Valiance 2.0- Solo focused cleric

[Rodasch]

How often do these things even work? A cleric mob for example will be death warded, hold person only works with humanoids, and the rest doesn't kill the mob. Say for example one of the caster giants in Stealer of souls?

If the mob is death warded you can always resort to the use of one of the disabling options I presented then melee them to death while keeping them disabled so they can't heal. Alternately you can use the healing curse option the poster above provided. Alternately you can use spells like firestorm, cometfall, etc but really you're best off meleeing a single trash mob and saving the sp. Make yourself a stone prison weapon from the attack on stormreach series and stone the giants then crit them to death.

[Pilgrim1]

So what I'm hearing is that there is enough ways to deal with those hard to kill mobs that I wont be stuck without melee ability.

I guess the next question is how much is half elf worth over human?
1+ feet, +1 skill, +10% heal amp VS. +5 reflex, +extra intimidate timer.

Without half elf and my current gear I will sit around 27-29 buffed.
Heal amp (human + fire stance) = 278% (without guild buff) = 61 point aura tick
Half elf = 257% = 56 point aura tick

My second question is how much dex should I start with, if no longer need 15 dex for twf. Is 14 to much?

BTW I'm thinking of a feet layout of something like:
Combat expertise (fighter)
Toughness (monk)
Toughness (monk)
Quicken
Empower
Maximize
Empower heal
Extend
Heighten

and either
SF:evocation + GSF
or SP+GSP.

[Tsuarok]

Hmm... gonna be hard to not go FvS now.

in short:

Favored Soul Angel of Vengeance I
Prereqs: Level 6 Favored Soul, Favored Soul Smiting II, Favored Soul Energy of the Scion II, and any one of the following: Empower Spell, Maximize Spell, Heighten Spell, Spell Focus: Conjuration, or Spell Focus: Evocation
Cost: 4 AP
Benefit: The only thing stronger than your faith is the fire you use to burn away those who stand against the will of the gods. Enemies that strike you have a chance of suffering divine condemnation rendering them vulnerable to divine attacks, and you project a 15 meter Aura of Menace, decreasing the saving throws, attack, and armor class of nearby enemies by 2. You deal 20% additional damage with spells that deal fire, physical, or untyped damage, and can name an ally your 'Champion', transferring your shield of condemnation to them and damaging opponents that strike them in melee.
Shield of Condemnation
Benefit: Enemies that strike you have a chance of suffering divine condemnation, increasing their vulnerability to light and alignment-based damage by 20%, and decreasing their fortification by 10%. This debuff stacks up to 5 times, and is dispelled by Bless effects.

Name Champion
Benefit: You name an ally your Champion. Several Angel of Vengeance abilities target your Champion. You can only have one Champion at a time, and it must be another player or a hireling in your party, or a monster which you have personally summoned.

Crown of Retribution
Benefit: You transfer your Shield of Condemnation to your Champion as long as they remain within your Aura of Menace. Enemies that strike your Champion while this is active also take 1d8+1 points of light damage from your divine wrath.

blue for emphasis

[Pilgrim1]

FvS does not have aura. FvS are harder to splash. I don't see this build swiching to FvS even with the changes. It's just to difficult to splash. Although you could dump charisma on a FvS...

[Tsuarok]

FvS does not have aura. FvS are harder to splash. I don't see this build swiching to FvS even with the changes. It's just to difficult to splash. Although you could dump charisma on a FvS...

I don't really suggest doing this build subbing FvS for Cleric... I just think that with this and wings and 10 DR a pure FvS may be able to do what this build was designed to do, but a bit faster.

Do love my 1.0 version though.

[wax_on_wax_off]

So what I'm hearing is that there is enough ways to deal with those hard to kill mobs that I wont be stuck without melee ability.

I guess the next question is how much is half elf worth over human?
1+ feet, +1 skill, +10% heal amp VS. +5 reflex, +extra intimidate timer.For a valiance build with melee DPS the 3d6 sneak attack is the true attraction. However, +5 reflex is quite critical in some contexts to having a useful evasion ability. Overall, it's a hard choice between human and half-elf.

