Do I have to reincarnate to be effective in epics?

[bogart99]

As above
I have a 32 point human sorc
feats are
Toughness
sf & gsf enchantment
max
empower
extend
spell pen & gtr spell pen

[WhiskeyWarrior]

Not necessarily, but the Heighten feat is a must have for good CC.

Out of the feats you have, I'd consider dropping Greater Spell Pen (if you have Spell Pen items/enough action points to take all Spell Pen enhancements) or Empower (unless you love nuking) for Heighten. Maybe toughness if you can get away with it :\.

[callforkills]

How are your stats, feats are fine but yeah - you need heighten and maximize would increase
your damage aswell I prefer to have both, but thats mostly up to the player.

[CaptainCameo]

I have a friend who had to lesser reincarnate to be effective in epics. The difference was astounding. The feats you have are good though. You can replace one or two things with others but you hit it pretty close to the mark.

[knockcocker]

If you want to CC in epics, reincarnate as a Wizard. Seriously...

[Rasczak]

Firstly what is your final buffed hp?

On a sorc for epics I would say that maximise, empower, heighten, extend, toughness are must haves. Your spell dc is not that worth it as you will be using firewall (no save) otto's irriessistible dance (no save only spell pen check), mass hold monster a lot. You need to be able to take a hit and you need to be able to do maximum damage quickly which is the prerogative of a sorc really


You don't need to TR to accomplish it, you do need to be geared up correctly.

[Hounder]

If you want to CC in epics, reincarnate as a Wizard. Seriously...

Kinda irrelevant to the thread.
Anyways you don't exactly have to. You can still get 40 sustainable enc dc on your first life but it'd be pretty gear intensive.
I.e.
44 charisma: 18 base+5 level+4 enhancements+ 3 exc+ 1 litany+ 7 item+ 2 tome+ 2 ship buff+ 2 yugo pot = 17 dc from charisma alone.
+2 from feats and +2 from item (dreamspitter etc)
Total = 17 from cha + 2 feats + 2 item + 9 spell level and + 10 base = your 40 dc
Like I said pretty intensive items but very possible to get the school of magic that matters the most in epics to a respectable level.
Of course if you tr into wiz and bard you can take their active past lives for 42 dc, 43 with + 4 cha tome.
Personally quest knowledge matters the most rather than super dc's. Both are important but what's the use of a 43 dc sorc that knows nothing about what to do at the right time
All in all you don't have to tr to be able to handle epics but it certainly would help

[knockcocker]

Kinda irrelevant to the thread.
Anyways you don't exactly have to. You can still get 40 sustainable enc dc on your first life but it'd be pretty gear intensive.
I.e.
44 charisma: 18 base+5 level+4 enhancements+ 3 exc+ 1 litany+ 7 item+ 2 tome+ 2 ship buff+ 2 yugo pot = 17 dc from charisma alone.
+2 from feats and +2 from item (dreamspitter etc)
Total = 17 from cha + 2 feats + 2 item + 9 spell level and + 10 base = your 40 dc
Like I said pretty intensive items but very possible to get the school of magic that matters the most in epics to a respectable level.

With that list, you might as well throw in a +4 tome

[BingoGazingo]

Kinda irrelevant to the thread.
Anyways you don't exactly have to. You can still get 40 sustainable enc dc on your first life but it'd be pretty gear intensive.
I.e.
44 charisma: 18 base+5 level+4 enhancements+ 3 exc+ 1 litany+ 7 item+ 2 tome+ 2 ship buff+ 2 yugo pot = 17 dc from charisma alone.
+2 from feats and +2 from item (dreamspitter etc)
Total = 17 from cha + 2 feats + 2 item + 9 spell level and + 10 base = your 40 dc
Like I said pretty intensive items but very possible to get the school of magic that matters the most in epics to a respectable level.
Of course if you tr into wiz and bard you can take their active past lives for 42 dc, 43 with + 4 cha tome.
Personally quest knowledge matters the most rather than super dc's. Both are important but what's the use of a 43 dc sorc that knows nothing about what to do at the right time
All in all you don't have to tr to be able to handle epics but it certainly would help

