Ki gen, how are they addressing this issue?

[Lifespawn]

I just adjusted to your previous standard =)

Its not great, but it's certainly enough to begin doing epics with when you are fairly undergeared. After all, raven's sight, more strength, epic spectrals etc are all available to pus hit upwards by quite a bit from there.

pocket bard and your good huh?

[QuantumFX]

I think you should try actually building such a fighter first. Stunning fist is wisdom based and fighters are almost always purely strength based characters. They don't get many strong benefits from having a high wisdom score as a monk might. The fighter not only has lower ki moves he also has lower base damage and abysmal saving throws in reflex and will. Yes, they can spec out to have a high stunning fist DC but so what? Is that really going to make them a good build when they could have gone for kensei kopesh specialization instead and simply deal far better damage?

Stunning fist isn't even a monk ability, its an optional feat that anyone can take on their build. Trying to claim it is the exclusive domain of monks just doesn't make that much sense and claiming it is the primary reason for being a monk is also silly.

The only thing hurting stunning fist is the monster DCs have increased, and that affects every DC based power int he game, not just stunning fist.

Both classes are dependant on combat DCs. This particular feat is on both of their specialized feat lists. Claiming that one class should get a huge benefit with it and the other shouldn’t is just asinine.

[sigtrent]

Fighter tactics 4 and the kensai boosts are 6-7 dcs worth of bonus: even with 16-18 wisdom, such a fighter could have a 40 dc stunning fist.

Its exceptionally easy for these builds to have a mid-40s stunning fist. A base 14 wisdom is a very small investment. Add a tome and an item and you have a 22 wisdom: a +6 modifier. That's a 42 dc for a 12 fighter/8 monk build.

Fighters also have great DCs for trip and sunder, its what they do. You could make a half elf Monk 20 and run more wisdom and fighter dilly to make up most of the difference if its what you are after and still have all the monk benefits. Its about trade offs. Monk DCs simply aren't any lower than they were before, its just that fighter can do slightly better now. So what? Sorcs now can do more spell damage than wizards, that doesn't mean my wizard has been nerfed.

I can sort of understand if someone made a build and it was "maximum stunning fist build" and now a different build is "maximum stunning fist" but we have had that kind of thing since day 1. Maximum THF changed, maximum TWF changed, maximum bow damage shifts around, maximum spell DC moves etc etc... And even though someone else is slightly better, typically you haven't actually lost ground.

I have a monk with stunning fist and stunning blow. I never sweated the fact that fighters had a better stunning blow than I did. I made a monk to play a monk, not to play a fighter or to be the pinnacle user of a given feat. Trying to be the pinnacle of anything in a changing game is something of a fools errand unless you enjoy constantly reacting to the changes.

Warforged tactics is generic and doesn't require the presence of stunning blow to interact with stunning fist. Warforged variants of the above build could bring stunning fist to dc 50 if they wanted to. They're probably the only people besides Blitz builds who can reliably reach a dc 50 stun.

Dwarf is better because they don't take a wisdom hit. But the question is, why would you make such a character? The AP costs for tactics feats are very high and the wisdom you need for that DC is very expensive. It probably just isn't as good a character as a nicely balanced monk with a DC 10 points lower on that one feat.

The whole drive behind these epic changes is to make Stun&Beat less of a mandate and more of one of many strategic options.

[Tyrande]

there we agree on something but the devs balance around what the best of the best can do not many monks out there are able to out dps a decently geared barb and if the barb is epic geared forget about it no monk can do that much dps.

All this does is lower monk dps more.

May be the Devs intend is not for monks to out DPS a barbarian? May be DPS is not the monk's focus? May be the monks focus is more utility? Give out 25% SP savings, Walk of the Sun, Grasp of the Earth Dragon for stun immunity, surgically strike/scouting ahead for dangerous caster type monsters usually with lower fortitude and reflex saves than the front liners? Perhaps, that's what the purpose of spell resistance and the fast movement was about?

[sigtrent]

Both classes are dependant on combat DCs. This particular feat is on both of their specialized feat lists. Claiming that one class should get a huge benefit with it and the other shouldn’t is just asinine.

