Any chance a sword and board pally will work?

[eonfreon]

Think so, yes.
And if you get the +2 from guild ship buffs (which not everyone has, keep in mind), I'm assuming you can also get the +stat buffs while there, or even drink a yugo pot or something. They tend to go together.

I think 12-14 is the sweet spot IMO. Which is also why I favor THF on the S&B setup. S&B + TWF = some wasted dex. S&B + THF synergizes much better.

Understood. A TWF would rather never have to go S&B unless absolutely necessary. But AC-wise, if he needed AC, he would equal a "ideal" AC THF given the same configuration and perhaps exceed by a point, depending on gear.
The THF Dwarf would have the dps edge over a TWF Dwarf if both were forced into S&B, because the free Dwarven Axe synergizes well with THF Feats and chances are has a slightly higher Str (depends though, with such a high Dex of 12-14, he might not actually).

[RTN]

Understood. A TWF would rather never have to go S&B unless absolutely necessary. But AC-wise, if he needed AC, he would equal a "ideal" AC THF given the same configuration and perhaps exceed by a point, depending on gear.
The Dwarf would have the dps edge if both were forced into S&B, because of the free Dwarven Axe synergizes well with THF Feats and chances are has a slightly higher Str (depends though, with such a high Dex of 12-14, he might not actually).

Overall, I agree, except you aren't likely to have both the THF and TWF chain, which will make the better DA THF S&B bonuses unavailable to the TWF builds when they S&B. However, if you're just tanking up for boss fights, that isn't an issue since the better glancing blows don't matter.

As Dexxaan wrote on his thread for his very impressive build, a lot depends on the gear you're willing to grind out. Making effective AC builds (and I'd argue S&B) takes some grinding. If you're pure, epic Chimera's Fang makes great sense for S&B. However, it won't work for the 18/2 Pally builds like Dexxaan's (no holy damage/DR breaking since it won't have the capstone).

[eonfreon]

Overall, I agree, except you aren't likely to have both the THF and TWF chain, which will make the better DA THF S&B bonuses unavailable to the TWF builds when they S&B. However, if you're just tanking up for boss fights, that isn't an issue since the better glancing blows don't matter.

As Dexxaan wrote on his thread for his very impressive build, a lot depends on the gear you're willing to grind out. Making effective AC builds (and I'd argue S&B) takes some grinding. If you're pure, epic Chimera's Fang makes great sense for S&B. However, it won't work for the 18/2 Pally builds like Dexxaan's (no holy damage/DR breaking since it won't have the capstone).

Right. That's what I meant when I talked about the Dwarf having a dps edge because of the free Dwarven Axe and THF synergy. I meant a THF Dwarf vs a TWF Dwarf. Apples to apples and all that .
I'll edit that post.

[eonfreon]

You are correct that CE does qualify. I accidently left that out.

I am not so much saying that you are wrong, as that you say shield based feats aren't worth taking. Tower Shield is very much worth taking. Especially if you get Leviks. The AC bonus from it is better than any epic item....its block DR is better than any other shield in the game. If you are going S&B, you might as well want the best in the game. I know the blocking DR isn't all that usefull, but sometimes you need it to regroup if things start going bad.

You also mention that the only worthwhile S&B's are bastard swords. Khopesh is a better DPS option. On a greensteel bastard sword vs khopesh, I am hitting for about 40-50 more points of damage on a normal crit with the khopesh.

Yes I forgot about Tower Shield, but I do think the Feats I mentioned, Shield Mastery and Shield Bash, the other two "shield Feats", are indeed rather pointless. If I could only choose between Shield Mastery or Tower Shield, yes Tower Shield is more useful.

Tower Shield has it's place, because of the higher DR and ability to use Leviks without penalty (Lorriks is the same DR but less AC and less overall benefits) and coupled with the slightly higher AC boost.

[Dexxaan]

What is the max dex of Leviks.....

And you are also forgetting the +2 dex bonus from ship buffs that I have mentioned.

Leviks Max Dex is 4 (Mithral Tower Shield), with DOS III it should be +6 at a minimum. And +6 DEX Bonus requires a 22 DEX. 22 DEX - +6 Item (*of your liking but Spectral Gloves are usually VERY important to gearup so -5?) is a 16 (or 17*), Followed by a +2Tome that anyone can get nowadays -2 = 14 (or 15*).

I don't count ship buffs because they are lame, and a crutch. icing on a cake? yes. Basic necessity... no way.

Leviks is SOOOO inferior to an Epic Kundarak Warding Shield. And you dont take the -2 to hit, as well as you can add +2 Luck to it to make your Skills (like Intimidate) and Saves that much better. (Assuming you use a Bloodstone as you should at all times )


.

