Light Path Monk

[wax_on_wax_off]

So I'm just a couple of favour away from unlocking 32 point builds and I've been thinking of rolling up a monk.

I really enjoy the self-sufficiency that UMD brings and I see some synergy between shintao stun gaze (uses charisma for DC), shining star, UMD and intimidate (which Shintao gets some considerable bonuses).

For these reason I'm leaning towards either a 4 or 6 point investment into charisma.

However, this makes me confused over whether to be strength based or dex based. Either way, I think it is worthwhile to be have grandmaster air and earth for DPS strikes and air stance. The outcome of this is that I want 18 dex and con at level 20 after tomes so require 16 base. I haven't decided on a race, halfling is out because of the penalty to intimidate, human is the most attractive with healing amp with dwarf being an option as well.

Dex based
Str 12
Dex 16 (+3 level ups)
Con 14 (+2 level ups)
Int 8
Wis 14
Cha 14

Feats: 11: toughness, weapon finesse, power attack, TWF, ITWF, GTWF, IC:B, Stunning Fist, Cleave (for Shintao), Skill focus: Intimidate, Skill focus: UMD

Maybe bullheaded in UMD slot if I can get UMD up to 39.
Dwarf is an option to get higher stun DCs from racial, higher Dex from skipping level ups in con at the cost of 2 charisma. Possibly as dwarf strength based is more viable.

Perhaps the incoming Dwarven Defender PrE could add something to this idea?

[Jaid314]

well, here's the thing for the shintao stun gaze at least. let's suppose you go dwarf (for the sake of argument) and dump stat your charisma entirely, not a single point into it. that means you'll have, at level 20, a DC of 10 (base) + 20 (level) + 10 (+10 stunner handwraps) -2 (charisma) = 38. if you put racial tactics enhancements into the mix, that's 41. assuming you use a +2 tome, 42. assuming you use a +6 cha item somewhere, 44. i think that's high enough, and even a non-dwarf can get it to 42 with a dump-statted charisma.

[wax_on_wax_off]

well, here's the thing for the shintao stun gaze at least. let's suppose you go dwarf (for the sake of argument) and dump stat your charisma entirely, not a single point into it. that means you'll have, at level 20, a DC of 10 (base) + 20 (level) + 10 (+10 stunner handwraps) -2 (charisma) = 38. if you put racial tactics enhancements into the mix, that's 41. assuming you use a +2 tome, 42. assuming you use a +6 cha item somewhere, 44. i think that's high enough, and even a non-dwarf can get it to 42 with a dump-statted charisma.

Sure, UMD and Intimidate are perhaps what would benefit from the Charisma the most. Shining Star and Stun Gaze too. For Epics I doubt that the DC you mention above is going to create a 95% success rate, or am I wrong about that?

[wax_on_wax_off]

Trying to decide between Human and Dwarf
Dwarf
+2 Con (don't have to put level ups here to qualify for grandmaster)
-2 Cha (-1 to UMD, Intimidate, Shining Star DC, Shintao Gaze DC)
have to invest 2 into Int to get concentration, balance, UMD and intimidate
combat tactics (+2 DC to moves)
possibility of Dwarven Defender PrE in next update

Human
Human adaptability (+cha/wis for dcs)
Healing amp
skill boost (+UMD)
extra feat (dragonmark of sentinel= +3 intimidate)
can start with 8 int
have to split level ups between dex and con to qualify for grandmaster in each

I think I'll go the Dwarf route with 12, 15, 16, 10, 14, 12 starting stats. Though I do really like the healing amp synergy ... humm.

[wax_on_wax_off]

So I've rolled this toon up.
Str 11 (+2 tome), Dex 15 (+level ups), Con 16, Int 11 (+1 tome at level 4, +2 tome for CE and Shintao), Wis 14, Cha 12 starting stats

Skills:
Concentration, Tumble (1), UMD, Intimidate, left overs in balance and jump.

Feats (10):
TWF, ITWF, GTWF, Skill Focus: Intimidate, Bullheaded, Weapon Finesse, Stunning Fist, Power Attack, Combat Expertise, IC:B (or skill focus: UMD)

No toughness
From my understanding there won't be enough APs to take many or any toughness enhancements anyway.

