TWF Barb Viable?

[blackdoguk]

4. THE most important issue imo: In epic content when to-hit begins to matter and u dont wanna drop power attack. Twf -4 to hit plus PA -11 to hit (HOrc) do hurt the dps except for maybe the most ubber geared and buffed twf barbs. THF barb gets +2 (mighty rage and cap) and +4 fighting style and a possible +5 with ESoS.

Otherwise, say in non-epic raids and grouped quests, I believe twf barbs functions just as well, if not even slightly better than thf barbs.

Hmm. Does anybody have a capped and geared twf Horc that could comment on whether or not they struggle to hit here? In my current human form where my maxed out (situational) strength is 68 I still miss ever so slightly more than i would like against the really high AC epic targets - does the extra racial str. compensate for the higher minus on your to hit?

[Shade]

So correct me if i'm wrong - the thf line improves the damage and chance of glancing blows when fighting multiple targets, so vs a single target TWF (all feats taken) out performs all bar the eSOS and its improved crit muliplier?

Your wrong.

Glancing blows work on your main target, as well as those around you.

In a sense they are not very different from offhand procs.

They hit less often (by a wopping 5% , nothing to worry about).. But overall tend to still do more base damage then offhand procs, just lack the ability to crit, or carry a large amount of special effects (only 20% on a fully specd barb)

Since they are superior for high fort target, that makes THF the best DPS versus high target.

And since TWF lacks exceptionally strong crit weapons like the ESoS, that makes THF the best dps for low fort as well.

There's really no where TWF wins atm.

[Shade]

Also can be explained by Shade's computer on that particular day not being as zippy as Vanshilar's on that other particular day..

Doesn't make much sense.

I have a vastly superior machine to vanshilar. He tends to run a low end laptop and record at 10fps.

I run an extremely high end machine and can record at 60fps sometimes, other times not as well . Very inconsistant with DDOs current poor engine. Game ran better years ago on my crappier computer.

Eh I dunno. I'll build another machine soon and get XP going again for DDO, DDO seems to run much better on XP. Tho my current machines hardware seems to hate XP and cause frequent crash's, not sure whats causing it.

[Kinerd]

So correct me if i'm wrong - the thf line improves the damage and chance of glancing blows when fighting multiple targets, so vs a single target TWF (all feats taken) out performs all bar the eSOS and its improved crit muliplier?

As Shade says, glancing blows apply not only to multiple targets but to the single target as well. If you don't have any THF feats and have all the TWF feats, not even the eSoS will make THF superior. If you have all the THF feats and all the TWF feats the way to go is eSoS, then greensteel khopeshes, then greensteel whatever-THF (as a barbarian).

Somehow I don't understand why people favor twf KoTC over thf ones so much, but insist thf FB is by far superior than twf ones.

KoTC is only magical processes. FB has a magical process which has a unique 100% rate on glancing blows and additionally increases crit multiplier, which favors weapons with more base damage, which means THF. They're not super-comparable.

[BlackSteel]

KoTC is only magical processes. FB has a magical process which has a unique 100% rate on glancing blows and additionally increases crit multiplier, which favors weapons with more base damage, which means THF. They're not super-comparable.

pally one is 100% atm as well to my understanding. (BTW both KotC and frenzy are slated to be fixed to NOT be 100%, just as the PL will eventually b fixed)

the big difference between the two is that things like divine might and smites are more beneficial to TWF, whereas the higher str and power attack of barbarian actually favor THF.

[Nick_RC]

Personally I think 2wf barbs (either 18barb/2 ftr or 18 barb/1 ftr/1rog) are better dps at the moment than 2 handed. Thats my opinion and from what Ive seen in game and Im sure others will argue with me.

Definately no slouch and one of the best all round dpsers out there. My buddy Several runs a very mean 2wf 18 barb 2 ftr who gives me a run for my money most days and he doesnt have epic mari chain/red scale/litany altho has most everything else.

Shades DPS challenge (The portal one) Has the 2wf(Several) beating the 2HF

- 52 to 54 seconds on min 2 entry and
- The two 2HF entries 44 to 53 seconds.

Id say a 2HF halforc would smoke him with min 2 weapons but for portal appropriate weaponry it would be pretty close. And 100% fort unbreakable DR is better for a 2HF than a 2WF.

Oh and twin heavy picks will smoke ESOS on autocrit mobs when you get too epic. ESOS is a great Boss dmging weapon because of its excellent profile... but once you take out the huge crit range ur left with a great base dmg and x3. It loses alot of comparative power autocrit.