Specializing in tactics is simply a common fighter class feature in DDO. In D&D proper its mostly because they can use bonus feats for feats that enhance tactics moves. Here it is because they get enhancements for it.

You could make dwarven monks or WF monks to get their lines... does anyone actually do that? The 12 ap just isn't worth it for most folks. You could also go half elf for the fighter dilettante to get a taste of it. Perhaps they should just make Kensei the third Monk prestige enhancement and then you could get the same bonus. I think that would be the best solution to the issue. I'd rather see both classes be able to use the feat well than only one of them.

All they did was take away a prohibitive penalty to other classes using the feat. The benefits you seem to object to were always there in the fighter class.

[Junts]

pocket bard and your good huh?

I dunno about you but there's no shortage of bards in my epic groups.

I'm quite comfortable assuming its present most of the time. Nearly every class except the best fighters and barbs struggles without bard around, unless they're using epic swords of shadow and/or stacked up past life: fighters for dc/hit bonuses.

[QuantumFX]

Specializing in tactics is simply a common fighter class feature in DDO. In D&D proper its mostly because they can use bonus feats for feats that enhance tactics moves. Here it is because they get enhancements for it.

They specialize in *fighter* tactics not *monk* tactics. Please, feel free to finally explain to us how giving 2 classes a specific class feat and then only giving one class an enhancement chain for it is either fair or good for game play on the class that doesn’t get the enhancement chain option.

You could make dwarven monks or WF monks to get their lines... does anyone actually do that? The 12 ap just isn't worth it for most folks. You could also go half elf for the fighter dilettante to get a taste of it.

Yes. You’ll notice it’s built into every warforged, dwarf and half-elf stun focused build. Now, I need to ask: Why should a decent Stunning Fist DC be limited to 3 races in DDO. It’s a class feat not a racial feat.

Perhaps they should just make Kensei the third Monk prestige enhancement and then you could get the same bonus. I think that would be the best solution to the issue. I'd rather see both classes be able to use the feat well than only one of them.

Why? Kensai only accounts for +3 of the +7 bonus they can get just from class based enhancements. Give Monks some generic chains and add some benefits for specific PrE's.

All they did was take away a prohibitive penalty to other classes using the feat. The benefits you seem to object to were always there in the fighter class.

Actually, people have been complaining about the DC issue for a long time. It was just hidden by the fact that you could just spam an ability until the mob finally rolled a 1. Now that Turbine has mandated that ki is supposed to be a limited resource they need to go back and change how this works.

[Junts]

Fighters also have great DCs for trip and sunder, its what they do. You could make a half elf Monk 20 and run more wisdom and fighter dilly to make up most of the difference if its what you are after and still have all the monk benefits. Its about trade offs. Monk DCs simply aren't any lower than they were before, its just that fighter can do slightly better now. So what? Sorcs now can do more spell damage than wizards, that doesn't mean my wizard has been nerfed.

I can sort of understand if someone made a build and it was "maximum stunning fist build" and now a different build is "maximum stunning fist" but we have had that kind of thing since day 1. Maximum THF changed, maximum TWF changed, maximum bow damage shifts around, maximum spell DC moves etc etc... And even though someone else is slightly better, typically you haven't actually lost ground.

I have a monk with stunning fist and stunning blow. I never sweated the fact that fighters had a better stunning blow than I did. I made a monk to play a monk, not to play a fighter or to be the pinnacle user of a given feat. Trying to be the pinnacle of anything in a changing game is something of a fools errand unless you enjoy constantly reacting to the changes.



Dwarf is better because they don't take a wisdom hit. But the question is, why would you make such a character? The AP costs for tactics feats are very high and the wisdom you need for that DC is very expensive. It probably just isn't as good a character as a nicely balanced monk with a DC 10 points lower on that one feat.

The whole drive behind these epic changes is to make Stun&Beat less of a mandate and more of one of many strategic options.