Edit: listed Power Attack twice fixed
Edit: Sahtep noted that i didn't note +2 str tome

[wax_on_wax_off]

So I've rolled this toon up.
Str 11, Dex 15 (+level ups), Con 16, Int 11 (+1 tome at level 4, +2 tome for CE and Shintao), Wis 14, Cha 12 starting stats

Skills:
Concentration, Tumble (1), UMD, Intimidate, left overs in balance and jump.

Feats (10):
TWF, ITWF, GTWF, Skill Focus: Intimidate, Bullheaded, Weapon Finesse, Stunning Fist, Power Attack, Combat Expertise, IC:B (or skill focus: UMD)

No toughness
From my understanding there won't be enough APs to take many or any toughness enhancements anyway.

Edit: listed Power Attack twice fixed

I'm not sure if these feats will work if I want IC:B
1 Skill focus: Intimidate
1 TWF
2 Weapon Finesse
3 Bullheaded
6 Skill focus: UMD
6 Stunning Fist
9 ITWF
12 CE
15 GTWF
18 PA

Nothing to go in the other level 6 slot as I can't qualify for CE or PA until level 7. ****.
If I use stat tomes at level 7 can I respec a feat taken before level 7 into either CE or PA?
Options to increase strength or intelligence to 12 to qualify for PA or CE with a +1 tome to take them at 6.

I've weighed up the advantages of strength vs dexterity based. I'm not sure which is better. For Wind Stance, DPS strikes, AC, HP and DR I've opted to go for grandmaster of thunder and grandmaster of mountains. Additionally, I don't like the 1 DC penalty that Fire Stance gives to my moves. Any opinions on this would be welcome.

[Sahtep]

You need str 13 to take power attack.
Hmmm... int 8? Really? I'm thinking about jump, tumble, balance...

<EDIT>Okay, scratch that. I see that you took tomes into account. Didn't find it meantioned behind str above...</EDIT>

Sahtep

[wax_on_wax_off]

well, here's the thing for the shintao stun gaze at least. let's suppose you go dwarf (for the sake of argument) and dump stat your charisma entirely, not a single point into it. that means you'll have, at level 20, a DC of 10 (base) + 20 (level) + 10 (+10 stunner handwraps) -2 (charisma) = 38. if you put racial tactics enhancements into the mix, that's 41. assuming you use a +2 tome, 42. assuming you use a +6 cha item somewhere, 44. i think that's high enough, and even a non-dwarf can get it to 42 with a dump-statted charisma.

Just to confirm this, does anyone know how high your DC needs to be in epics to get 95% success rate? Can anyone confirm that +10 stunner handwraps do in fact affect Kukan-Do?

[wax_on_wax_off]

You need str 13 to take power attack.
Hmmm... int 8? Really? I'm thinking about jump, tumble, balance...

<EDIT>Okay, scratch that. I see that you took tomes into account. Didn't find it meantioned behind str above...</EDIT>

Sahtep

I fixed strength tome. The only skill that really matters is balance and 1 rank in tumble. Of course UMD, Intimidate and Concentration need to be max. However, choosing a feat out of the Shintao prereq sets suggest that maybe CE is worthwhile so may put up int for that.

[TeacherSyn]

I see a little problem here. I'll put in my two-copper opinion.

UMD on a monk, in my opinion, severely compromises the build, especially in 32 point.

I could see your ideas working on perhaps a dark monk (which cannot heal himself and, therefore, would find UMD heal wands and buffs ideal). On a light monk, however, the ability to use ki to heal oneself and others, buff and raise dead means that dumping any points into CHA until very late in your build is a bad idea. Monks gain nothing to CHA except UMD and the later level 18-20 abilities noted earlier.

By taking precious stat points from WIS or DEX or CON (AC, saves, evasion, to-hit with Weapon Finesse and TWF, HP), I suspect you'd be using that UMD well...for you'd be healing and buffing so much more because you are taking more damage overall.

The UMD charges in scrolls and wands are expensive, finite and will delay an inevitable death. But ki regenerates with fighting.

Unlike spell casters (which the monk is not), a well-played light monk can sustain himself off his enemies, not UMD gear. A dark monk can channel his ki into destroying his enemies even faster than a light monk, before they have a chance to damage him severely enough to use UMD gear.