Some food for thought.

N

[Nick_RC]

TWF barbs are uber and much closer/ahead of 2HF than anyone would care to admit. Not having to twitch gives very consistent dps.

I suggest 18 barb / 2 rogue or 18 barb/2 fighter with khopesh. The splash gives haste boost and potentially umd (don't laugh -- it's great for buffing, rezzing, teleporting, d-dooring, etc!), open locks, and sneak attack damage. Not using khopesh will drop you quite a bit, but at least you with greensteels will still be above the non-epic barbarians.

If you can, getting a barbarian past life is highly recommended right now for the way it is currently functiong. So, to fit it in, I would do 18 barb / 2 fighter and use your two additional feats on past life: barbarian and stunning blow.

Example half-orc barbarian 18 / rogue 2: 2wf, i2wf, g2wf, improved critical: slashing, khopesh, power attack, and cleave
Example half-orc barbarian 18 / fighter 2: stunning blow, power attack, past life: barbarian, 2wf, i2wf, g2wf, improved critical: slashing, khopesh, and cleave


Just as a basic idea of what you'd be going for, here is an example. I'd be happy to give any more build breakdown if you care. And, since I see that you're on our server... you could always run us for a couple of epics if that would help =)

**** just saw this woulda saved me a post - yeah im in the same boat as you I am of the opinion they are typically doing slightly more dps from what I can gauge in game. I like the 18/2ftr or the 18/1/1. Once you get fully geared and twinked out consider dropping khop proficiency if ur too hit is solid enough... just dropped it on my Blittz and I still dont miss allowed me to take toughness AND pali PL not one or the other. Good times.

N

[Astars]

Personnally i run a 34 pt human 2wf pure barb (past life barb). The extra feat from human allows me to fit in the feats needed and the barb capstone is nice.
Current setup: dual-wield deathnip and min 2 heavy pick, litany and +10 icy burst warhammer in off-hand
Advantages:
- can fit in +8 seeker and litany (yes, you can do the same if you use the epic mari chain, but i still "only" miss the scroll)
- get stun bonus with off-hand wep and crit *4 with main hand
- run with *4 crit picks for epics

The disadvantages are listed above, so i won't bother repeating them.
Imo 2wf barbs are a bit more flexible (stun, crit, seeker) while thf are one-trick-ponies.
I hate swimming in a sea of thf horc barbs, and I hate fotm buidls
As to tanking quality: its superb-haven't geared him up with epic stuff, still he's really good.
Check out Asterian (Thelanis) if you want to see the build.

Cheers

Ast

[sweez]

I have a 18/1rog/1ftr TWF barb. No epic gear, no hate amp gear, dual Lit2s, double frenzied and haste boosted I rip aggro off THF barbs constantly. I haven't gone against some of the best THF barbs on the server, but I've gone against THF barbs that have plenty more epic gear than me.

Dual picks on held mobs absolutely destroy them, even with cheap stuff like Rocksplitters.

I will say this though - I sometimes have problems hitting non-held epic stuff with PA on, and I have a bit less HP than I'd like to (at least with the gear I have at the moment).

[blackdoguk]

I have a 18/1rog/1ftr TWF barb. No epic gear, no hate amp gear, dual Lit2s, double frenzied and haste boosted I rip aggro off THF barbs constantly. I haven't gone against some of the best THF barbs on the server, but I've gone against THF barbs that have plenty more epic gear than me.

Dual picks on held mobs absolutely destroy them, even with cheap stuff like Rocksplitters.

I will say this though - I sometimes have problems hitting non-held epic stuff with PA on, and I have a bit less HP than I'd like to (at least with the gear I have at the moment).

I have the same problem occasionally - for example the first Minotaur in tide turns. I've just finished a set of dragontouched with resistance, incite and improved destruction so hopefully this might pay dividends

[Khurse]

Thanks all.
I appreciate everyone who took the time to put in their opinion, one way or the other.
I'm going to try it, I assume the (few) TWF Barbs I've seen just aren't that greatly geared or played.
Hopefully I'll be able to make one that hold's agro.

Thanks again for the info.

[trashstack]

Anyways, here's what I've noticed when fighting with superior geared Esos Horc Barbs:

1) The Esos barb will always take initial aggro.
2) 30 seconds(time varies depending on crits) later I take aggro permanently.


