Human 32 TWF, input plse

[Thsil]

Ended up going to rework my 2H Pali build into a DW Build. Going to rework some of the skill point placement, still. But other then that, do you see anything truly flawed in what I plan? Str ends with a 23:/ using a +2 tome but I'm guessing it shouldn't be to terrible difficult to find a +3 Str & since str doesn't have lasting effects compared to Con & Cha.. I thought it was ok to leave it at 23 for now. Still unsure how I ended with a 16 UMD though when my previous 2H Build with same Cha ended with a 19 UMD. Really don't see many more ways to squeeze out more Hitpoints in its current state without sacrificing needed Enhancements.

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Level 20 Lawful Good Human Male
(20 Paladin) 
Hit Points: 342
Spell Points: 295 
BAB: 20\20\25\30\30
Fortitude: 21
Reflex: 15
Will: 12

                  Starting            Ending          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats         Base Stats         Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)          (Level 20)           (Level 20)
Strength             15                 22                   23
Dexterity            15                 17                   17
Constitution         14                 16                   16
Intelligence          8                 10                   10
Wisdom                8                 10                   10
Charisma             16                 18                   20

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               3                     9
Bluff                 3                     5
Concentration         2                     5
Diplomacy             3                     7
Disable Device       n/a                    n/a
Haggle                3                     9
Heal                 -1                     0
Hide                  2                     3
Intimidate            3                     8
Jump                  2                     8
Listen               -1                     0
Move Silently         2                     3
Open Lock             n/a                   n/a
Perform               n/a                   n/a
Repair               -1                     0
Search               -1                     0
Spot                 -1                     2
Swim                  2                     6
Tumble                3                     4
Use Magic Device      5                    16

Level 1 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Feat: (Human Bonus) Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Follower of the Sovereign Host
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness I


Level 2 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma I


Level 3 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh
Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I


Level 4 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil II
Enhancement: Paladin Energy of the Templar I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness II


Level 5 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Strength I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might I


Level 6 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
Enhancement: Paladin Knight of the Chalice I


Level 7 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Unyielding Sovereignty


Level 8 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil III


Level 9 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands II


Level 10 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Energy of the Templar II
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might II


Level 11 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite II


Level 12 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil IV
Enhancement: Paladin Knight of the Chalice II


Level 13 (Paladin)


Level 14 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice II
Enhancement: Paladin Energy of the Templar III


Level 15 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite III
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness III


Level 16 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma II


Level 17 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might III


Level 18 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite IV
Enhancement: Paladin Knight of the Chalice III


Level 19 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands III


Level 20 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Enhancement: Paladin Weapons of Good
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice III

Ty in advance.

[Thsil]

anyone with any advise for my planned Build?

[Thsil]

/eyes the 105 views over two days with no input
/mumbles

[Kourier]

The only thing I could say is to swap around your feats and take khopesh proficiency later. Then grab ITWF at 6, IC: Slash at 9, and GTWF at 12 (The soonest you can take these feats). Khopeshes don't make as big of a difference as these feats do. Plus they're horridly expensive.

[Thsil]

The only thing I could say is to swap around your feats and take khopesh proficiency later. Then grab ITWF at 6, IC: Slash at 9, and GTWF at 12 (The soonest you can take these feats). Khopeshes don't make as big of a difference as these feats do. Plus they're horridly expensive.

Ty for the input but ...
Can't take ITWF until 9 because of Dex requirement of 17. I also don't meet the 8 BaB required for IC: slash until lvl 9 as well.
The layout on choice selection was mainly because of such :/

[Thsil]

Last bump I guess,

Either it looks decent enough to not comment or poke at holes
or I suck & no one wishes to touch it


Guess I'll just give it a go, just wished to make sure I wasn't making any glaring mistakes is all I've only been back little over a month, alot I'm still relearning in Ddo from being gone 3yrs.

[unbongwah]

It's a pretty standard TWF human khopesh paladin (khopaladin? khopeshadin?). One might quibble about some of the base stats (should you start STR 15 CHA 16 or STR 16 CHA 15?) or feat order (should Imp Crit come before or after ITWF?). But unless you're obsessed with minmaxing the hell outta this, it looks fine as-is, IMHO.

