Epic questing needs tweaking to say the least

[tinyelvis]

It is real tedious coming back to the current epic quest system, especially after running in the event this weekend and seeing how enjoyable the high end game can be, I really noticed a big problem rearing its head again.

Its not the fact that the quality of the typical melee toon is low and completely unprepared for epic play. Or that they need not only a cleric always babysitting them. As well as at least one arcane immobilizing everything for them just to have a shot at hitting foes, let alone completion.

Its not the fact that the quality of the typical healers willing to join a pickup group has degraded to a horrendous level. So much so that they are incapable of healing unless party members stay tightly packed. I have actually found it better to use a hireling healer for many epic cases.

Its not the pathetically low drop rate of items. Essentially adding negative reinforcement to the desire to epic quest.

All of the above points could be addressed and a big problem would still remain. That problem is the way epic shards, scrolls, and seals are awarded to players. Now I know you addressed scroll drops. However, this did not solve the one big problem. Since all of these items are at least account sharable, more and more people are opting to take any of the former items that lands in their chest reward or ingredient bag.

This problem is especially true with the more and more common inexperienced player who usually has no idea what the crafting item actually crafts. Since these items are all so incredibly rare and incredibly hard to find, fewer and fewer people are willing to pass these items to fellow party members.

Now, as more experienced players see this happening (keep in mind the experienced players usually do the lions share of the work in epic questing), fewer of them are willing to join pugs. Interest in epic questing drops off as does interest in the game since your friends are not always available to play and a pug run would be nice to fill the time. Addressing this problem, imo, is even more important than addressing the drop rate of epic crafting materials.

One solution is to bind items to characters. This is better than nothing, but in general a poor solution since everyone, my self included, would much rather have account bound crafting material over character bound (or not bound at all). Therefore, I suggest you consider implementing the following.

1. When a scroll drops, the same scroll drops for all in the party.
2. When a seal drops in a chest, the same seal drops for all in the party.
3. When a shard drops in a chest, the same shard drops for all in the party.

This system was the system used in the event for gem drops. It is one main reason so many parties could form quickly often without regard for player skill levels or looting habits. No complaints occurred or party selections based on loot drop envy or jealousy. Perhaps it is because of the event this weekend and seeing how smooth the high end game could run, but I do not have a lot of tolerance now for folks who grab items that their questing toon obviously will never need. Especially in quests where I do the lions share of the work. I know others are getting fed up with this now all too common behavior too (it was the main reason the old scroll drop system really irritated people.

I know what many of you will suggest. Stop running pugs. Well, if there is no indication that this system will be addressed, then perhaps that is the only solution.

[lugoman]

My fixes would be:

1) Stop with the mobs dropping fragments. Instead of a fragment just let them drop more scrolls. So the new scroll drop rate would be slightly increased.

2) Let shards be bought with epic raid tokens.

3) Let scrolls be bought with epic dungeon tokens.

[Impatiens]

My fixes would be:

1) Stop with the mobs dropping fragments. Instead of a fragment just let them drop more scrolls. So the new scroll drop rate would be slightly increased.

2) Let shards be bought with epic raid tokens.

3) Let scrolls be bought with epic dungeon tokens.

I think saving up tokens to purchase shards, seals, etc would be wonderful. They could still drop in the chests, of course, but if you are incredibly unlucky you know at least that you will eventually have enough runs to get the item. The random drop factor of epic items is really off-putting. It's part of why the birthday event was so great. You had pretty much complete control of the materials needed to get your items and didn't need to rely on randomness to be on your side.

[Shade]

My quick and dirty fix:

Epix becomes a toggle box, not a dificulty setting.

Normal/hard/elite come back into play for all epics as the real difficulty settings. The UI need not even change, as it used to work like this, tho if epic box was checked, you went in on an "extreme challenge mode" .. Epic would instead just be level scale of a dungeon to make it appropriate for lvl20s, and a loot upgrade, not more.

Epic normal = exactly what all the whiners have been asking for. Super easy. But super low drop rates and BTA stuff. Would become the defacto pug difficulty.

Epic Elite = Original epic difficulty, but harder. Full immunitie sin place, full hitpoints, massive damage being dealt, massive trap dmg, etc. Droprates slightly enhanced, but all epic ingredients are BTC. Scrolls drop to the ground, not to a party member (and are BTC on acquire with a warning if you click it). Hardcores would prefer this mode.

