Consumer's Max DPS Fighter

[eonfreon]

Again my ENTIRE POINT is he is not building for "equal footing" HP, while you are bantering that he is. His build AND breakdown indicate this. He is talking about running around with mid 500s HP *most of the time. He is gaining DPS for TWF autocrit (where mobs arent evena threat) while I would be tanking TOD elite with STILL incredible DPS, and twitching in autocrit with an eSOS.

I would be:

a. using ALL my feats ALL the time.

-and-

b. crafting an eSOS so I can use it and not shelve it *most of the time.

Yes, but if he's running around with 552 HP most of time are you saying that is not adequate?

It is better to do less dps and have 772-792 HP?

[maddmatt70]

Epic SOS for all raids and non epic quests.

In epic quests picks for trash with an offhand war hammer if needed, epic SoS for named or if the caster is not that great.

This sounds like you will be using picks the majority of the time at end game. Not really sure why not just go with the khopeshes and picks, but what have you.

In undead quests swapping to TWF with Warhammers or mauls if the to hit is needed.

I breifly thought about respeccing my pure fighter for warhammer and axe when the epic desert came out, but there has not been an epic undead quest of note really since von5 epic and the sentenial undead no one really does.

When you run a quest with me I'll equip a two hander and twitch for you if you like lol.

I have never believed that there is a player out there that can perfect twitch. I do think players can get it to a very solid twitching %. I drop the dps calcs by a 1% or 2% whenver I read the word twitching is invloved. I have run with just about every 2 handed fighter 'expert' on Khyber you name it. lol

[Chai]

Yes, but if he's running around with 552 HP most of time are you saying that is not adequate?

It is better to do less dps and have 772-792 HP?

Analyze the situations, and we see that we are doing......

/drumroll

Less DPS in autocrit, yes. The mobs arent even a threat there.

And like I stated twice before now, if someone has beef with a player twitching an eSOS in autocrit situations, thats their problem, heh.

I would still be doing the SAME DPS on bosses sans fort, normal quests (where he will use eSOS anyhow he says), and epic zombies.

I would lose out in eRayium and ONLY on skellys. Trip pos maul -vs- trip pos warhammers.

Would I trade this to be more survivable than a similarly geared rogue in elite TOD, eDQ, and eVON 6?

Yeap. Why?

A dead fighter is 0 DPS. Back of the line.....

[eonfreon]

Analyze the situations, and we see that we are doing......

/drumroll

Less DPS in autocrit, yes. The mobs arent even a threat there.

And like I stated twice before now, if someone has beef with a player twitching an eSOS in autocrit situations, thats their problem, heh.

I would still be doing the SAME DPS on bosses sans fort, normal quests (where he will use eSOS anyhow he says), and epic zombies.

I would lose out in eRayium and ONLY on skellys. Trip pos maul -vs- trip pos warhammers.

Would I trade this to be more survivable than a similarly geared rogue in elite TOD, eDQ, and eVON 6?

Yeap.

Finally, an answer.
Still flippant as can be, but an answer.

And yet I can survive on a Paladin in elite TOD, eDQ, and eVon 6 with 530 - 610 hp.

I guess mileage varies.

In those situations would Consumer not be in the 650+ range? Not in the most of the time Trash situation?

Edit: Oops, forgot my Paladin has evasion. That skews it immensely.

[Consumer]

I have never believed that there is a player out there that can perfect twitch. I do think players can get it to a very solid twitching %. I drop the dps calcs by a 1% or 2% whenver I read the word twitching is invloved. I have run with just about every 2 handed fighter 'expert' on Khyber you name it. lol

When you see the people attacking the cart outside the Shroud, that's me twitching around it.

[Delt]

Since this thread really should be about DPS/benefits of THF & TWF speccing (but sorta isn't), I'll throw my 2 cents in...

I'd rather play a fighter at 700+ (fill more roles), with stats to handle SF pots nearly gearless (better survivability) and single weaponstyle specced (my backpack is full enough).

That's me though. Spreadsheet gaming just won't match up with my actual in-game needs and preferences.

[Cold_Stele]

@ Consumer - if you're twitching all the time with eSOS do you even need the THF feats? I heard whilst I've been away that moving attacks don't get glancing blows anymore?

Also, bit of a side track, what's the swing rate now for 'prefect' twitching? Anyone know how this compares swing rate-wise to the highly technical style of just jumping once then keeping the space bar held down?

[eonfreon]

Since this thread really should be about DPS/benefits of THF & TWF speccing (but sorta isn't), I'll throw my 2 cents in...

I'd rather play a fighter at 700+ (fill more roles), with stats to handle SF pots nearly gearless (better survivability) and single weaponstyle specced (my backpack is full enough).

