To the "Awesome" Guy Who Pulled Aggro in EChrono

[Faent]

Question: was your designated tank particularly gimp? I do have to wonder 'tis all... I realise VOD <> epic chrono but it always seems silly to me when an AC build is 'tanking' such that everyone else has to gimp themselves (eg use tharnes instead of epic claw) just to be careful not to draw aggro. Slows everything down.

Depending on party composition, you might want things slowed down. If you're not the leader, it's not your business to be making that call. Obviously in a group capable of setting a speed record, you just toss the highest DPS toon into the tanking slot. What you think is silly is often a result of someone (hopefully a good leader) having more information that you do concerning party composition.

[Faent]

I've got a question? I have a bard-barian that hits str 40 with buffs and uses a great axe. I seem to pull aggro like mad when I double strike... So my question is, should I not be doing this? I thought killing the boss as quickly as possible was the goal... Just wondering???

No, you should not always be doing this, and killing the boss as quickly as possible is NOT always the goal. What you should be doing depends upon the strategy the group adopts. You are welcome to contribute to that strategy by making (hopefully) helpful suggestions, but once a strategy has been adopted by the group, you follow it to the best of your ability. And this may well mean that you pay close attention to your hate-generation.

[Khellendros13]

Indeed. Lorz, can you give me a list so I can make sure every single name on it is in the game, creating characters as necessary?

Lorz was poking fun at the OP, as Rastelin is an abomination of Raistlin, an infamous Necromancer from Dragonlance.

Raistlin is to Wizards what Drizzt is to Rangers.

Either Ultimega is lying, or the main tank had little DPS. Or Ultimega is too uber for his own good.

I'm just gonna enjoy the show

[Azonalanthious]

Indeed. Lorz, can you give me a list so I can make sure every single name on it is in the game, creating characters as necessary?

This whole line made me mildly curious. So I did a google search on Azonalanthious and can proudly state that every result in the 7 pages (62 results) that were displayed (2000 odd others were not shown in the list due to being similar to existing results according to google and were not checked) is in fact related to me. Including someone who apparently translated a mod I wrote for Europa Universalis 3 into german for germanic speaking players and someone speaking in russian who apparently used a screenshot I took from the same game to explain something! Woot, I had no idea I had such international influence!

[Faent]

Actually, it 'could' be true because it depends on the subjective definition of good. If he defined a good "AC tank" as one who doesn't need people to sacrifice their DPS to hold aggro and all other AC tanks as bad, then that statement is true across all situations and party compositions. Just say.

If one defines "good" so as to make the statement trivial, then the statement is uninteresting and makes an utterly and wholly invaluable contribution to this conversation.

If we defined "good AC tank" to mean "never needs people to sacrifice their DPS to hold aggro in any situation", then it would also follow that there are no good AC hate-tanks. The OP seemed to imply that good AC hate-tanks existed, however.

Backatcha. =)

[Azonalanthious]

If one defines "good" so as to make the statement trivial, then the statement is uninteresting and makes an utterly and wholly invaluable contribution to this conversation.

If we defined "good AC tank" to mean "never needs people to sacrifice their DPS to hold aggro in any situation", then it would also follow that there are no good AC hate-tanks. The OP seemed to imply that good AC hate-tanks existed, however.

Backatcha. =)

Not really -- a "good AC tank" using that standard could for example be a player who solo'ed only. Actually, I even have a character that I specifically use when I'm in the mood to solo who would meet that definition. It could also be someone who played with a really fixed, crappy group of real life friends.

Tag, you're it.

[sephiroth1084]

This is unlikely. In some situations and certain party compositions, it will be true. It will be manifestly false across all situations and party compositions.

Such as? Nothing will be true in all situations. Not sure what your comment is supposed to imply or elicit in that light.