Your ability to deal damage (the ultimate purpose to having a monk) is also compromised with so low WIS and nearly worthless CHA.

Because monks can be a bit light on HP, toughness (and enhancements to it) are essential. Survivability is greatly less without them. Intimidate on such a build is suicide--you'd have a lot less to protect yourself against the aggro should it's use succeeds. It's also wasting a feat--as is using Bullheaded. Anything that doesn't build AC, HP and saves on a monk is going to get challenging.

Use the DDO character builder to test that out, for I'd hate to see that build in action.

[wax_on_wax_off]

I see a little problem here. I'll put in my two-copper opinion.

UMD on a monk, in my opinion, severely compromises the build, especially in 32 point.

I could see your ideas working on perhaps a dark monk (which cannot heal himself and, therefore, would find UMD heal wands and buffs ideal). On a light monk, however, the ability to use ki to heal oneself and others, buff and raise dead means that dumping any points into CHA until very late in your build is a bad idea. Monks gain nothing to CHA except UMD and the later level 18-20 abilities noted earlier.

By taking precious stat points from WIS or DEX or CON (AC, saves, evasion, to-hit with Weapon Finesse and TWF, HP), I suspect you'd be using that UMD well...for you'd be healing and buffing so much more because you are taking more damage overall.

The UMD charges in scrolls and wands are expensive, finite and will delay an inevitable death. But ki regenerates with fighting.

Unlike spell casters (which the monk is not), a well-played light monk can sustain himself off his enemies, not UMD gear. A dark monk can channel his ki into destroying his enemies even faster than a light monk, before they have a chance to damage him severely enough to use UMD gear.

Your ability to deal damage (the ultimate purpose to having a monk) is also compromised with so low WIS and nearly worthless CHA.

Because monks can be a bit light on HP, toughness (and enhancements to it) are essential. Survivability is greatly less without them. Intimidate on such a build is suicide--you'd have a lot less to protect yourself against the aggro should it's use succeeds. It's also wasting a feat--as is using Bullheaded. Anything that doesn't build AC, HP and saves on a monk is going to get challenging.

Use the DDO character builder to test that out, for I'd hate to see that build in action.

There are many things besides healing yourself that UMD can bring to a build. Monks don't have enough AP to spec into raise dead at end game, it is a waste of AP when it can easily be done with a raise dead scroll. Invisibility, fireshields, stoneskin, displacement. All things that light monks don't have. Sure, the dark monk has some of these things but I'm not interested in playing a dark monk (I have one, he bores me).

What I am interested in is a Light Monk who can tank effectively and is self-sufficient. Invisibility alone is a good reason, imo, to invest in UMD as multiple clickies take up too much inventory space and won't necessary be enough anyway (solo wiz king, for example).

I take your points, toughness is needed barring gear/past lives that I don't have. I take your point about 14 base wisdom being low. I think my intention will be to raise dexterity up enough to qualify for TWF feats and to hit epic mobs and then put extra level ups in wisdom (3/2 split maybe, leaving 16 wisdom, 18 dexterity before tomes, items, enhancements etc).

The problem that I have with toughness is that it is probably quite unlikely that I will be able to take more than one level of the racial enhancement (if that) so it will give a lower return on investment compared to less AP starved builds:

Enhancements (Monk): Grandmaster of Storms (10), Master of Bonfires (6), Grandmaster of Mountains (10), Fists of Iron (1), Master of Sea (6), Unbalancing Strike (1), Void Strike IV (10), Fists of Light (0), Way of the Tenacious Badger IV (10), Monk Improved Recovery II (6), Shintao Monk III (8), Monk Serenity (2), Monk Wisdom I
=72
Enhancements (Dwarf): Dwarven Tactics II, Dwarven Constitution I
=80

Points can certainly be moved around but this was the general gist of how I would spend APs.

In the cost-benefit analysis of strength based vs dexteritiy based, I noted that the best DPS strikes come from wind and earth IV while comparatively, extra fire damage is much less useful. This helps to make up the DPS difference somewhat I imagine, after that it is comparing the difference in DPS compared to gaining more usable evasion, better wind stance and a higher to-hit (if going strength based still have to get dex up high enough for TWF feats).

