So, how bad is the firewall nerf, really...

[jortann]

nothing going on here... move along folks

[Lifespawn]

So we basically say "meh" to anything good that comes out of this and riot about anything bad that comes out of this. I understand being passionate about the game, but if players were equally passionate about the positive as they are about the negative, we would all look like a bunch a fanbois.

Other spells are being made useful. A caster can blast anywhere but epics and maybe amrath elite effectively as it stands now. After the changes take place, not only are we having to damage through half as many HP, but a mass hold or stun ensures that we are doing 150% damage to a mob that has 50% less HP than it did before. Sounds to me like all other damage spells got ramped up. Top that off with the fact that most of them cost less to cast after the changes take place.

...and thus we move away from the nascar strategy of firewalling, running fast, and turning left. First perching crit fishers, and now this!!! What ever will we do??

i want to see your caster blast amarath normal as it is now and not a 5 times tr with all the greensteel and epic loot they could want char.

What spells got better thats makes up for fw being useless?

remember there are levels other than epic and i didn't see them saying they were dropping mob hp everywhere just epics.


Mass hold in epics gives a 50% boost to damage is great but that all depends on if you can even land them after the saves are ramped up again.


I'm more mad about the fact that they coded all this stuff and are ready to throw it into testing without coming to the forums to discuss possible changes like they said they were going to.

[Requiro]

Are you suggesting we will actually have to use our brains and decide when to not user max/emp and get more damage per mana, and when to use them to get more damage per second?????

Say it isn't so!!!!11!1one!!eleventyone!!1!

Nooo..... My brain hurts... Aghhrr.... hrrr...... rr....

<unconscious>

[Requiro]

Again:

I took my numbers from this post....

old way ... 1 minute firewall = 25sp + 10sp = 35sp(Base + Extend)
new way... (2) 30 second firewalls = (2*35) = 70sp

then add maximize to the equation ....

old way ... 1 minute maximized firewall = 25sp+10sp+25sp = 60sp (Base + Extend + Maximize)
new way... (2) 30 second maximized firewalls = 2(35+25) = 120sp

Fixed for you

[jortann]

Are you suggesting we will actually have to use our brains and decide when to not user max/emp and get more damage per mana, and when to use them to get more damage per second?????

Say it isn't so!!!!11!1one!!eleventyone!!1!

This would work real well if you could instantly toggle between the metas being on or off, but you can't. It takes standing still and time to switch one on.

So you need to either leave it on or off.

Leaving it on will kind of defeat the purpose of 6sp scorching ray, unless they change how the metas work as well.

[jortann]

Again:

Fixed for you

thanks

[Xaxx]

ok i find it amazinly funny that people seem to be going oh dont worry firewall got nerfed but they're making the other spells better, they cost less sp or do more damage blah blah...

yes the base spell costs a few less sp but max and empower will still cost the same

this isnt doubleing our output, not even close.

Theres a reason that firewall is used as it is, and thats mainly because WE DO NOT HAVE NEAR ENOUGH SPELL POINTS EVEN WITH THIS CHANGE TO NUKE OUR WAY THROUGH ANYTHING. One target, ok yeah we can hammer it, a couple targets ok, we can hammer it, a big group..... ok we can hammer it... but its gonna come down to the fact that before fwall casters didnt do much because hp of mob vs sp of casters was way to high, firewall became used as it was for that specific reason.

They're hammering the main trick that made casters powerful, and they're not replacing it with upped damage of other spells, they're not giving us more mana, they're not even halfing the mana that's gonna be needed, we're getting a slight .... SLIGHT downturn in mana cost... so the spell that maxxed empowered before cost ya 75... ok it'll cost ya 62... does no more damage, and your now gonna be practically forced to single target nuke as the inflated reflex saves of... well... eveything.... will make firewall go from must have to meh, maybe i'll use it.

How many of you guys posting that its all good your so excited and we shouldnt worry about this nerf have join dates of july 09 or after... yeah thats right i mean the froobs, you guys dont remember pre firewall, y ou dont remember original firewall, you dont remember the fwall nerfs, all you guys saw was you came in, saw the sorcs and wizzys doin it, coppied it, see its changing, and dont realize the impact of it since you dont know why things became the way they were or how they were before hand. Sorry you dont know the evolution of the game and you think you can predict the next evolution of it when you havent seen it in the first place.


LEAVE FIREWALL ALONE PERIOD.

[Requiro]

you may be on to somehting....

old way ... 2 minute firewall = 2x (25sp+10sp) (for extend) = 70sp
new way... (4) 30 second firewalls = (4*35) = 140sp

then add maximize to the equation ....

old way ... 2 minute maximized firewall = 2x(25sp+25sp+10sp) (for extend)= 120sp
new way... (4) 30 second maximized firewalls = 4(35+25) = 240sp


Uggghhh... its worse than I thought...

Fixed again... that will be 3rd time

And of course you know that Wall of Fire has duration: 10 sec + 1 sec / caster level right?

So now 20 level Wizrd get 30 sec WoF and 60 sec Extended WoF - you know that right?

Also that 7 level Wizard right now get only 17 sec WoF duration right?

[protokon]

I don't read all but here you get mistake:



The formula is:

Damage = Base * Sum of Metas * Sum of Gear and Enhancments

So it suposed to be:

22 * (1 + 1(maximize) +0.5(empower)) * (1+ 0.4(sorc enhancements)+ 0.5(superior potency) + 0.2(sorc capstone)) = 115.5
32 * (1 + 1(maximize) +0.5(empower)) * (1+ 0.4(sorc enhancements)+ 0.5(superior potency) + 0.2(sorc capstone)) = 168

Thanks for clarifying, I really appreciate it! OP is updated with corrected formulas (I still may have made errors though). The numbers look much more realistic now.

