats all getting nerfed.

Rogues and barbs who use hvy picks get equally nerfed vs helpless.
Rogues who use khopesh, overall, lose less dps then barbs who use two handers - especially non esos ones. (as glancing blows arent increased either)

Overall this is an awesome update for assasin rogues, and a bad one for barbs. If anything, i wish the changes effecting barbs wouldnt happen. Id give away my 1000+ crits to keep my stuns and trip working properly.

Assasin Rogues get:
+100 dmg on sneak attack vorpals vs 1000+ hp targets
Death to anything under that, even previously immune targets like epic/certain amraths/etc.
Assasinate working on nearly all trash, even epic.

Barbs get:
Nerfed stunning blow, (no glancing blow or offhand proc)
Nerfed trip (no glancing blow or offhand proc)
Sure supreme cleaves slightly improved, but still not very good and uses up a ton of hp. And horrible for certain common barb setups (halforc+greataxe)

Very well said.

[lord_of_rage]

all true.. but any class can vorp right? barbs can vorp? heck even mages can vorp, so the only thing rogues get is +100 damage on a 5% chance.

Assassin rogues get vorpal with any weapon type as long as it is a sneak attack. Now a great example is a boss fight. Harry/ sally/ horoth. The rogue pops haste boost 4 and and goes to work. He is getting the 100 untyped dmg on top of his/ her lit2/min2/ or rad2. For any other class they would need to use a vorpal weapon. That is a massive boost to assassin rogues who already do a ton of dps. The rogue wins here.