Exclusive loot cannot be made for a super small percentage of the player base. It causes far too much whning on the forums and the devs eventually listen.

But harder to get loot? Sure. Why not.

[Vellrad]

I like the idea for beign able to buy shards/seals/scrolls for epic tokens, but I would like to add that this should be limited only to shards/seals/scrolls which are dropping in quest you've finished on epic at least once, so there's nothing like farming easy epics like house P/house D and buying eSoS or eRoSS.

[Shade]

I like the idea for beign able to buy shards/seals/scrolls for epic tokens, but I would like to add that this should be limited only to shards/seals/scrolls which are dropping in quest you've finished on epic at least once, so there's nothing like farming easy epics like house P/house D and buying eSoS or eRoSS.

Yea could make a token system like that:

EG:
Recipe:
Epic sword of shadows + any 2 of:
Shard/Seal/Scrolls of SoS (could even be 2 of the same type)
+
30 dungeon tokens
=
Essence of the epic sword of shadow (plus your old sword is not effected). Swap that over to an alt, pop it in and craft and you get your full sword on your alt.

Tho a more expensive way to get stuff you havent got yet should be there too:

Say
Any 2 of Shard seal or scroll (cant be 2 of the same, requireing you to at least have to pack to have Seal or Shard) + 50 tokens =
Item
Basically sacrifice 50 tokens instead of having to hunt down taht final component, which could take an eternity if your unlucky.

[GeneFrenkle]

First off this weekends event was by no means an "epic" challenge. It was designed to appease the masses. Epic questing is intended to give power players something challenging to strive towards come endgame. Also along with the challenge of completing epic quests comes the challengeof Epic crafting. Again designed to appease the hardcore player not the masses.
I find nothing broken with Epic questing. If you find it too challenging and don't like the odds when it comes to epic pugging then why not skip it altogether and just focus on N thru E? Why dumb down this one small aspect of the game that provides a modest amount of challenge to the more extreme players just so the masses can continue thier snooze fest after having been carried along most of the way to 20? To me that's the real problem. The game has gotten so easy that even to most unknowlegable and in experienced players can get carried to 20. If they made that journey more difficult you would find better payers At the epic level of play.

[tinyelvis]

I certainly think being able to buy rare crafting items would be a step in the right direction. However, it does not address the problem of loot transfer while questing. This same issue would still exist and the same discontent and negative reinforcement toward pick up group play would still be present.

People get irritated. People badger people. People blacklist and ban players and whole guilds from questing with them over loot disposal. It just seems like it is a system that serves no good purpose, and certainly generates a lot of negative feedback. I do not see a justification for the current method of epic crafting item drops. Its like tossing a small bag of rice down into a mass of starving people.

[B0ltdrag0n]

I've run few epics, I am not an expert, but the reason pug quality is down might be because there are so few willing to teach...teach to those that want to learn, and will take the advice to heart. Heck do that a few times and you have new people, who are competent, who can run with you.

I do agree that perhaps there should be changes. The epics I have run with few exceptions do not seem hard...just tediously long for little chance at reward of any kind aside from some fragments...and perhaps a token.

[tinyelvis]

First off this weekends event was by no means an "epic" challenge. It was designed to appease the masses. Epic questing is intended to give power players something challenging to strive towards come endgame. Also along with the challenge of completing epic quests comes the challengeof Epic crafting. Again designed to appease the hardcore player not the masses.
I find nothing broken with Epic questing. If you find it too challenging and don't like the odds when it comes to epic pugging then why not skip it altogether and just focus on N thru E? Why dumb down this one small aspect of the game that provides a modest amount of challenge to the more extreme players just so the masses can continue thier snooze fest after having been carried along most of the way to 20? To me that's the real problem. The game has gotten so easy that even to most unknowlegable and in experienced players can get carried to 20. If they made that journey more difficult you would find better payers At the epic level of play.

How does making the drop rate fair dumb down the quest. Heck make the epic quest harder, they are less of a challenge than the event this weekend.


No one spoke of challenge. In fact, most epic questing is easier than this weekends high end event. Further, there are elite quests more challenging than many epic quests. If it was difficult, then the masses of poor toons (I think this includes you since you seem to think they are challenging) that currently play epic would not be able to do it. Name one really challenging epic quest?