[Dexxaan]

..snip..As Dexxaan wrote on his thread for his very impressive build, a lot depends on the gear you're willing to grind out. Making effective AC builds (and I'd argue S&B) takes some grinding. If you're pure, epic Chimera's Fang makes great sense for S&B. However, it won't work for the 18/2 Pally builds like Dexxaan's (no holy damage/DR breaking since it won't have the capstone).

Who needs the Capstone? When you can get 2(3 if u use Tower Shields) very needed Feats, +1 STR and a Min III Khopesh?

DR for any melee is a thing of the past.

Capstone is Fun - and may play with it on a Pure (*shivers) Paladin someday.

[eonfreon]

Leviks Max Dex is 4 (Mithral Tower Shield), with DOS III it should be +6 at a minimum. And +6 DEX Bonus requires a 22 DEX. 22 DEX - +6 Item (*of your liking but Spectral Gloves are usually VERY important to gearup so -5?) is a 16 (or 17*), Followed by a +2Tome that anyone can get nowadays -2 = 14 (or 15*).

I don't count ship buffs because they are lame, and a crutch. icing on a cake? yes. Basic necessity... no way.

Leviks is SOOOO inferior to an Epic Kundarak Warding Shield. And you dont take the -2 to hit, as well as you can add +2 Luck to it to make your Skills (like Intimidate) and Saves that much better. (Assuming you use a Bloodstone as you should at all times )


.

Putting gear aside, because that is something to work towards but not truly essential to a build, since gear will always be created and uses found, the essental difference between a 8 Dex and a 14 starting Dex is 6 build points on a 1-to-1 point buy ratio, which equals + 3 to Possible AC Potential (and Reflex save and Dex based Skills, namely Balance).
So similarly geared both Dexxan and Elraido can reach the same AC at minimum. With optimal gear for each build, Dexxan has a + 3 advantage.

Depending on other factors, that may or may not be useful. It's unlikely that those 6 build points will net much extra Str for Elraido due to the point cost. At best it will net him more Con, perhaps as much as 40 more hitpoints (4 points of Con) and of course it depends on if either have points in Int for CE (and if either want it).
If Elraido split the saved Dex point cost between Con and Str, he may have a +1 to hit and dmg in S&B mode and 20 more hit points.

That would be pushing it though, depending on Divine Might requirements.

[elraido]

Putting gear aside, because that is something to work towards but not truly essential to a build, since gear will always be created and uses found, the essental difference between a 8 Dex and a 14 starting Dex is 6 build points on a 1-to-1 point buy ratio, which equals + 3 to Possible AC Potential (and Reflex save and Dex based Skills, namely Balance).
So similarly geared both Dexxan and Elraido can reach the same AC at minimum. With optimal gear for each build, Dexxan has a + 3 advantage.

Depending on other factors, that may or may not be useful. It's unlikely that those 6 build points will net much extra Str for Elraido due to the point cost. At best it will net him more Con, perhaps as much as 40 more hitpoints (4 points of Con) and of course it depends on if either have points in Int for CE (and if either want it).
If Elraido split the saved Dex point cost between Con and Str, he may have a +1 to hit and dmg in S&B mode and 20 more hit points.

That would be pushing it though, depending on Divine Might requirements.

When I started, many many many years ago, I had an 8 base dex. It worked fine. I did however eventually Greater Res and started with a 10 (or was it a 12...oh Lord, I can't remember now). Anywho, I did manage to take full advantage of the max dex bonus with full plate and a leviks. But now that is also higher because of of the +2 ship buffs (and yes, Dexxan is right....totally not necessary, but they are a nice touch.)

The reason why I say 8 DEX is, for a build right off the start....a 28 point none the less....those points are very valuable. They are better off in Con or Char or Str.....with a very minimal change in AC. Especially when one is normally not geared for high AC until they start getting some raid gear...and at that point one can unlock 32 point builds and have +2 tomes.

[eonfreon]

When I started, many many many years ago, I had an 8 base dex. It worked fine. I did however eventually Greater Res and started with a 10 (or was it a 12...oh Lord, I can't remember now). Anywho, I did manage to take full advantage of the max dex bonus with full plate and a leviks. But now that is also higher because of of the +2 ship buffs (and yes, Dexxan is right....totally not necessary, but they are a nice touch.)

The reason why I say 8 DEX is, for a build right off the start....a 28 point none the less....those points are very valuable. They are better off in Con or Char or Str.....with a very minimal change in AC. Especially when one is normally not geared for high AC until they start getting some raid gear...and at that point one can unlock 32 point builds and have +2 tomes.