Actually, I play just such a warforged monk and it's an extremely effective character. WF Power attack is an excellent compensation for a small wisdom loss, and considering the constitution requirements of earth4, the wis loss is paid for via the con bonus.

It was probably the best race in the game for monks before the two halfbreeds were introduced, and it remains a very high-quality character.

My wf monk has a comfortable 26 wisdom and manages, and i could easily move my levelups to wisdom and be a 42 strength, 32 wisdom build instead if i so desired, at the cost of stunning blow becoming irrelevant. That build would have a 41 dc on regular monk stuff, a 44 on stunning fist, and be one of the highest-dps monks available still.

[Tirisha]

Fighters also have great DCs for trip and sunder, its what they do. You could make a half elf Monk 20 and run more wisdom and fighter dilly to make up most of the difference if its what you are after and still have all the monk benefits. Its about trade offs. Monk DCs simply aren't any lower than they were before, its just that fighter can do slightly better now. So what? Sorcs now can do more spell damage than wizards, that doesn't mean my wizard has been nerfed.

you don't think Monks should be better at stunning fist than a fighter? You comparison simply is off base, this is like a Wizard doing more dps than a Sorc. Monks are supposed to be the king of stunning fist and as it stands in lammania they are not by a large margin.

[sigtrent]

They specialize in *fighter* tactics not *monk* tactics. Please, feel free to finally explain to us how giving 2 classes a specific class feat and then only giving one class an enhancement chain for it is either fair or good for game play on the class that doesn’t get the enhancement chain option.

Bards can take maximize as can wizards but only wizards can cheapen it with enhancements. There are many other cases where one class can take extra advantage of a feat or ability that multiple classes share.

As I said, I'm all in favor of finding a way to add to stunning fist for Monks in a similar way to how fighters work. This thread seems to full of folks who simply don't want another class to share in what they already have. No fighter in their right mind took stunning fist before update 9, the DC penalty far outweighed any benefit they could trow at it from enhancements. Fighters have to pay for that extra DC they are getting, are you eager to spend some of your current AP on stunning fist? Would you pay the 30 ap needed for a kensei 3 to get the full +7 dc that fighters have available to get that bonus on your current monk? Or how about just the 10 it takes to get the full stunning blow line for +4? You might but certainly you would be giving up something else to do it and so are they.

Yes. You’ll notice it’s built into every warforged, dwarf and half-elf stun focused build. Now, I need to ask: Why should a decent Stunning Fist DC be limited to 3 races in DDO. It’s a class feat not a racial feat.

Because those benefits span a range of feats and tactics that no feats are needed to take. Why do WF get power attack or Elves get Arcanum? Its just a matter of variety of choice.

Decent stunning fist DCs arn't limited to any race. Maximum stunning fist DCs are, but you don't need to achieve the best possible to be decent in DDO.

Why? Kensai only accounts for +3 of the +7 bonus they can get just from class based enhancements. Give Monks some generic chains and add some benefits for specific PrE's.

That seems like a decent enough suggestion.

Actually, people have been complaining about the DC issue for a long time. It was just hidden by the fact that you could just spam an ability until the mob finally rolled a 1. Now that Turbine has mandated that ki is supposed to be a limited resource they need to go back and change how this works.

I've not seen monks having any trouble stunning targets in quests I've played, nor does my own monk seem to have any great difficulty with it. I land it at least half the time I throw the thing. If it actually was that bad no one would be using it, yet every monk I see that is pure or mostly poor spams it as often as they can (or at least once per foe). If it was problematic that would not be the case.

[sigtrent]

you don't think Monks should be better at stunning fist than a fighter? You comparison simply is off base, this is like a Wizard doing more dps than a Sorc. Monks are supposed to be the king of stunning fist and as it stands in lammania they are not by a large margin.

No. Why should I? Where is it written that Monks are the kings of stunning fist? Is it in the rules somewhere, the feat description? It's not even a Monk class ability, its an optional feat that is not normally limited to any given class. The only reason its associated with monk is you have to be unarmed and monks are about the only class that gets an advantage for fighting unarmed.