Without half elf and my current gear I will sit around 27-29 buffed.27-29 what? Intimidate?
Heal amp (human + fire stance) = 278% (without guild buff) = 61 point aura tick
Half elf = 257% = 56 point aura tick

My second question is how much dex should I start with, if no longer need 15 dex for twf. Is 14 to much? No, 14 is good; reflex save is critical.

BTW I'm thinking of a feet layout of something like:
Combat expertise (fighter) I'm not sure I'd bother with this, 13 int is expensive and being in this stance pushes spell point costs way up
Toughness (monk)
Toughness (monk)With the spare second feat I would suggest TWF while leveling and lightning reflexes when you stop fighting (like when you get blade barrier).
Quicken
Empower This feat is questionable.
Maximize
Empower heal
Extend
Heighten

and either
SF:evocation + GSF I wouldn't.
or SP+GSP. Spell Pen is important

Comments in red.

Overall, if you don't want a hybrid build (melee + offensive casting) and actually you want an offensive casting build then I would probably stick to 18 cleric, 2 monk. The extra spell slots, spell penetration and spell points will be more helpful for you to achieve your goals that what 1 fighter will bring. You will lose intimidate going this way but I wouldn't want the only advantage to 1 fighter being an occasionally useful intimidate skill. 1 rogue at least is a better alternative to 1 fighter for UMD and more reflex save.

[Pilgrim1]

thanks for your comments wax.

The 27-29 was reflex save.

I would ideally like to include a melee focus to the build my biggest difficulty was that on a 32 point, and without any epic gear or +3 tomes, I didn't feel that I could fit everything. If you have a build that can hit all those points (hp, evasion, heal amp, AC, intimidate, spell casting) please please help me out. The build I put up was an attempt to get Valiance's setup to work for a 32 pointer. I have heard that I should aim for 80ac, 600hp, and 35 reflex.

Combat expertise was also an extra bit of ac to bridge the no-epic bridge, and 11 int + 2 tome is not that many build points, especially since I would like to fit in concentration, intimidate (2/lvl), and UMD (1p/lvl).

thanks in advance.

[wax_on_wax_off]

thanks for your comments wax.

The 27-29 was reflex save.

I would ideally like to include a melee focus to the build my biggest difficulty was that on a 32 point, and without any epic gear or +3 tomes, I didn't feel that I could fit everything. If you have a build that can hit all those points (hp, evasion, heal amp, AC, intimidate, spell casting) please please help me out. The build I put up was an attempt to get Valiance's setup to work for a 32 pointer. I have heard that I should aim for 80ac, 600hp, and 35 reflex.

Combat expertise was also an extra bit of ac to bridge the no-epic bridge, and 11 int + 2 tome is not that many build points, especially since I would like to fit in concentration, intimidate (2/lvl), and UMD (1p/lvl).

thanks in advance.

For my first attempt at a hybrid clonk I didn't even have access to 32 point builds

Drow, 1 fighter, 2 monk, 17 cleric
str 8, dex 16, con 12, int 10, wis 16+ level ups, cha 16.
Skills: UMD, concentration, Tumble (1), Balance (left overs). (I hadn't had the idea about intimidate on this style of build yet)
Feats: TWF, ITWF, Toughness, Stunning Fist, Weapon Finesse, Extend, Maximise, Empower Healing, Heighten, Quicken. (Not ideal feats; this was an experimental character for me).

I had a very quick run from level 1 to 18. As I made this character on another server just for fun I eventually got bored and went back to my normal characters. However, it's important to note that I didn't have any gear or anything fancy at all.

This can easily be translated to a 32 point build.

Half-elf, 1 fighter, 2 monk, 17 cleric
str 8, dex 15, con 14, int 10, wis 16+ level ups, cha 14.
Skills: UMD, concentration, Tumble (1), Balance (left overs). (Leave intimidate for the 36 point build option)
Feats: Half-elf Dilettante: Rogue, TWF, ITWF, Toughness, GTWF, Weapon Finesse, Extend, Maximise, Empower Healing, Heighten, Quicken. (Leave stunning fist for the 36 point build when you have a +4 wisdom tome, +7 wisdom item and +3 exceptional wisdom gear banked, you would then try to get in power attack instead of weapon finesse too).

You end up with excellent DPS for a hybrid, good survivability and effective spell casting.