Yes, I understand. But then why go S&B over THF? Simple answer: You choose what's best for the situation.
There is no reason to be only S&B or THF or TWF.
TWF requires Base stats that THF may not be able to reach. However, there is nothing peventing a TWF or THF from going S&B. And there's nothing preventing a S&B from going THF.

Gear and situations will determine.

[elraido]

However, there is nothing peventing a TWF or THF from going S&B. And there's nothing preventing a S&B from going THF.

Gear and situations will determine.

You would need to plan on spending one or two feats that a THF would need to plan out for then to be a more viable S&B. Combat Ex and/or Towershield. Not only does that require one/two feats being used, you also need to plan for the 13 int (via tomes or level up or start it off with that right away).

The only thing a S&B should really need that a THF has Power attack....but any person wanting DPS should have that to begin with.

If someone forgets to take Combat ex (or Towershield) and wants to be a DoS then they can't...they are losing out on 9 AC.

[eonfreon]

You would need to plan on spending one or two feats that a THF would need to plan out for then to be a more viable S&B. Combat Ex and/or Towershield. Not only does that require one/two feats being used, you also need to plan for the 13 int (via tomes or level up or start it off with that right away).

The only thing a S&B should really need that a THF has Power attack....but any person wanting DPS should have that to begin with.

If someone forgets to take Combat ex (or Towershield) and wants to be a DoS then they can't...they are losing out on 9 AC.

7 Feats for non-human Pure Paladin.

3 Essentials for most builds:
1. PA
2. Toughness
3. Imp Crit

3 THF (if one desires the full line):
4. THF
5. ITHF
6. GTHF or Exotic of your choice

1 required for DoS:
7. Dodge or CE or Tower Shield or Shield Mastery

May I also ask how you lose out on 9 AC between a DoS and a non-DoS?

[elraido]

7 Feats for non-human Pure Paladin.

3 Essentials for most builds:
1. PA
2. Toughness
3. Imp Crit

3 THF (if one desires the full line):
4. THF
5. ITHF
6. GTHF or Exotic of your choice

1 required for DoS:
7. Dodge or CE or Tower Shield or Shield Mastery

May I also ask how you lose out on 9 AC between a DoS and a non-DoS?

I figured 5 for CE and 4 dodge from the stance.

[eonfreon]

I figured 5 for CE and 4 dodge from the stance.

Ah, ok.
A non-DoS can have CE, too. Or a Paladin without CE (presumably because of low Int) can still acquire DoS by other Feats and use Defensive Fighting for 2 AC (in that occasion when AC > dps) and be 3 AC behind.
If a non-DoS and DoS are only worried about dps then the DoS won't have CE activated, thus only has 4 Dodge AC while in stance.

Plus DoS 3 also gets a passive +1 to aura, right?

[Dexxaan]

Putting gear aside, because that is something to work towards but not truly essential to a build, since gear will always be created and uses found, the essental difference between a 8 Dex and a 14 starting Dex is 6 build points on a 1-to-1 point buy ratio, which equals + 3 to Possible AC Potential (and Reflex save and Dex based Skills, namely Balance).
So similarly geared both Dexxan and Elraido can reach the same AC at minimum. With optimal gear for each build, Dexxan has a + 3 advantage.

Depending on other factors, that may or may not be useful. It's unlikely that those 6 build points will net much extra Str for Elraido due to the point cost. At best it will net him more Con, perhaps as much as 40 more hitpoints (4 points of Con) and of course it depends on if either have points in Int for CE (and if either want it).
If Elraido split the saved Dex point cost between Con and Str, he may have a +1 to hit and dmg in S&B mode and 20 more hit points.

That would be pushing it though, depending on Divine Might requirements.

Hi Eonfreon INT (and therefore CE, Intimidate,Jump and UMD...) is a must on an Intimi-pally IMO and I do not neglect it. Skills points are limited enough for paladins and I dislike uber builds that nee a jump Spell from a caster to make it past a puddle of acid.


If we are trying to compare builds and DEX was the starting issue... then maybe lets look at the overall effectiveness of a build that sacrifices INT and DEX vs the one that does not.... I believe the answer is clear.

If Elraido's paladin hits the AC he claims (Sorry Ship Buffs and Yugo pots and Pocket Bards, etc...don't mean squat to me) then from the little Bui;ld info I gather... the DEX issue is hurting him.

Just my 2cp's.

Maybe a full build/gear arrangement post would shed some much needed light.

.

[elraido]

Hi Eonfreon INT (and therefore CE, Intimidate,Jump and UMD...) is a must on an Intimi-pally IMO and I do not neglect it. Skills points are limited enough for paladins and I dislike uber builds that nee a jump Spell from a caster to make it past a puddle of acid.