In earth stance, constitution will be ~30 before anything fancy like rage pots or exceptional bonuses which will give some nice HP.

In water stance, wisdom will be ~30 (before exceptionals/+3 tomes etc) giving stunning fist DC of 41 (assuming 28 wisdom).

Can anyone confirm if Kukan-do (and other Shintao CC abilities) are affected by stunning handwraps and if Shining Star is affected by stunning handwraps? What DCs are necessary for 95% success rate in epics?

[Trillea]

I can 100% confirm that stunning handwraps add to Kukan-Do DC. As for what DC gives 95% stun, I would say about 47 or 48 for most monsters. I have a 44 on my dwarf and he lands it much more often than not.

[Marmaduke]

Stuns are affected by stunning wraps... (sort of makes sense, no?) 95% success rate? Probably a DC of 45 if you're talking about high fort mobs such as ogres and other fighter types; certainly lower otherwise, but you asked for a generalized answer and thus I give it.

[wax_on_wax_off]

I can 100% confirm that stunning handwraps add to Kukan-Do DC. As for what DC gives 95% stun, I would say about 47 or 48 for most monsters. I have a 44 on my dwarf and he lands it much more often than not.

Thank you for a succinct answer.

Can you comment on if shining star is affected by stunning handwarps (or something else)? I hear it's a really good ability but it would seem that it's DC would be a little low without some way to boost it up (30 + charisma modifier). Would it be affected by Dwarf Tactics, do you think?

[Marmaduke]

I'm not sure why you're wasting so many pick on intimidate frankly; noone's going to want a 600hp tank on Horoth, regardless of how well he can keep agro. The issue is compounded when you consider the current bugged state of intimidate.

Get toughness.

Drop Combat Expertise. Self-buffed monk is going to have enough AC for most normal content. If you want to talk epic content, you'll need 90ish, something pretty unattainable in most scenarios, even with CE. If you always run with a ranger, paladin, and bard, more power to you.

Get toughness.

[wax_on_wax_off]

I notice that when comparing this:

well, here's the thing for the shintao stun gaze at least. let's suppose you go dwarf (for the sake of argument) and dump stat your charisma entirely, not a single point into it. that means you'll have, at level 20, a DC of 10 (base) + 20 (level) + 10 (+10 stunner handwraps) -2 (charisma) = 38. if you put racial tactics enhancements into the mix, that's 41. assuming you use a +2 tome, 42. assuming you use a +6 cha item somewhere, 44. i think that's high enough, and even a non-dwarf can get it to 42 with a dump-statted charisma.

with this:

I can 100% confirm that stunning handwraps add to Kukan-Do DC. As for what DC gives 95% stun, I would say about 47 or 48 for most monsters. I have a 44 on my dwarf and he lands it much more often than not.

That in fact the +3 modifier from a 6 point investment into charisma on a monk will actually hit the DC right in the sweet spot where you are getting a massive return on investment (from saving 20% of the time to saving 5% of the time, 4x as good, depending on what the save actually is of course).

[wax_on_wax_off]

I'm not sure why you're wasting so many pick on intimidate frankly; noone's going to want a 600hp tank on Horoth, regardless of how well he can keep agro. The issue is compounded when you consider the current bugged state of intimidate.

Get toughness.

Drop Combat Expertise. Self-buffed monk is going to have enough AC for most normal content. If you want to talk epic content, you'll need 90ish, something pretty unattainable in most scenarios, even with CE. If you always run with a ranger, paladin, and bard, more power to you.

Get toughness.

Combat expertise is to qualify for Shintao. Combat Expertise is probably the most useful feat on the Shintao list, imo.

Regarding intimidate, well, hopefully it'll get better. Intimidate has received quite a lot of love from the devs lately and it is obvious that they want to encourage its use (paladin class skill, bonuses to shintao, half-elf double intim etc). Therefore, it stands to reason that these issues will be fixed (maybe not, but, well, live in hope).

At the end of the day this is a character plan and if I can get the kinks worked out satisfactorily then I may play it. I've wanted to try an intimitank for such a long time but just haven't been able to do it to my satisfaction. I see an opportunity here.