However, another option might look better:

Half-elf, 1 rogue, 2 monk, 17 cleric
str 8, dex 15, con 14, int 10, wis 16+ level ups, cha 14.
Skills: UMD, concentration, Tumble (1), Balance (left overs). (Leave intimidate for the 36 point build option)
Feats: Half-elf Dilettante: Paladin, TWF, ITWF, GTWF, Weapon Finesse, Extend, Maximise, Empower Healing, Heighten, Quicken. (Leave stunning fist for the 36 point build when you have a +4 wisdom tome, +7 wisdom item and +3 exceptional wisdom gear banked, you would then try to get in power attack instead of weapon finesse too).

This one lacks toughness but gets +7 reflex save. Overall, the survivability of this character with high AC, evasion and quickened heals means that you can do without the extra HP. Human loses +5 reflex but takes back toughness as another option.

These builds are always going to struggle in some areas, particularly spell penetration and, until you get decently geared; spell points.

When building such a divine hybrid here are my list of priorities:
1. Numero Uno priority is always the ability to heal effectively. 17 cleric levels will struggle to do this until appropriately geared (18+ is better). With epic gear you can get away with 15 cleric levels.
2. Prioritise spellcasting or melee. Overall, spellcasting is much stronger for solo/survivability and synergises with priority 1. Therefore, I determine minimum requirements for effective spellcasting (cleric: empower healing, maximise, quicken, heighten, very high wisdom).
3. Put everything else into seeing if the alternate style (melee) can be viable as well.
4. Anything else cool that I can pick up? (Trap skills, UMD, Intimidate etc).

[Pilgrim1]

I think I will +1 lesser my human into the rogue version of that and dump str. I think I will try to maintain a intimidate skill as i have a +2 tome and i only need half ranks in UMD to hit 10min shield wands.

I think
1 Rogue
2-13 cleric
14-15 monk
16-20 cleric.

What do you think about GTW does it give more DPS then improved critical?

Thanks a bunch Wax

[wax_on_wax_off]

I think I will +1 lesser my human into the rogue version of that and dump str. I think I will try to maintain a intimidate skill as i have a +2 tome and i only need half ranks in UMD to hit 10min shield wands.

I think
1 Rogue
2-13 cleric
14-15 monk
16-20 cleric.

What do you think about GTW does it give more DPS then improved critical?

Thanks a bunch Wax

Gtwf gives 12.5% dps increase which is way more than improved critical will give.

UMD, balance, concentration ... Then intimidate

I'd suggest to put max ranks into UMD as it will be a while until you have enough gear to have a good UMD skill. Perhaps save the half ranks option for a future TR.

[tgu]

Gtwf gives 12.5% dps increase which is way more than improved critical will give.

I am not sure about this statement.

Lets say you are doing 40-50 damage, 40-50 damage, with lets say 19-20 crit range for x3 damage

You will do 100% main hand

With TWF, ITWF you'll do 60% off hand

This would equal (40+50)/2 =45 average main hand, 40x.6(24) + (50)x.6(30) /2 = 27 off hand

Assuming 10% crit = 9 normal, 1 crit

45x9= 405
27x9= 243

= 648

45(x3)x1= 135
27(x3)x1= 81

= 216

==864

*IF* you had GTWF, that =45 main hand, 40x.8(32) + 50x.8(40) = 36 (still 10% crit, 80% offhand dmg)

45x9=405
36x9= 324

= 729 (81 damage increase from 60% to 80% on normal) = 729/81 = 9% increase

45x3x1= 135
36x3x1= 108

= 243 (27 damage increase) = 243/27 = 9% increase

==972

*IF* you took improved crit instead of GTWF -- 20% chance to crit on 17-20

45x8= 360
27x8= 216

= 576 (153 less then GTWF)

45(x3)x2= 270
27(x3)x2= 162

= 432 (189 more then GTWF)

==576+ 432 = 1,008

=== If you compared GTWF/Imp Crit with a 19-20 crit x3 it would win out. If it was a quarterstaff, club, or some other 20 range crit with x2, then maybe GTWF is better....but it's not unrealistic for weapons to have 19-20, x3

Imp. Crit came out 36 damage ahead

Imp. Crit > GTWF; however, ITWF > Imp. Crit

[wax_on_wax_off]

I am not sure about this statement.

say 19-20 crit range for x3 damage

I was talking about the usefulness of IC:B vs GTWF on this build which uses handwraps.