If we are trying to compare builds and DEX was the starting issue... then maybe lets look at the overall effectiveness of a build that sacrifices INT and DEX vs the one that does not.... I believe the answer is clear.

If Elraido's paladin hits the AC he claims (Sorry Ship Buffs and Yugo pots and Pocket Bards, etc...don't mean squat to me) then from the little Bui;ld info I gather... the DEX issue is hurting him.

Just my 2cp's.

Maybe a full build/gear arrangement post would shed some much needed light.

.

Yup, you got me about my ac---I know there are a couple things I am forgetting off the top of my head

10 base
4 dex
4 DoS stance
3 Chattering
9 Levik's shield
4 DT Insight
5 deflection (protection)
15 armor
2 ritual
3 barkskin pot
6 Paladin aura
5 Combat Ex
2 Maybar Cloak
----------------
72 AC

1:30 self buffs
1 Haste
2 Recitation
----------------
75 Haste

3 Ship Buffs
-------------------
78


2 ranger barkskin
4 bard song
---------------
84 AC buffed

And no, I don't use Yugo Pots or Store pots.

The reason why I said to skip dex for now is with a 28 point build, where else are you going to skimp? Str? Con? Char? If you want Combat Ex, you need a 13 Int.

[Seihan]

To the OP: I'm following Tihocan's guide for a S&B pally that starts as a lvl 1 rogue for UMD and takes one lvl of fighter for tower shield and bonus feats. Here's the link to it...

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...&postcount=228

I'm on a 28pt build too so starting stats are lean at 14/13/14/13/8/14, only up to lvl 5 now but he plays like a truck and it's been fun. I expect things to get messy at higher levels but my only goal is to hit 20 and TR into a stronger build.

That link above also has a link in it to Junts Paladin guide which I thought was very complete, check it out and good luck^^

[fullpozzy]

S&B is very viable if set-up correctly.

My build
Levik 2 piece set shield/bracers 2 pieces are better for threat since intim is threat based
Mabar cloak at lvl 20
Dt armor w/dodge Soveriegn rune
Dex mod of +3
tower shield proficiency
CE
DoS pre
GS min 2 weapon with incite +4

AC normally hits 74 before any special party buffs.

Intim normally hits 69

Saves raid buffed
Fort around 50
Reflex low 30's
Will low 40's

My Pali has pulled all agro(horoth/suulu and 5 orthons) in part 3 of ToD and a Sorc keep me alive from the metal and I healed him as needed from the aoe spells that hit him. This allowed the party to regroup after a laggggggg spike wipe. HP's were about 700 with teamwork from Sorc was a to proc a Madstone rage. Anchoring boots are optional for him but I pefer to be safe.

Weapons of choice Epic antique great axe and SoS for dps and S&B is GS minII bastard sword.
TWF is nice but feat intensive for S&B, THF is better for S&B for a capped Pali allowing you to take 1 THF feat gain glancing blows and the other feats can be used were needed for the AC aspect.

TWF may be able to out dps me on one person and rack up the kills, but you've got to get to the boss first, trash mobs. Good example, orthon mob right before part 1 boss fight in ToD. I can intim and do massive mob damage before the main group gets 1 down.

Viable, yes, go have fun with your build.

Edit: DoS pre has a couple advantages 1)1 extra lay on hands, you can get up to 5. 2)Superior Defensive stance 20dr epic for 30 seconds 3)Pali aura is AWSOME. Everyone gets a boost at no cost to them when standing next to you.

[Zer0AcmE]

Yup, you got me about my ac---I know there are a couple things I am forgetting off the top of my head

10 base
4 dex
4 DoS stance
3 Chattering
9 Levik's shield
4 DT Insight
5 deflection (protection)
15 armor
2 ritual
3 barkskin pot
6 Paladin aura
5 Combat Ex
2 Maybar Cloak
----------------
72 AC

1:30 self buffs
1 Haste
2 Recitation
----------------
75 Haste

3 Ship Buffs
-------------------
78


2 ranger barkskin
4 bard song
---------------
84 AC buffed

And no, I don't use Yugo Pots or Store pots.

The reason why I said to skip dex for now is with a 28 point build, where else are you going to skimp? Str? Con? Char? If you want Combat Ex, you need a 13 Int.

Yo Burne, just to give ya something to chew on, I can get Acme to 95 AC, 80 Intim and 50+ Reflex save, just thought I'd share. ;-)

[elraido]

Yo Burne, just to give ya something to chew on, I can get Acme to 95 AC, 80 Intim and 50+ Reflex save, just thought I'd share. ;-)

Yeah Yeah Yeah, you cross classed loser. But who saved the party from the ToD wipe? THIS GUY!!!!