Even these builds you claim are stealing your thunder have monk in them and fight unarmed and are using monk traits to some advantage, they are simply trading another classes abilities for other monk abilities. Should only pure rogues do traps and only pure bards sing songs?

All characters in DDO are simply collections of abilities derived from classes, races, items etc and each offers a limited selection. The game is making the choices that yield the benefit you hope to achieve. While each class should represent some unique characteristics, many of them also share common benefits. The insistence that monk and fighter should not both be able to use a feat seems to me just a reaction to the fact that currently pure or nearly pure monks are the only ones that can do anything meaningful with stunning fist because the feat is linked to a class, something no other feat can claim.

[sigtrent]

Actually, I play just such a warforged monk and it's an extremely effective character. WF Power attack is an excellent compensation for a small wisdom loss, and considering the constitution requirements of earth4, the wis loss is paid for via the con bonus.

No doubt.

I was highlighting the fact that there is more to Monk than just your stunning fist DC. As you point out, its often worth trading maximum DC for other benefits... such as power attack damage, or extra durability and DPS from earth stance. Maximizing stunning fist DC is only a small aspect of the overall quality of a monk build.

[Synthetic]

you don't think Monks should be better at stunning fist than a fighter? You comparison simply is off base, this is like a Wizard doing more dps than a Sorc. Monks are supposed to be the king of stunning fist and as it stands in lammania they are not by a large margin.

Sorcerers and wizards are the same until capstone/PRE which guides them towards DC or damage though you can still perform the other task.

Monks get a lot of other abilities that stun or disable. Many of them attack different types of saves a fighter/monk will always be facing fort saves with their stuns as the "pure monk" abilities add + monk level and not + class level to the DC.

Monks will still be the best single target disabling characters it will just be a matter of picking the correct disabling ability.

[Angelus_dead]

Where is it written that Monks are the kings of stunning fist? Is it in the rules somewhere, the feat description?

It's written on page 101 of the D&D 3.5 Player's Handbook. That is how the D&D Monk class is designed. The designers use "Stunning Fist" as a synonym for "monk power".

[Tirisha]

No. Why should I? Where is it written that Monks are the kings of stunning fist? Is it in the rules somewhere, the feat description? It's not even a Monk class ability, its an optional feat that is not normally limited to any given class. The only reason its associated with monk is you have to be unarmed and monks are about the only class that gets an advantage for fighting unarmed.

Even these builds you claim are stealing your thunder have monk in them and fight unarmed and are using monk traits to some advantage, they are simply trading another classes abilities for other monk abilities. Should only pure rogues do traps and only pure bards sing songs?

All characters in DDO are simply collections of abilities derived from classes, races, items etc and each offers a limited selection. The game is making the choices that yield the benefit you hope to achieve. While each class should represent some unique characteristics, many of them also share common benefits. The insistence that monk and fighter should not both be able to use a feat seems to me just a reaction to the fact that currently pure or nearly pure monks are the only ones that can do anything meaningful with stunning fist because the feat is linked to a class, something no other feat can claim.

It is written in the 3.5 players handbook. Most of this game is based upon 3.5 mechanics. I fail too see the logic in Monks not being the best at Stunning "Fist".

Traps are a poor reference since they are not combat based.

Bards should be the best at singing.

Fighters should be able too use stunning fist just not better than a pure lv 20 monk for the same reason monks shouldn't be better than rogues at SA

[sigtrent]

It's written on page 101 of the D&D 3.5 Player's Handbook. That is how the D&D Monk class is designed. The designers use "Stunning Fist" as a synonym for "monk power".

You will note that it is in no way limited to the monk class and is a feat that any character can take. You will also note it is a feat that fighters can specifically take as a bonus feat. You will also note it says (DC 10 +1/2 your character level + your wisdom modifier) just like the proposed change.

The only advantage monks get is they can use the power more often than a fighter can. They gain no DC bonus beyond the incidental fact they often have higher wisdom.

[sigtrent]

It is written in the 3.5 players handbook. Most of this game is based upon 3.5 mechanics. I fail too see the logic in Monks not being the best at Stunning "Fist".