That's me though. Spreadsheet gaming just won't match up with my actual in-game needs and preferences.

So would many people. That's why there are plenty of builds designed around that. This isn't one of those obviously.

[Khellendros13]

When you see the people attacking the cart outside the Shroud, that's me twitching around it.

I'm still not sure on something.

I have THF and ITHF on my pure barb.

ESoS non twitching on the training dummy is more dps, it goes down faster. Though due to the crit range, I havn't worked out if twitching non autocrit mobs or bosses is more DPS due to more crits.

If you could run numbers for me it would be great...

WF Barb 20
Epic SoS
Power Attack +11
Non epic claw set
Frenzy Berserker set
64 str
Frenzy and Death Frenzy

Glancing hits are at %50 base damage currently.

[Consumer]

@ Consumer - if you're twitching all the time with eSOS do you even need the THF feats? I heard whilst I've been away that moving attacks don't get glancing blows anymore?

Also, bit of a side track, what's the swing rate now for 'prefect' twitching? Anyone know how this compares swing rate-wise to the highly technical style of just jumping once then keeping the space bar held down?

As I showed in the DPS post, when mobs aren't autocrit and are in groups GTHF provides a DPS increase.

You use different weapon styles where they are best applied.

Base twitch is 107.18 attacks per minute with CForces numbers from the calc.

[Chai]

Finally, an answer.
Still flippant as can be, but an answer.

And yet I can survive on a Paladin in elite TOD, eDQ, and eVon 6 with 530 - 610 hp.

I guess mileage varies.

LOL and in those situations would Consumer not be in the 650+ range? Not in the most of the time Trash situation?

"Back of the line" eh?

I guess I can't have a discussion with you without you taking offense at something or other.

LOL.

Im not taking offense. Im answering the questions on a situation by situation basis. Yeah I have a sarcastic internet personality. Who here doesnt, lol. Its only flippant when I disagree with you. You are championing someone who is equally flippant while being just as flippant yourself. I just used flippant four times now, woooohooooo!!!

In either case, agree or disagree, I am using all my feats all the time, where his build shelves some to pull out others.

I am also more survivable than a rogue, and have far more than 50 more HP to account for no evasion. Rogue outs either build in DPS in TOD anyhow, so why not have at least one advantage?

[Consumer]

I'm still not sure on something.

I have THF and ITHF on my pure barb.

ESoS non twitching on the training dummy is more dps, it goes down faster. Though due to the crit range, I havn't worked out if twitching non autocrit mobs or bosses is more DPS due to more crits.

If you could run numbers for me it would be great...

WF Barb 20
Epic SoS
Power Attack +11
Non epic claw set
Frenzy Berserker set
64 str
Frenzy and Death Frenzy

Glancing hits are at %50 base damage currently.

The rest of your gear contributes nothing to DPS?

Any glancing blow enhancements?

[eonfreon]

Im not taking offense. Im answering the questions on a situation by situation basis. Yeah I have a sarcastic internet personality. Who here doesnt, lol. Its only flippant when I disagree with you. You are championing someone who is equally flippant while being just as flippant yourself. I just used flippant four times now, woooohooooo!!!

In either case, agree or disagree, I am using all my feats all the time, where his build shelves some to pull out others.

I am also more survivable than a rogue, and have far more than 50 more HP to account for no evasion. Rogue outs either build in DPS in TOD anyhow, so why not have at least one advantage?

I champion no one. I merely ask questions that don't jive with my experiences. As per my edit I forgot my Paladin has Evasion. My 510 undispellable HP doesn't account for anything special besides Greensteel. No +4 Tome, no exceptional Bonuses, no +7 Stat item. And only 32 pt build, TWFer. So putting all that into the calcs I would be higher HP as well as have Evasion.

However, you still haven't addressed the fact that Consumer's build would go all out and have hp in the 650 range in situations that it is warranted, such as TOD.
Hardly the 500 HP of highly geared Rogues.

[krud]

When you see the people attacking the cart outside the Shroud, that's me twitching around it.

Since I never bothered with THF or twitch, how does that hold up with all the stutter and dps lag that seems to occur in almost every raid I've seen?

[Consumer]

Since I never bothered with THF or twitch, how does that hold up with all the stutter and dps lag that seems to occur in almost every raid I've seen?

I used to get bad lag, then I bought a new PC.

[Chai]

I champion no one. I merely ask questions that don't jive with my experiences. As per my edit I forgot my Paladin has Evasion. My 510 undispellable HP doesn't account for anything special besides Greensteel. No +4 Tome, no exceptional Bonuses, no +7 Stat item. And only 32 pt build, TWFer. So putting all that into the calcs I would be higher HP as well as have Evasion.

