So, how bad is the firewall nerf, really...

[quijenoth]

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new update 9 calculations with PRE's and firewall nerf
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Here are the new factors to consider for firewall changes:
- +2 to caster level when casting fire spells (with fire savant) +1 to maximum caster level - bypass 5 points of fire resistance
- +2 additional caster level when casting fire spells (fire savant II) +1 additional maximum caster level added - bypass 10 points of fire resistance
-awaken elemental weakness: fire
benefit: you are able to curse an enemy, increasing fire damage they take by 15%. this effect can stack with itself up to 5 times (5sp, 20 second cooldown, 30 second duration)
so far, looks like a pretty nice addition to damage...let's look at fire savant II now and see what it adds to the table:
+2 additional caster level when casting fire spells (didn't see that coming) +1 additional maximum caster level added - bypass 15 points of fire resistance
heat death ability - fort save or take 2,000 points of fire damage due to boiling blood. 50SP, 60 second cooldown.
so with the new prestiges, a level 20 sorc can now use firewall as 2d6+23 instead of 2d6+20.

new math:
25-35 base damage range.
50% enhancement
50% empower
100% maximize
50% superior potency
20% sorc capstone

25 * (1 + 1(maximize) +0.5(empower)[2.5]) * (1+ 0.5(sorc enhancements)+ 0.5(superior potency) + 0.2(sorc capstone)[2.2]) = 137.5
35 * (1 + 1(maximize) +0.5(empower)[2.5]) * (1+ 0.5(sorc enhancements)+ 0.5(superior potency) + 0.2(sorc capstone)[2.2]) = 192.5

137.5 - 192.5
378.125 - 529.375 on crit. (2.75x)

edited some calcs...

Now lets look at how this affects a cursed target... This assumes the cursed damage increase is applied after all calculations

Cursed target 15% (Min/Max[Critical]) 158.125/221.375 [434.84375/608.78125] +20.625
Cursed target 30% +41.25
Cursed target 45% +61.875
Cursed target 60% +82.5
Cursed target 75% +103.125 maximum Critical = 926.40625

now lets look at heat death - assuming it works like arcane bolt/blast etc and is not affected by metamagics the formula would be 2000*2.2 = 4,400 damage (12,100 damage on a critical!) or 21,175 damage against a target with 75% curse.

[Zerkul]

Someone forgets that Firewall use for "real nukers" is already marginal Spell DPS, it's much like acid arrow melf use: you cast it just to increase the damage then leave the rest of DPS to real nuking spells. Firewall is not so strong as DEVs depict it, actually it doesn't need a nerf because most of the elite players when deal with epics, especially in farming, do not simply lay down a firewall and wait, they nuke! Firewall kiting is for noobs, or at least for those situation in which you cannot afford the simple nuking (low mana, long quest, no shrines, etc...). Leave firewall as it works now because "noob" caster players needs it to approach epic content and "feel" they contributing to DPS: firewall nerf would only discourage the average player from playing the endgame in my humble opinion, and if the objective DEVs aim to is to make the game more "easy" for the average player then the effect could be non-productive. Anway do as you please this is your game.

[PopeJual]

Actually they came back and said it was slowing things down to much that they didn't like it.

You know.... They can DA harry us, but we can't slow them at all in turn like we used to do. I think Freezing Rain still slows them down.

I still see Hobgoblins in flipped minivans on the Jersey Turnpike, so Freezing Rain isn't slowing them down as much as it should.

[yawumpus]

edited some calcs...

Now lets look at how this affects a cursed target... This assumes the cursed damage increase is applied after all calculations

Cursed target 15% (Min/Max[Critical]) 158.125/221.375 [434.84375/608.78125] +20.625
Cursed target 30% +41.25
Cursed target 45% +61.875
Cursed target 60% +82.5
Cursed target 75% +103.125 maximum Critical = 926.40625

now lets look at heat death - assuming it works like arcane bolt/blast etc and is not affected by metamagics the formula would be 2000*2.2 = 4,400 damage (12,100 damage on a critical!) or 21,175 damage against a target with 75% curse.