How do you get +4 enhancement?
I'm slowly maxing my charisma, but my gear is not fullt epic yet, have only epic Ellyd's Edge which gives + 7CHA. It would be better to get +7CHA ring, but i need epic materials - that will take ages...
Here's my breakdown:
18 base + 5 level + 3 enhancements + 7 item + 3 GS weapon + 2 tome + 2 shippy = 40 = +15 DC bonus

my dc for mass hold is 37 = 15 from CHA, +1 feat + 9 spell level + 10 base + 2 eardweller

thinking of dropping toughness in favor of greater spell focus enchantement, but my HP will be much much lower then (dont want to be that squishy)

Well, i think in easier epics (sentinels, von, red fens, carnival) 37 DC is enough, however it's too low to do a proper CC in epic chronoscope or devil assault or sands.

ps. it would be nice if phiarlan inspiration stacked with items

[Madryoch]

In my opinion no u don't need to have bard and wizard past lives to be effective in epic quests though they help .Now ...

Your feats are not ideal.But before that i d like u to consider what do u have in mind by EFFECTIVE

If u are expecting to deal awesome damage i advise u to reroll to physical dps char.Your problem is gonna be SP consumption since the mobs in epic quests have a lot of hp so u waste lots of sp per mob and there are plenty of emin dungeons.I understand nuking some boss IF u can handle any crowd control following that boss fight.

If u are expecting to be awesome crowd controller i can suggest some solutions for u but u need to understand it will take time and lots of effort ...

Heighten spell as forementioned is a MUST...

Spell Penetration is secondary ... Since all damage spells (firewall is the one u ll use the most in epic quests) and Mass Hold Monster ... ignore spell resistance .On the other hand enervation and energy drain and flesh to stone don't ...


Items that can help u with crowd control.

Eardweller. Yes that item helps ur spell penetration (minor spell pen IX) increases ur damage when using the charges by 100% of base damage ... and also adds +2 to enchantment dcs as passive bonus.

Cheap solution for higher dcs ... Craft a Greensteel weapon with +6 charisma (or whatever tier 1 bonus u like if u have + 6 charisma or better item inanother slot) +1 exceptional charisma bonus +2 exceptional charisma bonus ... that effectively adds 3 to 9 charisma in one slot ... thus increasing ur dcs by at least 4 if ur charisma score without something similar is even or +5 if ur charisma score is odd...

Get all charisma enhancements ofcourse.

Spell focus and Greater Spell Focus enchantment which i think u have in ur build already...

If we consider the fact that u have the forementioned conditions ur enchantment dc should be

10 + 9(from heighten) + 2 from Eardweller + 2 from greater spell focus enchantment + charisma modifier

Charisma Score Analyzed ...
18 starting
1 Human Adaptability
3 Sorc Charisma Enhancement
5 from points that u get to add till lvl 20
2 from charisma tome
9 from greensteel
=
38

translated in (38-10)/2 = 14 modifier

so ur unbuffed enchantment dc is gonna be
23+14 = 37 DC

which is not TOP but is acceptable for epic quests

Now consider using yugo potions or Deneith ones or cookies and if u have get some guild ship buffs as well


For every 2 points of charisma added u add +1 to ur dcs

A 38 that i used to have on my past life was enough for me to deal with a few epic encounters like solo farm scrolls in epic chronoscope in MOST cases.

Finally i ll mention a couple more items that should be items u are after and if u see them they will help with higher DCS and dealing with mobs...

- +7 charisma item instead of +6 ( epic helm of frost,epic ring of the silver concord, epic cloak of the silver concord)

- Litany of the dead gives 1 profane bonus to ur stats thus +1 to charisma but in order to do that u need another item with greater enchantment or better focus (other than Xachosian Eardweller since both are trinkets)like (dreamspitter,Epic Staff of Inner Sight and more)

-Dreamspitter or the new staff with lvl draining ability. The idea behind this is to useit on held mobs where all ur attacks are crits (or stoned).That way u ll get negative lvls on the enemies effectively reducing their ability to save against hold for example till u drain all their lvls and they die...

Finally i suggest other spels as well where spell resistance applies but they help a lot regardless of the fact ... Like the 1st lvl spell hypnotize which is spammable for us sorcs and irresistible dance...