Handwraps on a clonk are a superior DPS weapon to any other option except maybe khopesh (a feat and AB which you cannot afford).

So IC: increases 20x2 to 19-20x2. Which, without any on hit affects added in, increases the instances of damage from 20 for every 20 hits (1 miss, 18 hits, 1 critical for x2) to 21 for every 20 hits which signifies a 5% damage increase.

Therefore, GTWF>IC:B for handwraps (12.5%>5%).

Hypothetically, 20x3 to 19-20x3 is still less damage than GTWF. 21 hits (1 miss, 18 hits, 1 critical for x3 damage) to 23 hits (1 miss, 17 hits, 2 criticals for x3 damage) is still only a 9.5% DPS increase compared to the 12.5% increase that GTWF gives.

Therefore, GTWF>IC:S for battle axes (12.5%>9.5%).

Khopeshes: 19-20x3 is 23 hits (1 miss, 17 hits, 2 criticals for x3 damage) to 17-20x3 is 27 hits (1 miss, 15 hits, 4 criticals for x3). 17% DPS increase.

GTWF<IC:S for khopesh (12.5%<17%).

Pick: 20x4 is 22 (1 miss, 18 hits, 1 critical for x4 damage) to 19-20x4 is 25 hits.

GTWF<IC:P for picks (12.5%<13.6%).

However, none of these numbers take into account on hit affects such as pure good, bursting, sneak attack, ravager set, seeker etc. All taken together the sum of these item affects will be greater with GTWF than with IC.

This is a general approach. In some situations IC:S will be more useful but those situations are few and far between. About the only one that I can think of is if using stat damagers (1.8 attacks with 5% chance to get the affect vs 1.6 attacks with 10% chance to get the affect for instance).

I really tried to follow your math but I can only guess that you over complicated it. Perhaps make it simpler for me?

[wax_on_wax_off]

=== If you compared GTWF/Imp Crit with a 19-20 crit x3 it would win out. If it was a quarterstaff, club, or some other 20 range crit with x2, then maybe GTWF is better....but it's not unrealistic for weapons to have 19-20, x3

I can see what you did here now.

I think you need to have a look at weapons base stats. There is only 1 weapon which has a 19-20x3 threat range and that is a khopesh.

As I wrote above Khopesh does indeed benefit more from IC:S than GTWF but that is really the only weapon. Handwraps are the best weapon for this build.

Perhaps you can check your math now, IC:S should have given a ~17% increase in DPS while GTWF a 12.5% DPS increase, is this what you got?

[Swimms]

Currently a lvl 20 human cleric (32 point build) and I would not mind doing somthing a little different but have no desire to TR. I have a decent amount of the core gear (Torc, Eardweller, ToD rings, etc) and wanted to get a sense of weather it could be done as a 32 point build and if so, where would you sacrifice? She has eaten a +3 con and +3 wis tome already but I have not made the Green Steel Kamas and would be reluctant to do so without taking the build for a test drive.

I do have the items to make an epic staff of Nat Gan which I believe is dex based for hitting and damage. Is that a reasonable option to melee with before deciding on crafting the Kamas? Thoughts?

Finally, if I was going to dump str and go that route what would make the most sense for starting stats?

Str 8
dex 15
con 12
int 12
wis 16
cha 14


or

str 10
dex 15
con 12
int 12
wis 15
cha 14

I do not have the epic helm of Mroranon so no +7 wis but I do have the exec wis +3 with ToD rings. I am also addicted to blade barrier and would be inclinded to get Wis up as high as possible (even if it meant an odd Wis number while I worked on acquiring gear).

Has anyone else used epic nat gan staff with this build?

Thanks,

Swimms

[Mallus]

Given the recent changes to intimidate, is intimidate still a useful skill choice for this build?

Would the skill points be better invested in something else, say rogue skills?

Or alternatively, if not going for CE, just dump stat int?

[wax_on_wax_off]

Given the recent changes to intimate, is intimidate still a useful skill choice for this build?

Would would the skill points be better invested in something else, say rogue skills?