Check the duration and cooldown for those curses. There is no way to get anything past 15% for any significant length of time without a party full of fire-speced sorcerers. The only way [a single sorcerer will] get 30% for 10 seconds is to lay down a second firewall during the cooldown for the first curse, hit it with the second, and repeat (thus losing quite a bit of your 15% bonus.

[Requiro]

Check the duration and cooldown for those curses. There is no way to get anything past 15% for any significant length of time without a party full of fire-speced sorcerers. The only way [a single sorcerer will] get 30% for 10 seconds is to lay down a second firewall during the cooldown for the first curse, hit it with the second, and repeat (thus losing quite a bit of your 15% bonus.

Timer is rest with new stacking curse. You can get 75%, but this will take you 100 sec to do it. But with 3x fire Sorc - yea, you will easily get this 75%

[quijenoth]

Timer is rest with new stacking curse. You can get 75%, but this will take you 100 sec to do it. But with 3x fire Sorc - yea, you will easily get this 75%

yeah when i considered this the only real use for it i could come up with was agaisnt the general manager on epic - its a long old fight and if it remains that long the sorc would do well to stack up the curses to maximise the DPS of firewall and then burn him down with a maximum curse heat death.

[Taryana]

Aren't all nerfs just the way to slow us down, so the new content need not to be created in shorter intervals? Time is money. Lots. Oh, I miss Druid so much

[protokon]

I'm concerned to add the 50% because i don't know how reliable mass-hold will be. Besides, if you are going to add in the 50% extra damage for the update 9 numbers, it's only fair to add in the SP cost of mass hold since, after all, you need both to achieve that DPS.

[B0ltdrag0n]

That is true. I imagine that mass holds will be as reliable from an enchantment speced Archmage as they are now from a mid 35-37 Sorcerer now. He said the minion debuff would be reduced not removed. I am expecting saves to increase by 4-6 across the board.

[Artos_Fabril]

Someone forgets that Firewall use for "real nukers" is already marginal Spell DPS, it's much like acid arrow melf use: you cast it just to increase the damage then leave the rest of DPS to real nuking spells. Firewall is not so strong as DEVs depict it, actually it doesn't need a nerf because most of the elite players when deal with epics, especially in farming, do not simply lay down a firewall and wait, they nuke! Firewall kiting is for noobs, or at least for those situation in which you cannot afford the simple nuking (low mana, long quest, no shrines, etc...). Leave firewall as it works now because "noob" caster players needs it to approach epic content and "feel" they contributing to DPS: firewall nerf would only discourage the average player from playing the endgame in my humble opinion, and if the objective DEVs aim to is to make the game more "easy" for the average player then the effect could be non-productive. Anway do as you please this is your game.

The "average" player is discouraged from playing the end game currently by two main factors:

1) Mob HP and damage is so high that options for tackling epic content are limited.
2) Many current "end game" players discourage non-optimized characters from even attempting epic content.
A third factor, which will hopefully be addressed by a combination of the changes we're discussing here, and the new "challenge system" is that many player just don't consider epics fun. And when you're comparing them to the other content available at 20 -- farming Shroud, ToD, etc. or TRing to restart the grind, that's saying something!

Since epic mob HP is going to be cut by roughly half in U9, and everyone is going to have to relearn what the best strategies for epic content are, it will at least temporarily open epics to "average" players. And those players are more likely to give epics a try, at least to see if the new system makes them fun or not.

That is true. I imagine that mass holds will be as reliable from an enchantment speced Archmage as they are now from a mid 35-37 Sorcerer now. He said the minion debuff would be reduced not removed. I am expecting saves to increase by 4-6 across the board.

With saves increased by 4-6 across the board, and 5-10 points of save debuffs added to the mix, mass holds would be more likely to stick, not less.