EDIT: here's a few things that cut down on SP costs to consider when thinking about "cost per cast":

-efficient metamagic maximize II item (gloves of the glacier, epic ornamented dagger any tier) -4SP to maximize
-efficient metamagic maximize enhancements (6AP will net you -6SP cost)
-staff of the petitioner (10% discount on spell casting)

35SP + 15 empower + 15 maximize (let's include gloves + staff of petitioner and enhancements) + 10 quicken = 75 - or 68 wielding staff. about 59 if
you don't use quicken. if your on a sorc with 3,000 spell points, i don't think spending 60-70 SP on a single firewall is going to kill your SP pool...

the 30-second cap on the duration does sting though.

[nicro]

Fixed again... that will be 3rd time

And of course you know that Wall of Fire has duration: 10 sec + 1 sec / caster level right?

So now 20 level Wizrd get 30 sec WoF and 60 sec Extended WoF - you know that right?

Also that 7 level Wizard right now get only 17 sec WoF duration right?

Extend will not work with Wall of Fire come Update 9.

5. Wall of fire ( up to 35 SP – targets now get a reflex save for half when they first enter the effect, but no saves against the flames if they remain in the wall. Now only does an additional 2d6 against undead instead of double. Duration is now locked to 30 seconds regardless of level. Can no longer be extended)

[Requiro]

Thanks for clarifying, I really appreciate it! OP is updated with corrected formulas (I still may have made errors though). The numbers look much more realistic now.

You welcome

You can consider few thing after Update 9:

• Enhancements line can give you +50% damage instead of 40%
• Only the first flame of the WoF can be avoided by reflex save, rest are the same.
• The only --big-- difference in damage will be against undeads.
• Also the –-big-- difference will be to something what you not have in your math calculation: damage per SP (this is the reason why everyone like to use it)

I don't see any more math mistake in your calculation - but I could miss something

Extend will not work with Wall of Fire come Update 9.

Yes I know that. I was talking about WoF now. See the previous post.

(tip: "old way" is WoF now, "new way" is after U9 )

[jortann]

you are right... i was wrong

[protokon]

<snip>

• Also the –-big-- difference will be to something what you not have in your math calculation: damage per SP (this is the reason why everyone like to use it)

This is, of course, the most crucial part to consider regardless of how you feel of the changes -

realistically, other than red-named mobs how often do you need something to sit in a firewall for more than 30 seconds?

for those single mobs that are roasting (high-HP named mobs), we also have that fire curse that will give another 15% damage to incoming fire damage.

It really seems like sorcs will be just fine, but wizards + lowbies (including both arcane classes) will be shafted on the spam firewall to cap in 3 days.

[Requiro]

I fixed, this time.

Are you play the same game?

DDOWiki

Name: Wall of Fire
School: Evocation (Fire spells)
Level: Sor/Wiz 4
Components: V, S, M (Heart of a Hen)
Metamagic: Empower, Enlarge, Eschew Materials, Extend, Maximize, Quicken
Range: Medium (100 ft.+10 ft. per caster level)
Target: Foe, Positional, Breakable
Duration: 10 seconds+1 second per caster level

Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
Cooldown: 4 seconds

And if you don't trust me (or DDOWiki) - go to DDO, create Wizard, play for a while and you see who is right

[/LIST]
(...)
It really seems like sorcs will be just fine, but wizards + lowbies (including both arcane classes) will be shafted on the spam firewall to cap in 3 days.

Yes - I agree with you.

And more: For now lowbies Wizard get WoF on level 7 with 17 sec duration for 25 SP. If they want more duration they must pay for it - Extend Metas for 10 SP. And they get 34 sec duration for 35 SP. After U9 they get almost the same: 30 sec duration for 35 SP. The only difference will be in undead damage and first flame save.

Now WoF with level get double power: in damage and duration. After U9 it get more power only in damage.

That’s why for lowbies there will be almost no difference (except undeads).

The most "nerf" part will feel the high level casters. That’s why they whine: because they will lose their "easy button"

[jortann]

And if you don't trust me - go to DDO, create Wizard, play for a while and you see who is right

I may be wrong on this one... I had 1 minute duration in my head, but to tell you the truth I don't know where that came from....

[Requiro]

I may be wrong on this one... I had 1 minute duration in my head, but to tell you the truth I don't know where that came from....

No problem But I must said that after your 2nd post I go check it on my Wizard in game to be sure that I'm correct

[Mellkor]

This is what? the third? MAJOR nerf to firewall and magic in general. enough already.

I will wait and see on llama tho, for fianl judgement.

Definently do not want to see extend and other metas nerfed as much as it is already.

[ArchStriker]

Casters are nerfed as it is, don't take away their firewall lol.

[Artos_Fabril]

new math:
25-35 base damage range.
40% enhancement
50% empower
100% maximize
50% superior potency
20% sorc capstone

131.25 - 183.75
360.9375 - 505.3125 on crit.

You missed:
50% Held/Helpless -- what we don't know is where this additional damage is applied. After the final damage calc? directly to base damage before multipliers? Stacked in with metas or enhancements?

[Book_O_Dragons]

You missed:
50% Held/Helpless -- what we don't know is where this additional damage is applied. After the final damage calc? directly to base damage before multipliers? Stacked in with metas or enhancements?

Some of Eladrin's coments make me think it will be multiplied to the total damage.

(current damage)*1.5= new damage when stunned