Or alternatively, if not going for CE, just dump stat int?

I'd say that intimidate is still useful though obviously less so. Specifically, intimidate is still useful to bump you to the top of the hate list and keep you there for 6 seconds, what happens for the next 9 seconds is depends on your DPS relative to others. It's not an autofail situation as its situational. Importantly, intimidate is useful for being an Orthon/trash tank which I think was the main purpose that it was included on this build. Double intim timers as a half-elf helps a lot here.

That said, intimidate is less interesting overall with the latest update.

Currently a lvl 20 human cleric (32 point build) and I would not mind doing somthing a little different but have no desire to TR. I have a decent amount of the core gear (Torc, Eardweller, ToD rings, etc) and wanted to get a sense of weather it could be done as a 32 point build and if so, where would you sacrifice? She has eaten a +3 con and +3 wis tome already but I have not made the Green Steel Kamas and would be reluctant to do so without taking the build for a test drive.

I do have the items to make an epic staff of Nat Gan which I believe is dex based for hitting and damage. Is that a reasonable option to melee with before deciding on crafting the Kamas? Thoughts?

Finally, if I was going to dump str and go that route what would make the most sense for starting stats?

Str 8
dex 15
con 12
int 12
wis 16
cha 14


or

str 10
dex 15
con 12
int 12
wis 15
cha 14

I do not have the epic helm of Mroranon so no +7 wis but I do have the exec wis +3 with ToD rings. I am also addicted to blade barrier and would be inclinded to get Wis up as high as possible (even if it meant an odd Wis number while I worked on acquiring gear).

Has anyone else used epic nat gan staff with this build?

Thanks,

Swimms

For a level 20 character I'd be totally fine with totally dumping strength. For such a build the 10+ starting strength is mainly to ease the progression through to level 20.

Why is con at 12 and int at 12? Wouldn't 14 con and 10 int be a better setup? I'm not fussed with Combat Expertise due to the double SP costs and because the build is already feat starved.

[Zendura]

Awesome build. Would love to see how you do your enhancements...

Also I noticed you took cleric at level 1 ( I assume to fit in all your meta-magic feats.) what level are you taking rogue at? Also you mentioned 4 points into disable and search... do you not put level ups into it? If not do you never have any realy difficulty with traps?

is that litney item stack over and enhancment item higher ? looks like i t must since he has it in there. i wonder though as all . that the trinket? wait maybe im thinking of global item trinket . confused ...

[Mallus]

Handwraps on a clonk are a superior DPS weapon to any other option except maybe khopesh (a feat and AB which you cannot afford).

Would you mind elaborating on why this is the case?

Given the base damage and critical threat range are the same as a kama for the first three monk levels, it would seem to be equal to kamas... and rapiers would seem to be preferable if you have a rogue splash (assuming you don't mind losing one point of AC), because of the wider threat range.

What am I missing?

Edit: After a bit of google-fu, I think what I was missing is that handwrap offhand attacks use full strength bonus, and handwraps do not suffer the -2 dual wielding penalty. There is also mention of monk unarmed attack speed bonuses, but it's unclear to me whether that's BAB-related (and therefore applicable to a divine power user) or monk level related (and therefore not applicable to a monk splash).

[slimkj]

Pretty sure it's just a flat % bonus (around 10%?) as soon as you take a level of monk.

[Mallus]

Pretty sure it's just a flat % bonus (around 10%?) as soon as you take a level of monk.

According to Eladrin, it's 10% to 12%. http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...36#post2418836

So handwraps are definitely better for melee damage, especially at lower levels where the extra 2 to-hit bonus may make a significant difference.

At higher gear levels, rapiers seem to catch up (based on math, not personal experience), especially if you take IC:P instead of GTWF, but offhand strength bonus keeps handwraps ahead.

If you take IC:P *and* GTWF, rapiers pull ahead (of IC:B + GTWF for handwraps) until you get to much higher strength levels. But given this build is already feat-starved, this is an unlikely scenario.

You lose 1 AC for using rapiers, vs kamas.

You lose some stats for using handwraps in one gear slot, vs rapiers and kamas in two.

So for raw melee damage, handwraps > rapiers > kamas. For stats/survivability, kamas > rapiers > handwraps.