My meaning is that, once aggro is established, usually by giving the tank a head start, DPS characters shouldn't have to turn off PA or unequip gear in order to allow the AC threat tank to continue to hold aggro. Certainly this will not always be possible; as I mentioned, in my case, if I'm tanking elite ToD, I probably need some additional accommodations to make up for the fact that I am probably using CE instead of PA. My preference in that case is to simply have the DPS break off to take care of trash, rather than to have the heavy hitters turning off PA or whatever, partly because that strategy fulfills two needs in the raid.

[Emili]

All of this is true and I want to add something. It is possible to pull agro unintentionally if you aren't paying much attention. If the tank is chained (or slowed, or something else) that slows up his dps. A couple of successive lightning strikes, a couple of ill timed smites, or even a kensei boosted ftr who gets lucky with a successive string of crits can pull agro. I will back out of attacking for a couple secs if I get a bunch of crits. Also remember that some people are uber geared and others are more modestly geared.

This!

To be truthful we're not sure this is how Turbine really "INTENDS IT." Fact is your Average DPS may VARY by up to 50% from another player and Agro can be switched under right conditions. Yes, someone with 400 ave DPS in build can steel agro from someone dealing 600 ave DPS and it happens all the time.

Stainer and Pjstechie both know my fighter mainly runs around "Tharned" = both gogles + DT... unless I am intending on tanking. I do so for a huge reason.

I do not think many people know exactly how agro in DDO really works... and if you think you are probably incorrect as even the Dev's are at best sketchy in the result of all the mods/updates over time of what is included in threat/reduction/subtle mechanisms and not... "This is most likely the main reason

These are the quotes I could find, but Tolero said at some point that the discussion upcoming will have a lot of details.

Yes was his comments on Junts Nov thread on the defender PrE's being fixed and the difficulties testing such. Junts was looking for clarification on discoveries within the fix as the details there in release notes were inconcise if not vague.

The largest issue with much of the on-line game documentation is the ambiguous nature it is written. Concise, lucid or vivid seem to escape the vernacular of Turbine's official written presentations. View from the gamer's standpoint is however ... we are often confronted with a new change by the time we do figure out the workings of the last. Possibly Turbine wishes the user's decisions be more akin to chance I suppose rather than arrive upon a weighted informed judgement. - So what does Rogue Subtle Backstabbing cover? Turbine's answer: /roll 1d20

Yet I am sure however that Eladrin, if see such shall be kind enough to elaborate.

in my experiance it seems to cover all NON spell damage NON ranged damage delt by your character, lightning strike is what sticks out like a sore thumb to me in the past.

If so then something either about Lit II or the enhancement has changed...

It has not been definitively tested due to the only way to tell being which way an enemy turns. But we should have more info soon from Eladrin because they are working on revamping the whole intim/hate/threat system and he is supposedly going to explain how it works and how they want to change it.

Eladrin had not given any detail as to what ideas they had in this area... i.e. the changes to Hate which took place a while back, then the openning of intimidate to the Pally class etc...

I'd not expect these things to be tossed in a lump one and all update or mod... he stressed will be addressed over a period of time piece-meal.

Looks like I was wrong on that one (I was working from memory in that post). There's currently no minimum to threat reduction (so you could theoretically drop all the way to 0), but we'll likely adjust that and add a minimum threat multiplier in the pass I was talking about. The actual minimum value would be still to be determined.


Currently Intimidate just makes you the target for 6 seconds, it doesn't modify threat very much. (There's a tiny amount of threat attached to the action.) I'd actually rather it actually put you on the top of the threat table instead (since this allows for recovering after the death of the tank, and means that the monster will stick to you for longer than six seconds if it's not being stolen away by others).


Arraetrikos is one of those. Your intimidate should keep his melee attacks on you, but some of his spells don't use the threat list.

I'll open up a major threat discussion sometime soon (probably within the next week or two). I've hinted before at some possible threat changes (when we added intimidate to Paladins), that I want to get an active discussion going to talk about them, about intimidate and the other social skills, and active tanking.


They stack additively. 20% + 10% = 130% threat generation. Exactly identical effects don't stack with themselves in DDO. I'd have to check to see how all of the items are set up - I think that we've set most of them up as unique effects.