[Ralmeth]

I agree. Your build looks fine. I didn't look too closely at enhancements but this isn't a big deal because it's so easy to respec enhancements.

[Thsil]

Ty both /salute

[Dex]

Looks good, however...

1) If you are only going to take Human Vers I, I would swap that with Human Improved Recovery I.

2) Divine Sacrifice III is not worth it for just an extra 2d6 light damage, take another toughness enhancement, or human adaptibility.

3) Were you putting skill points in haggle? ack! Max UMD and Jump, after that Balance, then Spot if you have any leftovers.

4) If you solo alot, the LoH III might be ok, if you raid alot, it would be better to have the extra toughness enhancement.

Your other char probably had skill focus UMD. Which is what I trade for at level 12 or 15, or whenever I get to a min II since you really don't need IC-slash (much) any longer.

[eonfreon]

Here's a little trick to align your feats better.
I know you can't take ITWF at lvl 6 because you need the +2 Dex Tome to meet that requirement.
However, once you do use that tome at level 7, you can go to Fred and change out a Feat.
You can get the free Feat exchange even by doing the Dragonmark Questions quest.

[unbongwah]

2) Divine Sacrifice III is not worth it for just an extra 2d6 light damage, take another toughness enhancement, or human adaptibility.

I disagree: you're forgetting that DS III also boosts your crit multiplier by 1 when you use it. If anything, that's worth way more than +2d6 lt dmg, IMHO, especially on a khopeshadin.

However, once you do use that tome at level 7, you can go to Fred and change out a Feat.

IIUC, tomes only apply retroactively to the min lvl they can be taken. In the case of a +2 tome, he would be treated as having +1 at lvl 3 (DEX 16) and +2 at lvl 7 (DEX 17). That still wouldn't be enough DEX to swap for ITWF at lvl 6.

[Dex]

I disagree: you're forgetting that DS III also boosts your crit multiplier by 1 when you use it. If anything, that's worth way more than +2d6 lt dmg, IMHO, especially on a khopeshadin.

Wrong! You really should know a little more before you start quoting stuff like this as fact. The only difference between DS-II and DS-III is 2d6 light damage. The crit multiplier is the same you get with DS-II, not in addition to it.

Paladin Divine Sacrifice II
Giving up some of your life force to win the battle, you empower your next blow against your foe. This attack deals an additional 7 to 42 Light damage and increases the critical multiplier of your weapon by 1, but costs you 5 hp and 1 sp, whether or not the attack is successful.\n\nD&D Dice: Deals 7d6 light damage.

Paladin Divine Sacrifice III
Giving up some of your life force to win the battle, you empower your next blow against your foe. This attack deals an additional 9 to 54 Light damage and increases the critical multiplier of your weapon by 1, but costs you 5 hp and 1 sp, whether or not the attack is successful.\n\nD&D Dice: Deals 9d6 light damage.

Did you also think you were getting an additional 9d6 light damage going from 2 to 3? Of course not.

We've all been wrong before, but when you talk about something you are less than 100% sure on, meaning you don't know it for an absolute fact, you should not state it that way. If you had said "I think/believe it to be the case that..." or "I am pretty sure that..." This is not a flame, I have just seen too many times where people have quoted something as fact, only to befuddle the questioner and leading them to much consternation when they do finally realize the truth.

Anyway my point here is to help the OP, and that boils down to do you want to spend 3ap on 2d6 light damage every other round or so, or would you rather have 10 more hp, or something of the like?

Peace.
Dex

[Thsil]

Ty once again guys for the comments
/salute

1) If you are only going to take Human Vers I, I would swap that with Human Improved Recovery I.

Yea it was a toss up between the two. Does Improved Recover effect also Scrolls & wands or only spells? I tend to think alot of our mana will be used for party Buffing & wands, scrolls & the like will be used alot for healing. Mainly chose the Human Vers I cause I wasn't sure if Recovery effected all incoming healing, no matter the source & to aid a bit more on certain UMD checks if needed with the Human Vers I.If Human Recovery effects scrolls & wands as well.. yea I'll more then like swap to such.

3) Were you putting skill points in haggle? ack! Max UMD and Jump, after that Balance, then Spot if you have any leftovers.