1. Von 6 is a cake walk
2. Anything in house p is a joke.
3. Demon queen takes minutes to pull off

There are epic quest where you can easily solo for full effect.

1. Von 1
2. Von 2
3. Wiz King

You could not easily solo the event this weekend and gain 300 shards. It took longer than 5 minutes to complete with a party. It was more interesting than almost any other epic quest that i can think of.

[B0ltdrag0n]

Is your suggestion to make the quests slightly different than the non epic versions and if not challenge (per say) at least make them interesting while fixing a loot mechanic that only serves to cause friction and strife in the epic community between established epic/older toons and (insert group of choice (newer players/casual players/whatever here)?


If so I think it would be a step in the right direction. The trick is how to implement it. Law of unintended consequences and all.

[tinyelvis]

Changing the difficulty of epic quests is a topic for another thread.

Here, I was hoping on focusing on ways to improve the fairness of crafting item drops. I think the drop rates are poor and personally would like to see them increased (some interesting ideas have been put forward). However, I would be willing to accept even poorer drop rates if they fixed the way these items were handed out.

I personally dont find any epic questing difficult (it can sometimes be challenging to pull a short handed party thru). With the current AI, I don't see how you can design a difficult interesting quest. Many humans have brains and will easily find ways to exploit AI behavior, map geometry or both. Lots of other humans easily follow instructions. Mobs with blanket immunities and high hit points don't make things necessarily difficult but rather more time consuming and dull. Therefore, personally I think the emphasis should be on interesting in quest development.

[Impatiens]

First off this weekends event was by no means an "epic" challenge. It was designed to appease the masses. Epic questing is intended to give power players something challenging to strive towards come endgame. Also along with the challenge of completing epic quests comes the challenge of Epic crafting. Again designed to appease the hardcore player not the masses.
I find nothing broken with Epic questing. If you find it too challenging and don't like the odds when it comes to epic pugging then why not skip it altogether and just focus on N thru E? Why dumb down this one small aspect of the game that provides a modest amount of challenge to the more extreme players just so the masses can continue thier snooze fest after having been carried along most of the way to 20? To me that's the real problem. The game has gotten so easy that even to most unknowlegable and in experienced players can get carried to 20. If they made that journey more difficult you would find better payers At the epic level of play.

Grinding through epics 20, 40, 60, on up to 100 times just to get the items you need to make the item you want isn't a "challenge;" it's boring. If you want to make getting the good gear about actually having a challenge you need to make some interesting and challenging fight mechanic and a decent drop rate on the item if you are able to beat the fight. The current epic grind is not challenging. Making drop rates more reasonable or allowing people to purchase the components they need with tokens would not dumb down the process. The dungeons would still be as hard as they are now.

Allowing scrolls and seals to be purchased with tokens would be somewhat akin to getting the better end rewards on your 20th raid run. It's a guarantee that you will at least eventually get what you are going for without having to rely completely on RNG. If there is concern that people would run the easiest epic to get the tokens then they could change it so that each epic drops a specific type of token or at least each epic pack, so you could only buy scrolls and seals for Sands items with tokens that came from sands dungeons and so on.

[Sebastrd]

First off this weekends event was by no means an "epic" challenge. It was designed to appease the masses.

I see nothing wrong with this. It is, after all, the masses that pay the bills.

Epic questing is intended to give power players something challenging to strive towards come endgame.

Incorrect. Epic questing is intended to give players something to do after reaching level 20 other than roll a new character or quit.

Also along with the challenge of completing epic quests comes the challengeof Epic crafting. Again designed to appease the hardcore player not the masses.

It is designed to keep you playing as long as possible.

I find nothing broken with Epic questing. If you find it too challenging and don't like the odds when it comes to epic pugging then why not skip it altogether and just focus on N thru E? Why dumb down this one small aspect of the game that provides a modest amount of challenge to the more extreme players just so the masses can continue thier snooze fest after having been carried along most of the way to 20? To me that's the real problem. The game has gotten so easy that even to most unknowlegable and in experienced players can get carried to 20. If they made that journey more difficult you would find better payers At the epic level of play.

It's not a problem with the game, it's a problem with your expectations. A computer opponent will never be able to keep up with human opponents. We learn to understand and beat the system. Even as the system is tweaked and modified and turned upside down, we learn and adapt and beat the system again. Only a human opponent can provide a meaningful challenge, and you'll notice that DDO pays only lip service to PvP. You have to ask yourself why Turbine would want to keep making the game progressively harder to keep power gamers satisfied at the expense of the "Masses".