Also have high UMD as well ... and GH as scrolls if not as normal spell so u can use heal scrolls since u are fleshie...

If u have all/most of the above and sitll think u are ineffective the reason must be that ur strategy used to deal with them is at fault. I believe tactics are easy to figure em out butif u stil can't try watching some video of people (wizards or sorcs) doing something similar to ur case and try to apply THEIR tactics to ur problem at hand.

Concluding while u might know of most of the things mentioned in my post these things will help u farm in epic quests without having to necessarily rely on past lives ... YET don't take me wrong ... the past lives do help almost as much as items.Don't expect this to be a process that takes 1 evening and u are done ... it takes forever to get to top dcs but at the very least u are human who's the only capable race to reach these heights for sorcs.

I hope I helped

[Hounder]

How do you get +4 enhancement?
I'm slowly maxing my charisma, but my gear is not fullt epic yet, have only epic Ellyd's Edge which gives + 7CHA. It would be better to get +7CHA ring, but i need epic materials - that will take ages...
Here's my breakdown:
18 base + 5 level + 3 enhancements + 7 item + 3 GS weapon + 2 tome + 2 shippy = 40 = +15 DC bonus

my dc for mass hold is 37 = 15 from CHA, +1 feat + 9 spell level + 10 base + 2 eardweller

thinking of dropping toughness in favor of greater spell focus enchantement, but my HP will be much much lower then (dont want to be that squishy)

Well, i think in easier epics (sentinels, von, red fens, carnival) 37 DC is enough, however it's too low to do a proper CC in epic chronoscope or devil assault or sands.

ps. it would be nice if phiarlan inspiration stacked with items

Madryoch has answered the question
Since the OP is a human he can take one more from human adaptability~

With that list, you might as well throw in a +4 tome

xD sigh, maybe I went alil crazy there

[Jaid314]

Firstly what is your final buffed hp?

On a sorc for epics I would say that maximise, empower, heighten, extend, toughness are must haves. Your spell dc is not that worth it as you will be using firewall (no save) otto's irriessistible dance (no save only spell pen check), mass hold monster a lot. You need to be able to take a hit and you need to be able to do maximum damage quickly which is the prerogative of a sorc really


You don't need to TR to accomplish it, you do need to be geared up correctly.

you don't need empower, just maximise will be fine. if what you want is a CC sorcerer (and based on your feats, it looks like that's what you want) then ditch empower for heighten.

max damage is *not* the prerogative of *any* caster right now. no, not even evocation archmages; they do sustainable damage, but it definitely isn't maxed out. perhaps elemental savant will change that, perhaps not.

and no, you won't have to TR. but you will need to grind a lot of gear if you want to do the harder epics.

[Madryoch]

you don't need empower, just maximise will be fine. if what you want is a CC sorcerer (and based on your feats, it looks like that's what you want) then ditch empower for heighten.

max damage is *not* the prerogative of *any* caster right now. no, not even evocation archmages; they do sustainable damage, but it definitely isn't maxed out. perhaps elemental savant will change that, perhaps not.

and no, you won't have to TR. but you will need to grind a lot of gear if you want to do the harder epics.

why ditch empower and not greater spell pen ? Do u really believe what u are saying ? how are u gonna try to keep aggro on u when u are with parties while people bash some bosses down ?

Firstly what is your final buffed hp?

On a sorc for epics I would say that maximise, empower, heighten, extend, toughness are must haves. Your spell dc is not that worth it as you will be using firewall (no save) otto's irriessistible dance (no save only spell pen check), mass hold monster a lot. You need to be able to take a hit and you need to be able to do maximum damage quickly which is the prerogative of a sorc really


You don't need to TR to accomplish it, you do need to be geared up correctly.

lol ? seriously ? Oh but u didn't tell us if mass hold which is the spell u ll use the most in epic quests allows a saving throw that guess what ... has to do with ur DC... Don't intentionally mislead people ...If u have no clue keep ur opinion to urself . Unless u know of ways to solo farm scrolls with irresistible dance and firewall alone ...

I won't pretend i know everything about the game but at least think before u type random stuff here...