I'm not sure if anyone mentioned it yet, but any straight damage bonus benefits TWF twice as much as THF. On the other side of the coin though, TWF suffers twice as much against DR.

On damage bonus and DR, TWF receive more influence but not really twice, since glancing blows proc 75% of the time, only 5% inferior to offhand attacks.

Imo the key factor in the portal challenge is the red word. On a barb a khopesh has a crit profile of 80%+10%x3+10%x6=170%. Even against 50% fort enemies its 90%+5%x3+5%x6=135%. Without chance to crit, thf will most likely dominate twf, unless twf has a weapon with effects good enough to make up for the lower base damage.

[Shade]

1) The Esos barb will always take initial aggro.
2) 30 seconds(time varies depending on crits) later I take aggro permanently.


I'm not sure if anyone mentioned it yet, but any straight damage bonus benefits TWF twice as much as THF. On the other side of the coin though, TWF suffers twice as much against DR.

Agro:
Easily explained by gaining sneak attack dmg, eventually overwealming the other player. If he had the same sneak attack, he might pull it back 30 seconds later. I've experienced the same vs other twf barbs with equal gear to mine if not better, with the only sneak dmg factor being tharnes googles causing it to pop back and forth.

"twice as much"
Probably not mentioned because it's not true.

Straight dmg bonuses do go to offhand 100%, which is a bit broken imo (thus the reasons Dwarf greataxe dmg was recently doubled, while 1hander dmg was not), but thats how they work.
But they aren't just 100% + nothing for THF.
They are 160% for a pure barb. (100% base +60% of the base goes into glancing blows)
Now glancing blows dont always go off (75% guarenteed rate, versus a 80% potentialy rate on TWF, which could be lower with poor luck, or high with good luck in short bursts)

If you consider someone attacking 2,3 or 4 targets at a time.. Dmg boosts in that situation actually benefit the THF barb more.

Thus why my uber halfling warchanters alawys know to give me there Heroes comapnion and not the TWF horc =)

[weewoo0]

Agro:
Easily explained by gaining sneak attack dmg, eventually overwealming the other player. If he had the same sneak attack, he might pull it back 30 seconds later. I've experienced the same vs other twf barbs with equal gear to mine if not better, with the only sneak dmg factor being tharnes googles causing it to pop back and forth.

"twice as much"
Probably not mentioned because it's not true.

Straight dmg bonuses do go to offhand 100%, which is a bit broken imo (thus the reasons Dwarf greataxe dmg was recently doubled, while 1hander dmg was not), but thats how they work. quick question: how is it broken? >> you're hitting them with 2 weapons and this magical property states that you do 2 or 2d6 or w/e more damage per swing. its 2 weapons therefore 2 swings. makes perfect sense to me heh.
But they aren't just 100% + nothing for THF.
They are 160% for a pure barb. (100% base +60% of the base goes into glancing blows) oh right this isn't entirely true. any twf who is geared will be using the ravagers set(+2d6 damage a swing against enemies that bleed) which is around 7 damage a swing) which is considered a magical proc meaning that its 120% on a thf vs the 180% on a twf. its not an apples to apples comparison the twf barb when geared will eat the thf barb alive on dps when auto-crit and when high DR is taken into account)
Now glancing blows dont always go off (75% guarenteed rate, versus a 80% potentialy rate on TWF, which could be lower with poor luck, or high with good luck in short bursts)*sigh* you seem like the kind of player who likes guaranteed damage and shiny numbers. well honestly? there'll be fights where my fighter's lit 2s proc 5 times in a row on crits and you'll never get aggro back. but there'll also be fights where you roll a 19 or a 20 10 times in a row and seem to just melt the boss' face. its how DDO works. there's always that element of luck hence we take the average when working out how someone's damage works. its not a perfect picture because there are always times when the results fall outside of the predicted area but there's no reason not to plan on the average because if the average isn't dependable are we really using a d20 system? or is it a dTurbine tells you what your damage is now its from 10-17 system? i prefer to think that their RNG isn't completely horrid and that averages do eventually begin to be seen

If you consider someone attacking 2,3 or 4 targets at a time.. Dmg boosts in that situation actually benefit the THF barb more.