However, you still haven't addressed the fact that Consumer's build would go all out and have hp in the 650 range in situations that it is warranted, such as TOD.
Hardly the 500 HP of highly geared Rogues.

Take a look at the rogue HP breakdown I posted WITH the 40 for double madstone and yugo pots Consumer accounts for. 597 HP. Not 500.

597 HP is MORE survivable with improved evasion than 650 is sans evasion where multiple reflex saves are needed often.

Sucks that people dont CHOOSE TO build rogues like this but that doesnt invalidate my breakdown and HP total. You want to survive TOD elite and not be a liability? HP are ALWAYS a plus. A fighter that is less survivable than a rogue is meatwaffles, heh.

And then theres the little point that I have been making about using ALL my feats ALL the time.

[Kinerd]

In either case, agree or disagree, I am using all my feats all the time, where his build shelves some to pull out others.

Strictly speaking, you only use all of your toughness feats when you're below 24 health or if you have Orcish Fury. I'm also not sure why you feel this is an important point to keep bringing up.

[dredre9987]

13 power surges is 13 minutes of boosts back to back

Rage is provide by a caster or in pots

madstone comes from boot clickies

yugo come in pots and have a long duration

if your in a quest for more than an hour something's up

Ok good point on the time I guess. Thanks for the response

[hit_fido]

20 - IC: Piercing

Why does the 32 point build include IC: Piercing while the 34 point build does not? Does IC: Piercing maximize DPS? If so why isn't it included on the 34 point build? If not, what do you replace it with on the 32 point build to maximize DPS?

From level 1-12 use a Carnifex, once you have GTWF switch to Khopesh. Greensteel Khops out DPS Greensteel Two handers.

For the 34 point build, none of your situational DPS/gear sets show the use of khopesh, only ESoS and Lit II picks. You don't take a feat for Exotic: Khopesh. At endgame do you ever use greensteel khopesh? If not, is there any reason to invest in greensteel khopesh that wont be used at endgame? If so, in what situations at endgame do you use greensteel khopesh instead of ESoS or Lit II picks? You allude to there being "plenty more situations which favour TWF" at endgame but don't present any such situations in your list of DPS/gear set summaries. Can you add those?

Do not twitch on the spot, keep moving a round the mob to make sure it is between you and the rest of its friends.

Your DPS/Gear numbers for multi-target trash using THF show higher DPS for 2 or 3 targets. Is that due to glancing blow damage? If so, then is it not advisable to stand still for higher DPS than to twitch/reposition when facing more than one mob?

While zerging runs to level up ~8 haste boosts will be good enough for most quests.

In what quests prior to endgame are ~8 haste boosts not good enough? In what quests at endgame are ~8 haste boosts not good enough?

Because hate tanks and ingimpitanks are often used in raids.

In a raid/endboss situation does this build depend on an ingimpitank being present in the party in order to maximize its DPS? If an ingimpitank is not present in the party, can you calculate how much DPS this build depends on a hate tank delivering in order to maximize its own DPS (e.e. not draw aggro)? In which raid/endboss scenario will this build deliver maximum DPS over five minutes: a party with an ingimpitank, or a party with a hate tank?

If you want more specific DPS calcs than provided with the OP go ahead and request them.

Will you put up a link to the spreadsheet used for the numbers on the first page? That would be a valuable tool - assuming this is the current theoretical "Max DPS" for a fighter-based build then it would be useful for players to make changes against this maximum through re-prioritizing what interests them with their character and be able to accurately assess the cost in terms of DPS loss. e.g. adding xx hp = %yy DPS loss, and so on.

[eonfreon]

Take a look at the rogue HP breakdown I posted WITH the 40 for double madstone and yugo pots Consumer accounts for. 597 HP. Not 500.

597 HP is MORE survivable with improved evasion than 650 is sans evasion where multiple reflex saves are needed often.

Sucks that people dont CHOOSE TO build rogues like this but that doesnt invalidate my breakdown and HP total. You want to survive TOD elite and not be a liability? HP are ALWAYS a plus. A fighter that is less survivable than a rogue is meatwaffles, heh.

And then theres the little point that I have been making about using ALL my feats ALL the time.

Yes, I did miss that point about the Rogue. Sorry about that.

One thing about your point about having equal dps. If you are a Half-Orc with 50 HP worth of Toughness enhancements then you do not have the exact same dps as this build, because you didn't max out some dps enhancement some where.

Basically, it comes down to you saying that 1 Toughness is not enough. I say 7 Toughness is too many.

Personally I would drop the WF: Blunt and WS: Blunt. +1 to hit and +2 to dmg for a weapon that's there primarily to improve the chance to land Stuns seems unneccesary. Pick up 2 Toughness for 44 more HP.