I think that we currently have it set so threat reducers can't bring you below 50%, but I'll have to check.


Theat is mostly permanent. If you cease to be (died, left the dungeon, teleported), you'll drop off the threat list entirely. Monsters that teleport also clear their threat list, as do monsters that leash. Some monsters also have unique behaviors, or ignore the threat list entirely.

Aggro transfers when a monster re-evaluates its targets and someone else is at the top of the list. Monsters don't instantly switch targets when someone passes the previous top aggro target, they tend to stick to someone for several seconds unless someone forces reevaluation.

Interesting reading so far.

Am I reading right that the consensus is that it covers all damage done via melee means except for special procs that are spell effects?

Another one to throw out there - does damage that's resisted still generate hate?

Oh? you really wish us to become speculative. I suppose I may state synopsis of my opinion on Eladrin's description of the code and data structure surrounding threat and reduction... seems clear to myself that actually damage delivered to the mob +threat/-reduction is the quantifier evaluated at the event of repopulating the “agro” structure. This in game I believe visible as a reflection of DR.

Eladrin actually described the structure in some detail and it appears the event reshuffling this structure is a timer event...

“Aggro transfers when a monster re-evaluates its targets and someone else is at the top of the list. Monsters don't instantly switch targets when someone passes the previous top aggro target, they tend to stick to someone for several seconds unless someone forces reevaluation.”

What is described here is they are collecting damages or ranking (quantified in some form) per Player incrementally be it a few seconds. He describes a simple mechanism – A "Timer event" which posts new values and reshuffles agro list in order. He also describes the intimidate skill being a by-pass and not placed within this queue but a check ahead deterent of six seconds... within this time frame the agro structure may be changing or suspended ... that we do not know. I know had I coded such would be nothing more than reindex of a linked list.

[NaturalHazard]

Lorz was poking fun at the OP, as Rastelin is an abomination of Raistlin, an infamous Necromancer from Dragonlance.

Raistlin is to Wizards what Drizzt is to Rangers.

Either Ultimega is lying, or the main tank had little DPS. Or Ultimega is too uber for his own good.

I'm just gonna enjoy the show

did he stay true to the charactor and dump con?

[Khellendros13]

Not really -- a "good AC tank" using that standard could for example be a player who solo'ed only. Actually, I even have a character that I specifically use when I'm in the mood to solo who would meet that definition. It could also be someone who played with a really fixed, crappy group of real life friends.

Tag, you're it.

I suggest you guys come and play with Cfer from Crimson Eagles. His toon Williace is one of the best AC hate tanks on the server from my experience. The only problem is he is Drow :P

Tag

[sephiroth1084]

I suggest you guys come and play with Cfer from Crimson Eagles. His toon Williace is one of the best AC hate tanks on the server from my experience. The only problem is he is Drow :P

Tag

The name doesn't sound familiar.

But I'd say, come play with Ferrumrym!

[Emili]

Agro list is nothing more than a list repopulated on a timer events... some threat/reduction is applied to those quantifiers ranking the party memeber position in the list (but not all damage numbers are modified by threat/reduction). The event timer ticks every period reshuffling the list but certain mob reflect a differing nature as to how they respond to the list shuffle (many flush the list).

In theory it seems to me the holes within the agro mechanisim is enough that given the right conditions, circumstance and enough trial you could eventually steel agro from a decked out Blitz build with an undergeared 6 str halfling tossing coal at the mob if the fight lasted long enough - the probabilty slim but the chance exists. The closer the DPS numbers get and the more likely such occurs ...

Only in prolonged fights however does this mechanic bear suit. Once agro is established it usually like to stay upon one - this could be the intial person spoted and not reflect damages at all due to how quick some mob die... Agro switching is not invoked by anyone doing more dps but it is whoever did the most damage between the "timer events" receives the new agro.

[Faent]

Not really -- a "good AC tank" using that standard could for example be a player who solo'ed only.