UMD will be maxed, I'd think jump around 9 would cover the base, leaving room for specific jumping gear/spells/buffs, etc. Being gone for so long, I'd thought a little haggle would aid with money woes & all :/. Unsure. Guess I was trying to read into this page to much http://ddowiki.com/page/Haggle
Balance I'm still on the fence Being as tight was we are on our spending points but I understand your point.

Your other char probably had skill focus UMD. Which is what I trade for at level 12 or 15, or whenever I get to a min II since you really don't need IC-slash (much) any longer.

Bingo! yep.


thanks again

edit: Thanks Dex for clarifying that. Something to think about

[unbongwah]

The only difference between DS-II and DS-III is 2d6 light damage. The crit multiplier is the same you get with DS-II, not in addition to it.

My bad, then. Perhaps I was confusing it with Exalted Smite IV, which boosts crit range (not multiplier) by 1 over ES III (and yes, this time I looked it up first).

I still say extra DPS is worth more than +10 HPs, but I was wrong about how much extra DPS it was.

We've all been wrong before, but when you talk about something you are less than 100% sure on, meaning you don't know it for an absolute fact, you should not state it that way.

A) Sometimes I think I am 100% right and turn out to be flat-out wrong. It happens.
B) Dude, my posts are wordy enough as they are. If I had to be like that dude in Aesop's Fables who never lied because he attached a ton of qualifiers to everything he said, I'd never even finish one of them a day.

Does Improved Recover effect also Scrolls & wands or only spells?

Imp Recovery affects all incoming heal effects, not simply spells (IIUC IIRC IMHO FWIW YMMV - did I do that right, Dex?).

[eonfreon]

I disagree: you're forgetting that DS III also boosts your crit multiplier by 1 when you use it. If anything, that's worth way more than +2d6 lt dmg, IMHO, especially on a khopeshadin.

IIUC, tomes only apply retroactively to the min lvl they can be taken. In the case of a +2 tome, he would be treated as having +1 at lvl 3 (DEX 16) and +2 at lvl 7 (DEX 17). That still wouldn't be enough DEX to swap for ITWF at lvl 6.

Really? So they've decided to make it even more of a PITA to create a TWF character with a 15 starting Dex?
What fun. I guess that's just the sacrifice that must be made eh.

[Thsil]

I still say extra DPS is worth more than +10 HPs, but I was wrong about how much extra DPS it was.

Ty unbongwah, I fill the same, imo. Specially since this char doesn't take advantage of DM IV.
As much as Con & Hp are king in this game.. my Hp current plan isn't truly shabby. I think >>><<<

My 2H planned build only has 10 more Hp on it's build & that included a 15 starting Consti & a greater Adaptability Con, to end at 18 consti @ 352hp. The last build I posted in this thread was my planned 2H build http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=283529(plse take in mind that was my first times making a build.. it's been a long time, I learned alot from that thread)) . Compared to the 14 starting/16 ending consti in this build. So I think it looks ok for a 32 build first run.


Ty again each of you
Think everything is covered now

/salute

[unbongwah]

Really? So they've decided to make it even more of a PITA to create a TWF character with a 15 starting Dex?

Well, someone in another thread said I'm wrong and you're right, but if that's the case I wonder if that's really WAI or a bug with Fred. I mean, isn't the whole reason they made tomes min. lvl items rather than letting you take them at lvl 1 to prevent that kinda uber-twinking anymore? Either way, I don't have a build I can test that theory out on, so someone else will have to make the sacrifice.

[eonfreon]

Well, someone in another thread said I'm wrong and you're right, but if that's the case I wonder if that's really WAI or a bug with Fred. I mean, isn't the whole reason they made tomes min. lvl items rather than letting you take them at lvl 1 to prevent that kinda uber-twinking anymore? Either way, I don't have a build I can test that theory out on, so someone else will have to make the sacrifice.

I understand your reasoning. However, unless it's been changed that's how Fred always was. He didn't care when you met a stat requirement, just that you did.
Personally, I hope they don't change it, even if it does create some silly hoops to jump through. They should have just made the +2 Tomes min lvl 5 and really just avoided adding silly limitations that just make Feat allocation a mess, IMO.

[crabpile]

This build does not state where to put the ability increases, like STR and/or CHA. Where would you guys put them? I'm at level 4 with this build, and don't know where I should put the point. Thx