Really? Where? I happen to be something of an expert in 3.5 game mechanics and in feats specifically as I spent 6 years as the editor of the netbook of feats. I assure you stunning fist is not exclusive to monks nor do monks gain any bonus to their DC when using it. It is rarely used by other classes and monks gain extra uses of it (indeed in ddo if you are a non monk you can't actually use it at all so thats not much different).

The change they are making is to be closer to its 3.5 implementation than it currently is in DDO.

Traps are a poor reference since they are not combat based.

So what? The comparison is the implementation of class rolls vs rolls based on ability access. 3.5 strongly moved away from class defining character rolls and towards class being a package of abilities that could be mixed and matched to create different hybrids. Feats themselves are a central part of that being primarily not class based and usable by any class. We are discussing a feat, not a class ability.

Bards should be the best at singing.

And indeed they are, but other classes still can get many of the benefits by multi classing. That is the essense of 3.0. If you want strict class defined roles you need to go to earlier editions of the game.

Fighters should be able too use stunning fist just not better than a pure lv 20 monk imo.

Fair enough, but the solution would be to give monks some additional options rather than to railroad a feat to be only viable for one class.

[Junts]

No doubt.

I was highlighting the fact that there is more to Monk than just your stunning fist DC. As you point out, its often worth trading maximum DC for other benefits... such as power attack damage, or extra durability and DPS from earth stance. Maximizing stunning fist DC is only a small aspect of the overall quality of a monk build.

Agreed, and having a 'useful' stunning fist doesn't require maxing it, and especially won't in the future even though the saves will be better.

We'll see. I may switch the the higher wisdom setup i outlined above if it turns out my dc 40-41s are no longer effective on casters. One better stun can beat two that don't work.

[Tirisha]

You will note that it is in no way limited to the monk class and is a feat that any character can take. You will also note it is a feat that fighters can specifically take as a bonus feat. You will also note it says (DC 10 +1/2 your character level + your wisdom modifier) just like the proposed change.

The only advantage monks get is they can use the power more often than a fighter can. They gain no DC bonus beyond the incidental fact they often have higher wisdom.

if you read the feat carefully you'll notice that 1 monks can use the feat much more than any other class and 2 it is much easier too get on a monk. as it stands a lv 1 monk can use stunning fist every time its off timer with little trouble.

[Tirisha]

Really? Where? I happen to be something of an expert in 3.5 game mechanics and in feats specifically as I spent 6 years as the editor of the netbook of feats. I assure you stunning fist is not exclusive to monks nor do monks gain any bonus to their DC when using it. It is rarely used by other classes and monks gain extra uses of it (indeed in ddo if you are a non monk you can't actually use it at all so thats not much different).

The change they are making is to be closer to its 3.5 implementation than it currently is in DDO.



So what? The comparison is the implementation of class rolls vs rolls based on ability access. 3.5 strongly moved away from class defining character rolls and towards class being a package of abilities that could be mixed and matched to create different hybrids. Feats themselves are a central part of that being primarily not class based and usable by any class. We are discussing a feat, not a class ability.



And indeed they are, but other classes still can get many of the benefits by multi classing. That is the essense of 3.0. If you want strict class defined roles you need to go to earlier editions of the game.



Fair enough, but the solution would be to give monks some additional options rather than to railroad a feat to be only viable for one class.

I agree that monks should not be able to obtain a higher stunning fist DC than a fighter but I do not agree that fighters can obtain a higher stunning fist. You appear to be assuming I think that stunning fist should be exclusive to the monk.

Stunning fist is not only a feat it's a class option for monks as designed in 3.5 mechanics. Kinda like TWF for a ranger. Other classes can take it but they have to spend build points to get a high dexterity score to get it.

I no way believe that stunning fist is the only thing that defines a monk. It clearly is their most powerful option in high end content atm though.

What I do believe is that the monk should be better (or at least as good) at using stunning fist than any other class for the obvious reason *it's stunning "fist"* the same reasoning behind the monks design in 3.5.

Finally I have stated and do believe that fighters should get a viable stunning fist as a feat option.