For a second I thought you had me, but then I remembered that I'd said: "never needs people to sacrifice their DPS to hold aggro in any situation". Here, "any situation" obviously includes party situations. =)

Tag. =)

[Faent]

My meaning is that, once aggro is established, usually by giving the tank a head start, DPS characters shouldn't have to turn off PA or unequip gear in order to allow the AC threat tank to continue to hold aggro.

I had no idea that this is what you meant. Giving the AC tank a head-start is a huge DPS sacrifice!

My preference in that case is to simply have the DPS break off to take care of trash, rather than to have the heavy hitters turning off PA or whatever, partly because that strategy fulfills two needs in the raid.

Having the heavy hitters turn off PA is equivalent to having them give you a longer head-start. Both are DPS sacrifices.

[Azonalanthious]

For a second I thought you had me, but then I remembered that I'd said: "never needs people to sacrifice their DPS to hold aggro in any situation". Here, "any situation" obviously includes party situations. =)

Tag. =)

doh. I admit I have no comeback to this at this point. But its also late here and my brain is slowing down. Maybe tomorrow.

[sephiroth1084]

I had no idea that this is what you meant. Giving the AC tank a head-start is a huge DPS sacrifice!

When is a tank not given a head start to generate aggro? Even a major DPSer is given some lead time.

Having the heavy hitters turn off PA is equivalent to having them give you a longer head-start. Both are DPS sacrifices.

They function differently, though.

Take VoD elite for example. If you have the DPSers turn off PA and such, instead of giving the tank a big lead time, there is basically zero possibility of your deciding that the group has so much DPS that you can ignore everything that spawns after Sulu comes down from his perch for the second half of the fight.

If, instead, you gave your tank a lead time, you may notice that this is possible.

Also, with a lead time, if someone creeps up on the tank's DPS, it's rather easy to make an adjustment that doesn't hamper group DPS too much, but if you have everyone with PA off, it's more difficult to assess if or when they can turn PA back on without risking a lot of aggro problems. What's more, there is no indication that people can turn their PA back on, meaning you may have lower DPS for the entire encounter.

[Hordo]

When is a tank not given a head start to generate aggro? Even a major DPSer is given some lead time.

They function differently, though.

Take VoD elite for example. If you have the DPSers turn off PA and such, instead of giving the tank a big lead time, there is basically zero possibility of your deciding that the group has so much DPS that you can ignore everything that spawns after Sulu comes down from his perch for the second half of the fight.

If, instead, you gave your tank a lead time, you may notice that this is possible.

Also, with a lead time, if someone creeps up on the tank's DPS, it's rather easy to make an adjustment that doesn't hamper group DPS too much, but if you have everyone with PA off, it's more difficult to assess if or when they can turn PA back on without risking a lot of aggro problems. What's more, there is no indication that people can turn their PA back on, meaning you may have lower DPS for the entire encounter.

Bah.

Stainer's greenis steals aggro every time...

[Lorz]

Lorz was poking fun at the OP, as Rastelin is an abomination of Raistlin, an infamous Necromancer from Dragonlance.

Raistlin is to Wizards what Drizzt is to Rangers.

Either Ultimega is lying, or the main tank had little DPS. Or Ultimega is too uber for his own good.

I'm just gonna enjoy the show

Exactly right on all points.

[ludoticces]

Ran a epic chrono the other night our main tank was killed by fire, omg quess what happened next, the boss attacked someone else. We just swicthed who our main tank was healed him, and completed the raid. Raid bosses switching aggro happens all the time. If you can't adapt and overcome you shouldn't be running epic, try casual. After reading the op's post and respnses, sounds like your tank was gimp and failed a intim check, Ulti is uber even if he is doing less than his max dps. He said several times he was not using any hate gear,why are you calling him a liar. Sounds like your healers were overwhelmed and couldn't handle the switch. Don't blame my guildie or call us out because you and your group lacks the skill needed to handle the raid.

[sephiroth1084]

Bah.

Stainer's greenis steals aggro every time...

Well...that's a bit different from aggro now, isn't it?