Thus why my uber halfling warchanters alawys know to give me there Heroes comapnion and not the TWF horc =)

no matter how you look at it shade in places like elite tod or elite shroud or epic DA or anything with meaningful DR the twf will win because you can't use the eSoS. a GS khopesh in the hands of a barbarian destroys any non-eSoS thf weapon the second DR is involved.
for a newer barb? sure go twf just remember... you're really squishy even with that 750 hp... >> frenzy/death frenzy makes healers cry on barbs w/ under 600 hp... ESPECIALLY if they have haste boost -.-. <also. twf is ftw it has one of the best animations in game imo. though... they could get rid of that little spin...>

[Hanam]

Agro:
Easily explained by gaining sneak attack dmg, eventually overwealming the other player. If he had the same sneak attack, he might pull it back 30 seconds later. I've experienced the same vs other twf barbs with equal gear to mine if not better, with the only sneak dmg factor being tharnes googles causing it to pop back and forth.

I don't use tharnes if I'm looking to have aggro on a boss. I'll wear hp goggles.


"twice as much"
Probably not mentioned because it's not true blah blah blah blah.

Yes, it's not truly "twice", but close.



Thus why my uber halfling warchanters alawys know to give me there Heroes comapnion and not the TWF horc =)

That's because you're the only melee in your groups. Which I'm sure some people remember what I'm talking about.

herp derp

[Xithos]

no matter how you look at it shade in places like elite tod or elite shroud or epic DA or anything with meaningful DR the twf will win because you can't use the eSoS. a GS khopesh in the hands of a barbarian destroys any non-eSoS thf weapon the second DR is involved.
for a newer barb? sure go twf just remember... you're really squishy even with that 750 hp... >> frenzy/death frenzy makes healers cry on barbs w/ under 600 hp... ESPECIALLY if they have haste boost -.-. <also. twf is ftw it has one of the best animations in game imo. though... they could get rid of that little spin...>

Epic SoS can be slotted with a Devil's or Demon's ruin augment crystal from the end chest of Epic Devil Assault and will overcome DR appropriate to the crystal used. However, my TWF Heavypick Horc Barb is str8 win in epic content; almost everything is held and autocrit by archmages and the x4 crits along with marilith chain's seeker bonuses to both hands with all the frenzy damage on the offhand are ridiculous. Having a Bard around is the icing on the cake. If someone is newer to DDO they are better off going two-handed on a barb though; you will have potential issues with + to hit on the hardest stuff as well as inflicting more damage on yourself. Finally, outfitting a TWF is twice as expensive in terms of shroud larges.

[Malky]

Epic SoS can be slotted with a Devil's or Demon's ruin augment crystal from the end chest of Epic Devil Assault and will overcome DR appropriate to the crystal used.

Knowing how rare&expensive those crystals are (and they only last 100h) i wouldn't count on those for any comparison...

[Xithos]

Knowing how rare&expensive those crystals are (and they only last 100h) i wouldn't count on those for any comparison...

Last I checked they were tradeable and were not going for prices anywhere near something like a Gloves of the Claw scroll; powergamers go out of their way to have the best stuff and I know a fair number of folks with these setups. However, as my earlier post implies, whether or not this is relevant to the OP depends on how long he has been around and the amount of grinding he is willing to do or has done. TWF means grinding out enough larges for a couple of Min IIs as well as a couple of Lightning IIs if you want the best of what is available and that may or may not be feasible. Different strokes for different folks etc. etc.

[Kinerd]

Or one could be smart enough to look at my more exact apples to apples comparions of my characters, where TWF is significantly behind on the portal on character with exactly the same feats, enhancements, strength and weapons (they are in the more easily direct comparable min2 section).

Several is ahead for obvious reasons.. He's a maxxed out half orc using ideal weapons (anarchic burst gcb), and there are no half orc THF entries, yet. The only warforged any wep THF entries there have several issues:
They use non-ideal weapons for a 100% fort target, they don't have as good gear, they aren't TRs and they dont even haste.. Many obvious issues.

Do you believe that GTHF with a single anarchic burst gcb weapon will beat GTWF with two anarchic burst gcb weapons when they are in the hands of otherwise identical characters?

[Merlocke]

One thing about 2wf barb is you probably want to add 2 fighter levels. The capstone is 2 str which is good but not nearly as good as it is for 2hf, 2 fighter levels let you add 1 str enhancement, stunning blow, +1 dc stunning blow, and
khopesh.

Also I'm finding I can't build a twf without starting at 15 dex and expecting a +2 dex tome at level 7 so yeah.

What he said. but with past life barb in there somewhere.

On the other side of the coin though, TWF suffers twice as much against DR.

EDIT: that too