No aspect of DDO, epic included, is challenging to a seasoned veteran unless the player purposely puts them self at a disadvantage.

[Xeraphim]

There are epic quest where you can easily solo for full effect.

1. Von 1
2. Von 2
3. Wiz King

You could not easily solo the event this weekend and gain 300 shards. It took longer than 5 minutes to complete with a party. It was more interesting than almost any other epic quest that i can think of.

Wow, you make it sound so easy that I will immediately roll up a G.I.M.P. with 0% fort and under 200 HP to get my farming action on!

[lugoman]

I like the idea for beign able to buy shards/seals/scrolls for epic tokens, but I would like to add that this should be limited only to shards/seals/scrolls which are dropping in quest you've finished on epic at least once, so there's nothing like farming easy epics like house P/house D and buying eSoS or eRoSS.

That would be a problem, maybe in order to get a shard or scroll you would have to supply the seal. Seals arent all that hard to get.

[bendover]

Let's just add an easy button too.

[GeneFrenkle]

Changing the difficulty of epic quests is a topic for another thread.

Here, I was hoping on focusing on ways to improve the fairness of crafting item drops. I think the drop rates are poor and personally would like to see them increased (some interesting ideas have been put forward).

What do you mean by improving fairness? The drops are completely random how can you be more fair than that? Just because you see something you would like to have for your character, that doesn't entitle you to have it. Even if you run over and over again, it's a random chance. Some people will get stuff that is useful to them and others will not. That's the way the game works. If everyone got everything they wanted in this game it would get boring really quick. There are lots of people who would love to become famous musicians or athletes or movie stars, but life doesn't work that way. Some people work hard and get nothing, others just have dumb luck and stumble onto a fortune. Why not just accept the game for what it is and learn to live with the fact that you can't always have everything your heart desires.

[Four20]

While I could see some sort of crafting process for this. I think it would be easier to add epic completions to quests right? Then after 20 completions you get a randomly generated list of either shards, seals, or scrolls. Maybe give the player the ability to pick whether they want a list of shards seals or scrolls.

However, make the scrolls bind so they dont just go and sell them.

But like the OP says, I think items should be BTC from the chest anyways. Why should 1 toon be able to do everything but craft the item itself for an alternate toon.

[tinyelvis]

What do you mean by improving fairness? The drops are completely random how can you be more fair than that? Just because you see something you would like to have for your character, that doesn't entitle you to have it. Even if you run over and over again, it's a random chance. Some people will get stuff that is useful to them and others will not. That's the way the game works. If everyone got everything they wanted in this game it would get boring really quick. There are lots of people who would love to become famous musicians or athletes or movie stars, but life doesn't work that way. Some people work hard and get nothing, others just have dumb luck and stumble onto a fortune. Why not just accept the game for what it is and learn to live with the fact that you can't always have everything your heart desires.

First off, a fellow like you is probably not gonna understand this, but nothing involving software is completely random.

You seem to be just trolling for a fight or you are incapable of understanding the point of the topic. In the past scrolls used to drop on the ground. This was plenty fair. Everyone had the same chance to snatch it or leave it. However, what started to happen was folks got upset because either quicker people started snatching them or inexperienced people did. The incentive was to snatch a scroll and investigate it later. It was a poor distribution system, and it worked against pick up group play. There was no good reason for it.

Now, a similar thing is happening encouraging people to avoid inexperienced players and others. Since the crafting items are so rare, many will snatch them up even if they have little or no chance of ever using them. Some because they know no better, some because they are unsure whether they have it or may need it, and some because they are jerks. There is no good reason for this type of item drop. It impacts the game very negatively.

It does not take a genius to see that if someone gives away any crafting items they don't use to party members. While seeing that others keep all of their items. The former person is gonna end up with less. The negative incentive is for him to also not give away items.

A simple fix is to drop the same thing for everyone. You can modify the drop rates if necessary to maintain the same drop rates of items. However, the same crafting item should be made available to everyone as they were in the weekend event.

If something does not happen to address this issue. Here is what will happen more and more often. People will run more with friends and less PUGs. This means less questing available for the inexperienced player and also less questing available for those who don't have friends on. If you don't have anything to do while logged on, you are less likely to stay logged.