Another thing ... My char's max unbuffed hp (not even raged) is 380 WITHOUT toughness or enhancements (since they require toughness) and WITHOUT greensteel hit points item ... I am human .Why do i have the impression that u have less WITH the feat ?
If u wanna check the truth of what i say check out myddo. U can find my name in the signature same as my server.Just remember to switch epic ring of silver concord with earth savant's ring with exceptional con +2 as incredible potential...

[Jaid314]

why ditch empower and not greater spell pen ? Do u really believe what u are saying ? how are u gonna try to keep aggro on u when u are with parties while people bash some bosses down ?

you wait an extra few seconds before the melee goes in, if needed. you weren't going to be out-dpsing the melees with wall of fire anyways, don't fool yourself. that's why they let the caster get a head start. your slightly lower damage simply means you need a slightly longer head start.

furthermore, if a regular wizard can hold aggro without a 75% clicky (easy to get), but with both empower and maximise, a capstoned sorcerer with only maximise, a clicky, and sorcerer capstone should be able to hold aggro just fine.

the math goes something like this:

wizard: <base> * (1.0 + (0.4 enhancements + 0.5 potency)) * (1 + (0.5 empower + 1.0 maximise) = 4.75 multiplier

sorcerer: <base> * (1.0 + (0.4 enhancements + 0.75 inferno)) * (1 + (1.0 maximise + 0.2 capstone) = 4.73 multiplier, assuming the capstone is added to the metamagic half of the formula as opposed to being a separate multiplier.

since nobody requires a wizard to have anything more than the full enhancement line + sup potency, this should be just fine (get an eardweller and you'll hold aggro even better). who knows, maybe you could even throw in the occasional extra nuke (meteor swarm tends to work on anything WoF works on, so you should be fine if you have that) if you're really serious about holding aggro.

and yes, i really do mean it. i've ditched empower. i've not really even noticed a difference. the number of times i am called upon to be the main damage to anything using spells in *any* content is insignificant to the number of times i am called upon to break spell resistance, let alone how frequently i am called on to crowd control in epics vs the amount of time i spend dpsing with spells in epics, where the ratio swings much more in favor of crowd control.

[Rasczak]

lol ? seriously ? Oh but u didn't tell us if mass hold which is the spell u ll use the most in epic quests allows a saving throw that guess what ... has to do with ur DC... Don't intentionally mislead people ...If u have no clue keep ur opinion to urself . Unless u know of ways to solo farm scrolls with irresistible dance and firewall alone ...

I won't pretend i know everything about the game but at least think before u type random stuff here...

I would suggest you do some research first before insulting people...you just defaulted yourself to the ignore on most people's list.

And yes, with ck/acid fog, dance and fw you can solo most epic quests so I would suggest you maybe sit in your corner and watch the big boys doing it before talking trash.

[Madryoch]

you wait an extra few seconds before the melee goes in, if needed. you weren't going to be out-dpsing the melees with wall of fire anyways, don't fool yourself. that's why they let the caster get a head start. your slightly lower damage simply means you need a slightly longer head start.

furthermore, if a regular wizard can hold aggro without a 75% clicky (easy to get), but with both empower and maximise, a capstoned sorcerer with only maximise, a clicky, and sorcerer capstone should be able to hold aggro just fine.

the math goes something like this:

wizard: <base> * (1.0 + (0.4 enhancements + 0.5 potency)) * (1 + (0.5 empower + 1.0 maximise) = 4.75 multiplier

sorcerer: <base> * (1.0 + (0.4 enhancements + 0.75 inferno)) * (1 + (1.0 maximise + 0.2 capstone) = 4.73 multiplier, assuming the capstone is added to the metamagic half of the formula as opposed to being a separate multiplier.

since nobody requires a wizard to have anything more than the full enhancement line + sup potency, this should be just fine (get an eardweller and you'll hold aggro even better). who knows, maybe you could even throw in the occasional extra nuke (meteor swarm tends to work on anything WoF works on, so you should be fine if you have that) if you're really serious about holding aggro.

and yes, i really do mean it. i've ditched empower. i've not really even noticed a difference. the number of times i am called upon to be the main damage to anything using spells in *any* content is insignificant to the number of times i am called upon to break spell resistance, let alone how frequently i am called on to crowd control in epics vs the amount of time i spend dpsing with spells in epics, where the ratio swings much more in favor of crowd control.