[MrWizard]

You mean I wont be able to rely on one spell alone to get me through 90% of all content?

or that 99% of the content does not even need it either?...lol

[spyderwolf]

d everyone is going to have to relearn what the best strategies for epic content are, it will at least temporarily open epics to "average" players. And those players are more likely to give epics a try, at least to see if the new system makes them fun or not.

no it wont. its takes less than a day for strategies to be formulated and to see if they work. good players after just a run or two usually see what they need to do.

they people who complained before they were too hard or boring will continue to think they were too hard or boring. these changes dont really change anything. same content, same basic ways of dealing with them. cc and dps. nothing is really changing to make us radically alter our playstyles.

that being said. people will either leave or stay. i run alot of epics and primarily on my sorc , i look forward to adjusting. thats the fun part of an evolving mmo. changes and how you deal with them.

[zex95966]

I love the firewall nerf!

now we might see arcanes casting more than firewall, and haste. variety = good.

the only thing I didn't like was that they nerfed extend and enlarge as good feats for arcanes. ok, enlarge was never good, but extend was.

[Zerkul]

The "average" player is discouraged from playing the end game currently by two main factors:

1) Mob HP and damage is so high that options for tackling epic content are limited.
2) Many current "end game" players discourage non-optimized characters from even attempting epic content.
A third factor, which will hopefully be addressed by a combination of the changes we're discussing here, and the new "challenge system" is that many player just don't consider epics fun. And when you're comparing them to the other content available at 20 -- farming Shroud, ToD, etc. or TRing to restart the grind, that's saying something!

Since epic mob HP is going to be cut by roughly half in U9, and everyone is going to have to relearn what the best strategies for epic content are, it will at least temporarily open epics to "average" players. And those players are more likely to give epics a try, at least to see if the new system makes them fun or not.


With saves increased by 4-6 across the board, and 5-10 points of save debuffs added to the mix, mass holds would be more likely to stick, not less.

I have 3 things to say about what you wrote, you might not agree with me but that's my opinion:

• There's no need to pull Firewall out of D&D rules so much to address the WoF kiting problem. The Spellchange Cost coming with next update will already make firewall less attractive in a lot of situations. I think someone is forgetting that this is a D&D game afterall even if very distant from D&D ...
• [Sarcasm=On] You know you can evade Firewall and get reflex save by jumping into it since it's like a fireball, it's instant! [Sarcasm=Off]
• This is just a Commercial Update aimed to make Wizards reroll into Sorcerers and get more cash into turbine's pockets: mobs have less hp (oh my god), they get higher saves (screw up archmages, now i need to debuff before doing CC but i do not have sorcerer's mana!), nuking gets more consistent and more efficient (sure i need to become sorcerer now). World of Warcraft is even closer now...

I love the firewall nerf!

now we might see arcanes casting more than firewall, and haste. variety = good.

the only thing I didn't like was that they nerfed extend and enlarge as good feats for arcanes. ok, enlarge was never good, but extend was.

I'm sure you didn't play enough this game.

[Truga]

This would work real well if you could instantly toggle between the metas being on or off, but you can't. It takes standing still and time to switch one on.

So you need to either leave it on or off.

Leaving it on will kind of defeat the purpose of 6sp scorching ray, unless they change how the metas work as well.

Very much this. Currently metas are used primarily to increase the sp efficiency of spells. If this happens, both maximize and empower will _lower_ the efficiency of polar ray and the likes. Wait, what?

Extend can stay as it is. However to promote nuking, maximize and empower will have to be changed. I'd say something like +50% sp cost for maximize, and +25% sp cost for empower. This might even make direct nuking do something other than drain my sp pool for almost no real effect on the long run. Currently the only places I use direct nukes are boss fights, after which I am often left with half sp anyway after the fight, so this wouldn't change them much..

[Zerkul]

I'd say something like +50% sp cost for maximize, and +25% sp cost for empower.

This didn't work in the past that's why metas got changed to spellpoint add.

[rakhtal]

I think they could change cost of metas to something like min(base meta cost, base spell cost*x)
X would be set for each meta. For example for maximize it could be 2.
Then maximized burning hands would cost 12sp (min(25,4*2)+4). Still more then casting the spell twice (so you dont just leave maximize on and forget about it) but less then 29 (so you dont get 2x damage for 7x cost).
And for expensive spells maximize would cost the same as today