I never said u d be main dps ... on that i think i agreed on my first post . U have sp issues if u try to be main dps.Holding aggro now ... it all depends on ur teamates ... I have epic red dragonsacle greater might of abishai eardweller full fire/cold enhancement line and yet barbs get aggro off me sometimes while i do have both empower maximize and capstone . If people let u nuke for 2 minutes and then start attacking yeah i guess u can hold aggro ... but not all people are that patient . U have Spell penetration on the other hand which is not bad but mass hold monster ignores spell resistance ... so why compromise ur damage ?

[Madryoch]

I would suggest you do some research first before insulting people...you just defaulted yourself to the ignore on most people's list.

And yes, with ck/acid fog, dance and fw you can solo most epic quests so I would suggest you maybe sit in your corner and watch the big boys doing it before talking trash.

Is the question here if it's doable for 4-5... 10 if u prefer mobs ? or if it's efficient ? cause we both know that in 99% of the epic quests u can use either halt undead on mindless undead and FW (requires save on halt undead) or Mass hold/hypnotize and bash em with ur dreamspitter ... if u use 1-3 irresistible dances on mobs till they die and 1-2 firewalls at best u ll run out of sp in no time ... so maybe i do know my way around epic dungeons ... after all i farm em everyday with or without parties ... and my gear didn't drop from the sky ... i got it after trying very very hard and gaining experience... So saying that ur dc is not important sounds at best funny ... I

d also like u to tell me how are u gonna play against arcanist and seer in the first encounter of epic chronoscope when one blade barrier is enough to cut u to pieces before u even get close to dance the seer let alone the arcanist nuking at the same time ... and that with a bad DC on ur FTS for example ... and don't say energy drain ... they have death ward if they see u .

[Jaid314]

I never said u d be main dps ... on that i think i agreed on my first post . U have sp issues if u try to be main dps.Holding aggro now ... it all depends on ur teamates ... I have epic red dragonsacle greater might of abishai eardweller full fire/cold enhancement line and yet barbs get aggro off me sometimes while i do have both empower maximize and capstone . If people let u nuke for 2 minutes and then start attacking yeah i guess u can hold aggro ... but not all people are that patient . U have Spell penetration on the other hand which is not bad but mass hold monster ignores spell resistance ... so why compromise ur damage ?

ok, here's how i read this:

"What if a melee is too stupid to grasp the part of the strategy where you let the caster gain aggro before they start attacking", to which my answer is: everyone else backs off, lets the idiot die so he can stop screwing up, and then those who are capable of actually following the plan carry it out without that person. you may then consider raising the person who can't follow instructions once aggro has been gained. problem solved.

as far as it goes... ok. mass hold monster ignores spell resistance. true enough. otto's irresistible dance does not. hypnotism does not. otto's sphere of dancing does not. waves of exhaustion (a useful debuff spell) does not. crushing despair (another one of those nice debuff spells) does not. energy drain does not. enervate does not. ray of enfeeblement does not. flesh to stone does not.

i can think of *lots* of reasons to have spell pen feats. there are also a handful of spells which don't cover anywhere near the full spectrum of CC that don't need spell pen. if you wish to restrict your spell options further than your spell list already dictates, that is your prerogative. personally, i prefer to have the biggest possible selection i can get.

[soulaeon]

You can free two of those slots with a wizard past life.
Arcane Initiate and Past Life: Wizard do the same thing as Spell Focus and Spell Penetration. So you would have an empty slot for other things if you just took the active past life feat. Personally, I'd use the extra slot for Arcane Prodigy.
No need to TR to do epics, at least some of them. I was doing VON, Sentinels and Carnival just fine in the first life, with a DC of 33-34. A past life will effectively raise my DC +2, and add +2 Spell Penetration.
If you are still low level, I recommend getting the wizard lives out of the way first if you like sorcerers best, unless you want to play with the Arcane Prodigy feat while passing your wizard past life.

[Nich]

u can use either halt undead on mindless undead and FW (requires save on halt undead)

Nope there is no save on halt undead for mindless ones, just a fixed duration. That's why you can use scrolls instead of the spell in eWK for the arcane & the archers.

If u have no clue keep ur opinion to urself

You were saying?